Cell Saga Vegeta

[Doctor.]

If that actually served as his reasoning for why he does some of his decision making such as letting Gero live because he thinks he can redeem him like Piccolo or Tenshinhan, I think that would actually work as an excuse for his dumb actions somewhat as he'd them as evidence to get his point across.

But that's what I'm saying. Goku gives two reasons to not kill Gero: 1) he wants to fight the androids and 2) Gero hasn't done anything yet. You're just choosing to focus on the first one instead of the second.

[ekrolo2]

The thing is though, Goku not wanting to kill Gero before he's actually done anything is - or is at least presented as such...or...would be if DB really focused on that kind of thing... - a bit more of a moral quandary then Vegeta letting Cell become complete.

Goku is right that Gero hasn't really 'done anything' yet, at least to his knowledge (or anyone's, seeing as we wouldn't find out about 17 and 18 being altered humans instead of completely artificial until after the fact), so going to find him and kill him pre-emptively, even if it's to stop all the death and destruction he's going to set in motion, would be a bit wrong. Now, Goku's not exactly a moral paragon obviously, but I bring this up more from a real world perspective - even with Goku being a little ambiguous in nature as to whether he's a 'hero' or not, and even with Jump allowing a lot of things, there might have been some concerns if the story wanted to have Goku just find out where a normal old man lives and offs him.

Not to mention that, again, from a story telling perspective if we were to find out about these Androids that are so tough that even Super Saiyans can't beat them only to never actually get to see them, that'd be a bit disappointing. Unlike with Vegeta letting Cell go though, Goku's decision is passed over much more quickly, and they automatically have a plan to take care of the decisions anyway - they'll train and get stronger and stop the Androids. And that plan, at least up until the android switchout, technically worked. Vegeta's 'plan' though was just 'I'm already so awesome it doesn't even matter'...and then he falls flat on his face.

If that actually served as his reasoning for why he does some of his decision making such as letting Gero live because he thinks he can redeem him like Piccolo or Tenshinhan, I think that would actually work as an excuse for his dumb actions somewhat as he'd them as evidence to get his point across.

But that's what I'm saying. Goku gives two reasons to not kill Gero: 1) he wants to fight the androids and 2) Gero hasn't done anything yet. You're just choosing to focus on the first one instead of the second.

The thing is, if Gero not doing anything wrong is something they're not sure on, why not just ask Shenron? Logically a being who can restore the dead back to life can summarize the the deeds of a single human just for them to know if letting him live is a wise decision ultimately. If what they hear sways them into killing him before the Androids can be completed, Goku can just teleport to Kami, have him re-activate the balls early and then finish off Gero. If not they can do the same thing except learn Gero's location and intercept him before he can begin his rampage. That way the character don't 1) look like dicks for putting their own fighting boners ahead of peoples lives and 2) not like total morons.

As for that ending the arc early, Trunks introduced time travel and that leads to Cell arriving to our time same way as he does before. Except this version of Cell can only achieve perfection by say absorbing Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku. That way the Cell arc still happens, the boring portion with 16, 17 and 18 is axed completely and we can keep driving the Super Saiyan legend into the ground! Its perfect!

EDIT: Goku and the others have also never heard of Gero and the one thing they do know is he creates a couple of murder bots stronger than Freeza who bring humanity to the brink of extinction. I think these two things together should probably tip them off that 1) Goku saying he hasn't done anything when he himself knows nothing about Gero doesn't hold much merit and 2) they should probably search into Gero anyway they can.

[Avery]

The Cell arc, Vegeta at his whiniest.

That was a terrible (proper) introduction to the character for me. The way he acted in every episode following his first SSJ transformation had me question the show and wonder why the Hell do fans even like him. At the time, I just wanted someone, anyone to kick his ass and shut him up. How happy I was when that was actually done, much quicker than I thought, by a blonde girl. I mean, seriously. Not only did his IQ drop radically, but he also made decisions that just contradicted common logic.
I've actually become quite fond of Cell arc Vegeta, though. His facial expressions and "nandato?!!" are pure gold comedy, and they weren't even intended to be funny.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta was an absolute jackass in the Android/Cell arc, like everyone else, but it wasn't really out-of-character because he always had a huge ego, and all becoming a Super Saiyan and even stronger in the Cell arc did was inflate that ego exponentially and horribly cloud his judgement.

[Faustus]

ekrolo2: It's got nothing to do with being unsure; I believe the gist of the reasoning is Gero hasn't done anything wrong yet, so he's not guilty yet and so it'd be wrong to preempt him. It's a valid ethical position. Besides, the characters are dicks, well and truly and meant to be, so I'm not sure why you would treat that as something to be avoided.

