Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[singsing]

And you keep trying to put real world logistics into a series that has routinely and pardon my French here f*cKed both science and physics regularly on a constant basis since Roshi annihilates the moon and doesn't cause planet wide havoc across the Earth. If Dragon Ball even remotely tried to apply to those real world rules you might have a point, but its doesn't. The characters powers are constantly over the top and trying to boil it down to our science doesn't work.

EDIT: Goku also struggles to lift 40 tons, ten on each limb in his base form yet his physical strength alone is enough to smash a planet to bits with a half hearted punch. You see how stupid this is?

It's not real world logistics. I'm applying SCALE, which should apply in fictional universes. Unless you're saying the stars/solar systems/galaxies/universe in DBZ is much much smaller than in our world, in which case okay, then that just makes the feats pretty moot and pointless to use in a fight where you have characters that destroy universes as big as ours.

When does he smash a planet to bits with a half hearted punch? If that question was asked to me, I would say "never".

[Draconic]

You also completely contradict yourself by saying they can only bust planets but then confirm you believe Cell directing all the power of the Kamehameha wave into an explosion would've been enough to wipe out everything. Including the solar system. He also just returned from the dead after blowing himself up, proving that he can survive committing suicide and that it doesn't matter even a little to him whether or not the solar system is destroyed as he'll just survive regardless.

As for Kid Buu, he immediately goes to blow up the Earth until Vegeta halts his blast, getting his attention. Buu tries again and once more, the Saiyan's get his attention by escaping him and he promptly teleports to Supreme Kai's planet because he specifically wants to fight Goku and Vegeta. Neither of them know this and actually expect him to just go on a relentless rampage across the universe while they think of a plan to take him out from the safety of the Kai homeworld.

This shows that even if he lacks anything resembling intellect, he's still willing to put pure destruction by the side so he can fight someone who'll entertain him.

But Cell only said that and, in my post I used the word "could". He never actually did it, then I continued saying that the highest feat was planet-busting. If any of the insane and murderous villains that appeared in the show could just blow up the universe, they would have done it when they started losing. Broly, Buu, Janemba, all would have just said screw it.
Also, to contradict your Semi-Perfect Cell argument even further, he did use his whole freaking power and blew himself up on Kaio's planet. What did it do? Destroy the planet. It didn't even harm Snake Way.
Really, feats tell us this: DBZ highest feat - planet busting (with more effort or less effort, but only that). DBS highest feat - universal shockwaves. DBGT - planet busting. You go on to say that the characters had mastered their power so much that their attacks would not harm their surroundings, but you forget the fact that Beerus, the guy who can use so little of his strength as to not kill weaker creatures like Piccolo, Tien or Gohan, seems to not do that.
Or how about the fact that Kaioshin calls the fight off, pleading to Goku and Beerus to stop, something he never did before when they were fighting against Buu (any form), who, by your scaling, should have been able to destroy multiple universes at that point.

Also, I do apologize for brining in the whole "you don't understand stuff", I realize I shouldn't dismiss your opinion like that.

[ekrolo2]

You also completely contradict yourself by saying they can only bust planets but then confirm you believe Cell directing all the power of the Kamehameha wave into an explosion would've been enough to wipe out everything. Including the solar system. He also just returned from the dead after blowing himself up, proving that he can survive committing suicide and that it doesn't matter even a little to him whether or not the solar system is destroyed as he'll just survive regardless.

As for Kid Buu, he immediately goes to blow up the Earth until Vegeta halts his blast, getting his attention. Buu tries again and once more, the Saiyan's get his attention by escaping him and he promptly teleports to Supreme Kai's planet because he specifically wants to fight Goku and Vegeta. Neither of them know this and actually expect him to just go on a relentless rampage across the universe while they think of a plan to take him out from the safety of the Kai homeworld.

This shows that even if he lacks anything resembling intellect, he's still willing to put pure destruction by the side so he can fight someone who'll entertain him.