As for the topic, yeah -- while I don't particularly mind him or think his characterization is implausible or out of continuity coming off the previous arcs, Cell Vegeta is probably my least favorite Vegeta.

[ekrolo2]

ekrolo2: It's got nothing to do with being unsure; I believe the gist of the reasoning is Gero hasn't done anything wrong yet, so he's not guilty yet and so it'd be wrong to preempt him. It's a valid ethical position. Besides, the characters are dicks, well and truly and meant to be, so I'm not sure why you would treat that as something to be avoided.

As for the topic, yeah -- while I don't particularly mind him or think his characterization is implausible or out of continuity coming off the previous arcs, Cell Vegeta is probably my least favorite Vegeta.

I'm pretty sure a man who's capable of creating a pair of machines who are destined to brink humanity to the brink of annihilation, is reason enough for you to start asking questions regarding what his background is. To see if he's done anything like this before or whats made him commit to such a project that'll have catastrophic consequences. Them asking Shenron what his deal is and getting them gives them a clear picture of who Gero is, what his background is and where he's coming from, letting them make a proper decision based on irrefutable facts.

Listening to GOKU of all people who doesn't know squat about this guy besides the fact he's okay with building a pair of genocidal murder bots based on nothing except that he *might* not be a bad guy after all is insane. In-f*cking sane. Hell, you can even have Goku and Vegeta fly off and calm down their fighting boners, but why none of the other characters, all of which have died recently spend not one second about taking an alternative course of action in-which they and thousands of other people might avoid getting horribly murdered again is what really makes me start hating the entire cast throughout the whole arc and a lot of what comes after.

And I don't even mind having main characters who are dicks, I've fine with Vegeta being one in this arc because it makes sense with his character. Everyone else stooping to his low bar of giving a f*ck about the planet and what might happen to it because of their fighting boners is what really puts them in a bad light for me. Not an interesting way either where the arc intentionally makes jabs about this and actually addresses it in any meaningful way.

These characters are not dicks by design like original Tien, Piccolo and Vegeta are, they come off as dicks because Toriyama needs a bull s*it way to advance the story because even he knows that if anyone put a shred of thought into this, nothing in the arc would happen the way it does and since he's lazy, he can't be asked to figure out alternative methods of still telling the story. The worst part is he didn't even need to make this into an issue, all he had to do was drop the time travel stuff entirely and you'd instantly have a wwwwaayyyy better saga for it.

[Kamiccolo9]

And it's not like any rational person would consider Gero "innocent," anyway. He was a high-ranking member of the Red Ribbon Army, which was bent on world domination. The whole "he hasn't done anything yet" totally ignores the backstory that Toriyama literally just made for him, so that the plot can happen.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Innocent of being a madman bent on revenge and world domination? No.
Innocent of creating killer cyborgs at the time? Yes.

I think a smart ethical approach would be to ask Shenron when he was creating the cyborgs about...let's say six months after Shenron gives you his warning or whatever a good window of time would be. It'd be ethical to kill him if you caught his hand in the cookie jar but not after he's taken it out.

[Faustus]

ekrolo2 --
a) Sure, but don't they already know everything there is to know? Everyone knows about Gero's Red Ribbon affiliation, and Bulma all about his scientific past and credentials.

b) Again, it's not that Gero might not turn out to be such a bad guy (they know he will); it's that he hasn't done anything yet, i.e. at that point in time (I'm not saying this is a defensible moral stance in this context, either -- just want to clarify).

c) None of the above ultimately matters, because there's no denying that the gang -- yes, Goku and the lot of them (excepting Bulma) -- is being both irrational and morally irresponsible by design here: heck, Bulma explicitly calls them out on it (I don't have my copy of the manga on hand right now, but in one of the scanlations online she calls Goku a "sketchy dictator" and the whole thing "completely degenerate"). And you state the point yourself: It would have been so damn easy for it to be otherwise. What you call "plot contrivance" I'm convinced is deliberate characterization on Toriyama's part, which we see verified time and again in interviews and Q&As and such. I think you're being awfully uncharitable on this score.

And if by "address it in a meaningful way" you mean have the characters not act like assholes or have them be reformed somehow, then you're just asking for a wholly different type of story to be told.

d) Also, let's face it: The series by this point is all about fighting boners and clashing dicks and cockfights and cosmic pissing contests.

[ekrolo2]

ekrolo2 --
a) Sure, but don't they already know everything there is to know? Everyone knows about Gero's Red Ribbon affiliation, and Bulma all about his scientific past and credentials.

b) Again, it's not that Gero might not turn out to be such a bad guy (they know he will); it's that he hasn't done anything yet, i.e. at that point in time (I'm not saying this is a defensible moral stance in this context, either -- just want to clarify).

c) None of the above ultimately matters, because there's no denying that the gang -- yes, Goku and the lot of them (excepting Bulma) -- is being both irrational and morally irresponsible by design here: heck, Bulma explicitly calls them out on it (I don't have my copy of the manga on hand right now, but in one of the scanlations online she calls Goku a "sketchy dictator" and the whole thing "completely degenerate"). And you state the point yourself: It would have been so damn easy for it to be otherwise. What you call "plot contrivance" I'm convinced is deliberate characterization on Toriyama's part, which we see verified time and again in interviews and Q&As and such. I think you're being awfully uncharitable on this score.

And if by "address it in a meaningful way" you mean have the characters not act like assholes or have them be reformed somehow, then you're just asking for a wholly different type of story to be told.

d) Also, let's face it: The series by this point is all about fighting boners and clashing dicks and cockfights and cosmic pissing contests.

a) Operating on that logic, they have 0 reason to not kill him. You said it yourself, they know he was part of an evil army which Goku himself fought and has first hand experience with. He has the credentials from what Bulma says and we have a guy from the future who confirms that he will in-fact pull off his murder bot scheme. He has absolutely no defense, and my idea where Shenron is asked by them for more information is just there to destroy any lingering doubt they may have. The characters literally have nothing to lose by asking Shenron in any scenario for more info, nothing. at. all.

b) Once again, if you wanna be sure of what kind of background he is to judge him, ask Shenron.

c) They're being morons by design in that scene. Goku and Vegeta having fighting boners is whatever at this point, its all Toriyama can write with them. But why is Piccolo okay with this course of action? Why is Krillin? The guy who recently died against and adversary who they know is vastly inferior to the guys coming next. Why isn't Gohan questioning anything and just going along with it? Why are the charaters who have first hand experience when it comes to being completely savaged by stronger adversaries not looking for a better way out of this?

Have Goku and Vegeta piss off to do their dumb shtick and have the people who character wise aren't total morons usually get together, do the smart stuff, involve the Saiyan idiots later on once they've got a better information pertaining to the situation and then go from there. Everyones thinking like the punch junkie space apes because its easier for Toriyama to get the story moving without actually trying anything remotely smart or that could *gasp* take actual effort to think out. This IS the guy who's basically got a masters degree at doing this and contriving ways to handwave any problem away.

I might come off as harsh on the guy when it comes to some stuff but the more and more I think about the way he actually writes, the less I feel about giving him a free pass on anything. Especially since everyones quick to hang any other writer who makes a tenth of the same mistakes Toriyama constantly pulls but never gets seriously called out on.

d) The earlier Z arcs managed to do this just fine without completely breaking everything from the very start.

[Faustus]

ekrolo2 -- I hope you won't mind too much if I disregard points (a), (b) and (d), as that's an argument I'm less interested in making.

c) Assholes, I'd say, not morons. It's not a failure of rationality on their part but of ethical responsibility, as Bulma's role in the scene makes abundantly plain; it's not that they're incapable of conceiving of an alternative but that -- yes, Goku and Vegeta are the worst among them but -- they're all a bunch of jerks and/or battlemaniacs when it comes down to it, to a degree (with the exception of Gohan, who's 5 and ethically bound to his father). They're all in a boat where Vegeta will kill them should they try to interfere, too; they might as well take the chance to hone their skills and whatever it is martial artists like to do. By that token Piccolo is presumably okay with it for the same reason Tenshinhan's on board (hint: they like fighting too), whereas Krillin wants to try and retain Vegeta's allegiance for the time being: Battle is what binds them, at any rate. I think the larger point, though, is that they're all intuitively beholden to Goku, so whatever he says ultimately goes; he's their "dictator" after all, in whom, for reasons inexplicable, they've chosen to invest their infinite faith. All this -- other than my own intuition about Piccolo -- Toriyama tells us rather pointedly, or else warrants little in the way of explanation (e.g. about Gohan).

The bottom line is it's not any kind of gross "error"; it's just characterization you happen not to like. You're more than welcome, of course, to say it doesn't sit particularly well with you, or even that it's out-and-out bad characterization. But there can be no ghost of a doubt in my view that it is (purposeful) characterization and therefore that the sense of "dickishness" you're getting from the characters is the explicit purport of the scene -- and not some incident or side-effect of slipshod writing that Toriyama decided to just handwave away after the fact. They're assholes because they're meant to be, but hopefully -- and I think this is the aim here -- in a comical, mischievous, perhaps refreshing, maybe even a little endearing "smh" sort of way.