But Cell only said that and, in my post I used the word "could". He never actually did it, then I continued saying that the highest feat was planet-busting. If any of the insane and murderous villains that appeared in the show could just blow up the universe, they would have done it when they started losing. Broly, Buu, Janemba, all would have just said screw it.
Also, to contradict your Semi-Perfect Cell argument even further, he did use his whole freaking power and blew himself up on Kaio's planet. What did it do? Destroy the planet. It didn't even harm Snake Way.
Really, feats tell us this: DBZ highest feat - planet busting (with more effort or less effort, but only that). DBS highest feat - universal shockwaves. DBGT - planet busting. You go on to say that the characters had mastered their power so much that their attacks would not harm their surroundings, but you forget the fact that Beerus, the guy who can use so little of his strength as to not kill weaker creatures like Piccolo, Tenshinhan or Gohan, seems to not do that.
Or how about the fact that Kaioshin calls the fight off, pleading to Goku and Beerus to stop, something he never did before when they were fighting against Buu (any form), who, by your scaling, should have been able to destroy multiple universes at that point.

Also, I do apologize for brining in the whole "you don't understand stuff", I realize I shouldn't dismiss your opinion like that.

Broly and Janemba are movie villains set in other continuities so I don't really feel comfortable using them as proof of anything. Even using the anime is tricky because some stuff might or might not be in the manga. As for Buu, Fat Buu is more of a mischievous child who doesn't really like to destroy per say but fight a strong opponent who'll give him a good time. This persists in every version of Buu until he suddenly loses any fighting interest.

A miniscule blast from Buu nearly gave Goku a heart attack because it would've blown the Earth up, him using the bigger ball was just him making it impossible for them to intercept & stop his blast again. Kid also just casually threw it without even acknowledging the presence of Goku or Vegeta beforehand, letting Vegeta to "catch his blast by surprise". Tien pulled this off against Bootenks too.

Kibito Kai and Old Kai don't intervene because they know Buu won't listen to them lol. Buu has no reason to, especially Super and Kid while Fat would just ask for the old guy calling him to shut up or he'll turn him into candy. They were worried about Buu enough to directly intervene, well Supreme and Kibito anyway to prevent his resurrection, let a mortal pull out the Z sword and let them use the potara earings. This goes to show the great lengths they went into to prevent Buu from annihilating everything.

The reason why they're trying to know is because they think a shred of reason might reach through to Goku and Beerus, especially since they know that with the right wording and incentive they can be talked down from doing something stupid. Not always or often but its possible.

Beerus actually does hold himself at bay quite well in BoG. In fact, the only time he lets his power slip is when Goku teleports behind him down in the cave punches him in the face and he roars, releasing dozens of small ki blasts all over the place. He shows a lot of self-control and restraint, in Super well.... y'know.

You're right about Semi Cell not annihilating more things but I don't think he was anywhere close to his full power. Remember, Cell suffered several severe attacks from Gohan, had his body nearly annihilated by a Kamehameha and forced himself to heal it then used up a huge sum powering to his equivalent of Grade 3 only to lose even more strength after regurgitating 18. I realize this is me reaching, but I think all these factors make it pretty plausible to assume he lost a lot of his strength from that, likely only giving him just enough strength to blow up something the size of Earth.

[Sora Saiyan]

Ekrolo2 this is the most impressive thing we've seen in the DB series full stop. I don't see how you can think that the earlier characters had power anywhere near this scale when nothing besides planet busting was shown. Pure Boo was stated to have destroyed hundreds of planets during his rampage, that's pretty much the best statement that we've had in DB that's actually happened.

I don't see how you can claim the prior DB characters can be universal when there's been nothing better than Cell claiming he had enough power to destroy the Solar System. To wipe out the Milky Way Cell would need to be able to destroy about another 10 billion - 100 billion more Solar Systems which is ludicrous compared to previous feats shown at that point. Hell, nothing above planet busting was even mentioned by any of the characters even when they allowed/couldn't help there attacks going haywire in the Cell arc until Cell received his Zenkai. I believe Cell got to solar system power, but that's the absolute limit for him.