I understand this wasn't/isn't your experience, but there's my take on it. (Not sure what else I can add, so I'm guessing this'll be my last word on the subject.)

[irreality]

As everyone said, *everyone* is holding some form of the idiot ball for the Cell Saga (ok, maybe not Bulma). At least for Vegeta a) it is in character and b) He isn't a hero, or really, even a nice guy at this point. People shouldn't be so reliant on him "saving the world" since he never said anything about wanting to save the world. In fact, if there wasn't a crisis he probably would be out killing Goku.

I'm not even sure Vegeta is all that stupid, per se, he just believes he has nothing to live for other than fighting stronger opponents -- and he just *runs* with that full force. Sometimes it means he comes out ahead, and sometimes this means he gets curb stomped *so hard* it is funny. I always love me some unloveable villain characters so I love Vegeta as a character even in this arc. He only has his come-to-jesus moment at the end of the arc when Trunks dies.

Everyone else: they do have something to live for and they do want to save the world and they are on the side of good. But it doesn't stop them from making stupid decisions. Everyone was so smart in Namek! How did they all get so stupid?

[soulnova]

We're expected to empathize with his plight to a bit, but I just...I really can't.

Are we though? I sure as hell never could.

I like Cell saga Vegeta because everything revolving around him is so unintentionally funny, especially in the dub. TFS perfectly capitalizes on this. Him making all those android puns and acting so cocky, only to get his arm broken by a girl. Him getting blasted away by Trunks like Team Rocket. And this... this scene right here is... gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwPMFve_oQ

The smug look on Goku's face; Vegeta randomly breaking into a monologue literally WHILE he's in the middle of this interaction; and the dub lines. Just...gold.

This version is priceless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLEaJ0T9Hj4

[ekrolo2]

ekrolo2 -- I hope you won't mind too much if I disregard points (a), (b) and (d), as that's an argument I'm less interested in making.

c) Assholes, I'd say, not morons. It's not a failure of rationality on their part but of ethical responsibility, as Bulma's role in the scene makes abundantly plain; it's not that they're incapable of conceiving of an alternative but that -- yes, Goku and Vegeta are the worst among them but -- they're all a bunch of jerks and/or battlemaniacs when it comes down to it, to a degree (with the exception of Gohan, who's 5 and ethically bound to his father). They're all in a boat where Vegeta will kill them should they try to interfere, too; they might as well take the chance to hone their skills and whatever it is martial artists like to do. By that token Piccolo is presumably okay with it for the same reason Tenshinhan's on board (hint: they like fighting too), whereas Krillin wants to try and retain Vegeta's allegiance for the time being: Battle is what binds them, at any rate. I think the larger point, though, is that they're all intuitively beholden to Goku, so whatever he says ultimately goes; he's their "dictator" after all, in whom, for reasons inexplicable, they've chosen to invest their infinite faith. All this -- other than my own intuition about Piccolo -- Toriyama tells us rather pointedly, or else warrants little in the way of explanation (e.g. about Gohan).

The bottom line is it's not any kind of gross "error"; it's just characterization you happen not to like. You're more than welcome, of course, to say it doesn't sit particularly well with you, or even that it's out-and-out bad characterization. But there can be no ghost of a doubt in my view that it is (purposeful) characterization and therefore that the sense of "dickishness" you're getting from the characters is the explicit purport of the scene -- and not some incident or side-effect of slipshod writing that Toriyama decided to just handwave away after the fact. They're assholes because they're meant to be, but hopefully -- and I think this is the aim here -- in a comical, mischievous, perhaps refreshing, maybe even a little endearing "smh" sort of way.

I understand this wasn't/isn't your experience, but there's my take on it. (Not sure what else I can add, so I'm guessing this'll be my last word on the subject.)

Except they have no reason to be beholden to Goku after recent events. In the Saiyan saga they all placed their bets on him to come back and stop the Saiyan's and he does, after most of them are slaughtered in the process which gets the survivors later on almost killed repeatedly on Namek because they kept waiting for Goku to come in and save the day. If anything, these close calls should emphasize that its in-fact a bad idea to solely put your hopes in this guy, especially since he conveniently forgets to tell them he could potentially and permanently drop dead of a heart virus right in the middle of the fight.