[Draconic]

You also completely contradict yourself by saying they can only bust planets but then confirm you believe Cell directing all the power of the Kamehameha wave into an explosion would've been enough to wipe out everything. Including the solar system. He also just returned from the dead after blowing himself up, proving that he can survive committing suicide and that it doesn't matter even a little to him whether or not the solar system is destroyed as he'll just survive regardless.

As for Kid Buu, he immediately goes to blow up the Earth until Vegeta halts his blast, getting his attention. Buu tries again and once more, the Saiyan's get his attention by escaping him and he promptly teleports to Supreme Kai's planet because he specifically wants to fight Goku and Vegeta. Neither of them know this and actually expect him to just go on a relentless rampage across the universe while they think of a plan to take him out from the safety of the Kai homeworld.

This shows that even if he lacks anything resembling intellect, he's still willing to put pure destruction by the side so he can fight someone who'll entertain him.

But Cell only said that and, in my post I used the word "could". He never actually did it, then I continued saying that the highest feat was planet-busting. If any of the insane and murderous villains that appeared in the show could just blow up the universe, they would have done it when they started losing. Broly, Buu, Janemba, all would have just said screw it.
Also, to contradict your Semi-Perfect Cell argument even further, he did use his whole freaking power and blew himself up on Kaio's planet. What did it do? Destroy the planet. It didn't even harm Snake Way.
Really, feats tell us this: DBZ highest feat - planet busting (with more effort or less effort, but only that). DBS highest feat - universal shockwaves. DBGT - planet busting. You go on to say that the characters had mastered their power so much that their attacks would not harm their surroundings, but you forget the fact that Beerus, the guy who can use so little of his strength as to not kill weaker creatures like Piccolo, Tenshinhan or Gohan, seems to not do that.
Or how about the fact that Kaioshin calls the fight off, pleading to Goku and Beerus to stop, something he never did before when they were fighting against Buu (any form), who, by your scaling, should have been able to destroy multiple universes at that point.

Also, I do apologize for brining in the whole "you don't understand stuff", I realize I shouldn't dismiss your opinion like that.

Kibito Kai and Old Kai don't intervene because they know Buu won't listen to them lol. Buu has no reason to, especially Super and Kid while Fat would just ask for the old guy calling him to shut up or he'll turn him into candy. They were worried about Buu enough to directly intervene, well Supreme and Kibito anyway to prevent his resurrection, let a mortal pull out the Z sword and let them use the potara earings. This goes to show the great lengths they went into to prevent Buu from annihilating everything.

The reason why they're trying to know is because they think a shred of reason might reach through to Goku and Beerus, especially since they know that with the right wording and incentive they can be talked down from doing something stupid. Not always or often but its possible.

But they are actively trying to get Goku or Gohan to fight Buu and no where do they say that the universe is in danger due to their battle. The only moments they say that the universe is threatened is regarding Buu getting lose with no one left to stop him, meaning he would probably just fly around and destroy everything in his path, rather than just blow everything up at once.

Also, I am pretty sure there is an official source, be it a guide book or an interview, where the Dragon Ball universe is stated to be infinite, but I can't seem to find it. I will post it when I manage to, if it does exist.

[ekrolo2]

Ekrolo2 this is the most impressive thing we've seen in the DB series full stop. I don't see how you can think that the earlier characters had power anywhere near this scale when nothing besides planet busting was shown. Pure Boo was stated to have destroyed hundreds of planets during his rampage, that's pretty much the best statement that we've had in DB that's actually happened.

I don't see how you can claim the prior DB characters can be universal when there's been nothing better than Cell claiming he had enough power to destroy the Solar System. To wipe out the Milky Way Cell would need to be able to destroy about another 10 billion - 100 billion more Solar Systems which is ludicrous compared to previous feats shown at that point. Hell, nothing above planet busting was even mentioned by any of the characters even when they allowed/couldn't help there attacks going haywire in the Cell arc until Cell received his Zenkai. I believe Cell got to solar system power, but that's the absolute limit for him.

I'm not denying its the most impressive feat we've seen, because it is. Too impressive to waste this early as faddeddreams5 said but impressive yes. That being said I don't believe this is the only time they'd have been able to cause destruction of this scale. As you said, Pure Boo is simply stated to have destroyed hundreds of planets, the thing is, we don't actually know how he went about this.

Did he just fly from one to the next and fly swat them into nothing? Did he take his time? Maybe a combination of both? Explosion wave entire systems? Like I said, we don't see it or know much about it bar the fact he destroyed a lot. He likely would've gone on to destroy more if Bibidi didn't control him and if he didn't periodically sleep in-between rampages, that's why the Kai's are so terrified of him when he returns.

And you're trying to apply real world logistics, science and physics into Dragon Ball, please don't. Dragon Ball has never operated on those and it has constantly spat in their face. Trying to explain them through our rules doesn't work nor does it make sense for the series itself. The Buu Saga has Goku struggling to lift 40 tons, doesn't make sense, GT has him panting after lifting a city, doesn't make sense.

Now, I will admit claiming that Semi Cell can do this kind of destruction is a bit ludicrous even for my point. But by the Buu Saga, there's no way they're not at this level, simply no way I can ever admit they couldn't pull universal level destruction off. The thing with that is that Toriyama never resorted to destruction porn despite the characters being at a level where that stuff would be simple. They constantly shot one another with blasts capable of annihilating things far bigger and tougher than Earth yet when those get knocked away, the damage is usually Nappa level at best.

So yeah, them punching each other hard enough to level the universe is cool and stuff, but completely impossible for characters under that level? I sincerely doubt it, especially since BoG Beerus is a LOT stronger than Super Beerus yet when he fought Goku, even his tantrums never caused even a one hundrenth of the damage Super Beerus has so far.

But they are actively trying to get Goku or Gohan to fight Buu and no where do they say that the universe is in danger due to their battle. The only moments they say that the universe is threatened is regarding Buu getting lose with no one left to stop him, meaning he would probably just fly around and destroy everything in his path, rather than just blow everything up at once.

Also, I am pretty sure there is an official source, be it a guide book or an interview, where the Dragon Ball universe is stated to be infinite, but I can't seem to find it. I will post it when I manage to, if it does exist.

A good point but Buu likes destroying things, if he blows himself up and annihilates everything all at once he'll have nothing to do lol. But just because he chooses not to do it in whatever thing resembling intellect he has, doesn't mean he can't. Especially since he almost blew up the Earth with a pea shooter level Ki blast AND the fact this is one of the weaker forms of Buu we're talking about here.

[Sora Saiyan]

We've seen Boo destroy something without Bibidi, and all he did was destroy earth and he looked noticably pissed when he charged the blast that destroyed earth. I'm sticking with Kaioshins statement that he destroyed hundreds of planets, which to me means no stars, which by extensions means no solar systems. I personally find it totally illogical that these Boo arc characters like SSJ3 Goku or Pure Boo who are only like 5x Super Perfect Cell can be anything much over Solar System. Nothing that they have shown, or have done in the past point to anything above that level.

I wasn't using real world logic I was just showing the difference between being a solar system buster compared to a galaxy by the sheer size. I believe the most powerful Boo arc characters are multi solar system level. It's probably pointless continuing this argument since I don't think you'll change your mind, and I definitely won't since nothing shown in the Boo arc put them above planet busters.

[Kamiccolo9]

The thing about the Dragon Ball universe being "infinite and ever expanding" was clarified by Herms to be a quote about the franchise itself, and how it keeps getting bigger, not an in-universe statement.