I get that they like fighting but once again, these are people who've recently faced and died to superior adversaries and now a couple of guys stronger than anyone there, Goku included are coming to annihilate them and the entire human race. There is absolutely no reason any of them should be so gun ho about fighting after seeing the types of opponents that're popping up, at the very least they should be more apprehensive about doing. Especially Gohan who watched basically everyone there die horribly to the same opponents.

Its out of character and contrived characterization to get the point across. It paints everyone as fighting obsessed morons like the Saiyan's without any real consideration of who they are usually or taking into account anything that's happened to them recently. An idea which would've later worked to explain why it is that evetually Gohan dislikes actual combat as a side effect of him asociating fighting with death and destruction from a very young age.

As my own last piece on the matter, I'm not opposed to character who usually aren't dicks act like that for a gag moment or something but this isn't endearing or funny. Its them discussing that the best way to save the world from the impending apocaypse is *not* to find and kill the guy who'll start it, listen to the morons of the group that training is a better alternative and then proceed to go along with it without question and later on, without any hint of regret.

[TheUltimateVegito]

I for one agree that the Android arc was Vegeta's worse arc, but as others have pointed out, him acting the way he did was big part of his character development.

But still, Vegeta did do similar acts in the Frieza arc with Zarbon and Frieza. Letting them transform instead of going for the kill.

Although Vegeta was more cunning in the Namek arc he did perform cunning acts in the Android arc with Android 19 and 20. Remember when, after observing Goku's battle with 19, he came up with the plan to deliberately allow himself to get absorb to confirm how the Androids steal power and then trick 20 into not fighting him? Even Piccolo pointed out how much of a genius Vegeta was for that.

The thing was that Vegeta let his Saiyan pride get the best of him more rather than him actually becoming dumber in the arc.

[rereboy]

And it's not like any rational person would consider Gero "innocent," anyway. He was a high-ranking member of the Red Ribbon Army, which was bent on world domination. The whole "he hasn't done anything yet" totally ignores the backstory that Toriyama literally just made for him, so that the plot can happen.

That's like saying that every soldier and scientist in nazy Germany was automatically evil.

[ekrolo2]

And it's not like any rational person would consider Gero "innocent," anyway. He was a high-ranking member of the Red Ribbon Army, which was bent on world domination. The whole "he hasn't done anything yet" totally ignores the backstory that Toriyama literally just made for him, so that the plot can happen.

That's like saying that every soldier and scientist in nazy Germany was automatically evil.

A very good point but once again, they can easily get definitive facts on what Gero's background and motivation is just by asking Shenron. Goku just demonstrates that he can teleport anywhere so really, the character aren't even going to lose any significant amount of time gathering the Dragon Balls and making sure they know what kind of guy Gero is, thereby letting them make a properly informed decision on their next move.

[Gaffer Tape]

I've never seen how what Vegeta did with Freeza is at all comparable to what he did with Cell. Freeza could transform whenever he wanted. Unless first-form Freeza was an opponent the heroes could just one-shot (which he wasn't), there was no point in fighting him in that form. It would have been a waste of time. Vegeta standing up to Freeza was both pragmatic and psychological (show him we're not afraid). It didn't quite work out, but it was a reasonable course of action. Letting Cell transform and even attacking his allies to ensure it happened was foolhardy, arrogant, and mutinous. At that point, the rest of the cast should have strapped him to a rocket and fired him into the sun because he was doing more harm than good.

[rereboy]

A very good point but once again, they can easily get definitive facts on what Gero's background and motivation is just by asking Shenron. Goku just demonstrates that he can teleport anywhere so really, the character aren't even going to lose any significant amount of time gathering the Dragon Balls and making sure they know what kind of guy Gero is, thereby letting them make a properly informed decision on their next move.

If they just wanted to stop Gero they would just found out where he was (with dragon balls) and pay him a visit, destroying his illegal lab and handing him over to the police, while keeping an eye on him in the future. No moral dilemma necessary since they wouldn't be killing or even harming anyone and if there was enough for him to be arrested, he would be arrested, and even if he wasn't, they would be keeping an eye on him.

The real question is why Trunks himself doesn't insist on finding Gero and his lab ahead of time since he's the least likely to leave things to chance.

[dbgtFO]

And this... this scene right here is... gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwPMFve_oQ

The smug look on Goku's face; Vegeta randomly breaking into a monologue literally WHILE he's in the middle of this interaction; and the dub lines. Just...gold.

Actually that video was edited, as Vegeta first breaks into a monolouge after Goku had displayed ½ his power at Karin's.

As for Cell Arc Vegeta.. I actually prefer this version of Vegeta, can't really tell, if it's because of all the stupid things he does, ends up biting him in the ass.