It's just people quoting stuff without context, as usual.

[Draconic]

The thing about the Dragon Ball universe being "infinite and ever expanding" was clarified by Herms to be a quote about the franchise itself, and how it keeps getting bigger, not an in-universe statement.

It's just people quoting stuff without context, as usual.

Thank you for clarifying that. Any way, the Dragon Ball Universe is pretty big, when you look at Toriyama's map.

[Kamiccolo9]

The thing about the Dragon Ball universe being "infinite and ever expanding" was clarified by Herms to be a quote about the franchise itself, and how it keeps getting bigger, not an in-universe statement.

It's just people quoting stuff without context, as usual.

Thank you for clarifying that. Any way, the Dragon Ball Universe is pretty big, when you look at Toriyama's map.

The map is pretty clearly not drawn to scale, as it has Kaio's planet huge in comparison to Snake Way, being not many times smaller than the sun. And if, for some reason, it is an accurate portrayal of the universe at some point in time, it's relatively small, seeing as the million-kilometer Snake Way stretches across a large portion of it.

Spoiler:

[ekrolo2]

The thing about the Dragon Ball universe being "infinite and ever expanding" was clarified by Herms to be a quote about the franchise itself, and how it keeps getting bigger, not an in-universe statement.

It's just people quoting stuff without context, as usual.

Thank you for clarifying that. Any way, the Dragon Ball Universe is pretty big, when you look at Toriyama's map.

Wouldn't it be impossible for anyone to destroy something that's legitimately infinite?

We've seen Boo destroy something without Bibidi, and all he did was destroy earth and he looked noticably pissed when he charged the blast that destroyed earth. I'm sticking with Kaioshins statement that he destroyed hundreds of planets, which to me means no stars, which by extensions means no solar systems. I personally find it totally illogical that these Boo arc characters like SSJ3 Goku or Pure Boo who are only like 5x Super Perfect Cell can be anything much over Solar System. Nothing that they have shown, or have done in the past point to anything above that level.

I wasn't using real world logic I was just showing the difference between being a solar system buster compared to a galaxy by the sheer size. I believe the most powerful Boo arc characters are multi solar system level. It's probably pointless continuing this argument since I don't think you'll change your mind, and I definitely won't since nothing shown in the Boo arc put them above planet busters.

And to me it means that he could've destroyed the same amount of planets by intentionally using massive explosion waves or targetting multiple suns at once. Buu loves destroying stuff and making people suffer which explains why, even if he's capable of annihilating much more than he does, he chooses not to because that'd be boring. But you're right, we're down to clashing interpretations of the same thing now and we're not gonna reach an agreement. So, let's just agree to disagree.

[Cody]

You can't really quantify such a feat. The feat is, Goku and Beerus punch each other in the fist SO HARD that it sends out a magical(not saying it was actually magical) shockwave that somehow gets stronger over time even though that makes zero sense. This wave propagates through the normal universe, crosses into different planes of existence and even reaches places that are noted to be outside the universe itself.

This feat can be interpreted as one of the two things.

1) The wave is a product of Goku and Bills' combined strength. The fact that it works in such a baffling way is an expression of their raw physical power so their strength is effectively infinite because the wave can literally never stop because of how it works.

2) The wave is not a product of their strength, it's some weird effect of God Ki (or something) that is divorced from Goku and Bills' physical strength which renders it meaningless.

Now, those of you who are observant will be thinking; "I don't know Cody, that second option sounds like a pretty big reach," and you are correct.

Especially since Goku...

Goku...

*Rubs bridge of nose*

...dear god...

Because Goku matches the force of Bills' blow perfectly and thus magically(again; not literal) cancels out the force that should have been generated, it illustrates that the shockwave is tied to their physical strength.

So yeah, I don't know man, infinite strength.

Another explanation for this strange feat I've encountered has been that the clashes are causing Beerus and Goku to leak God ki. Close to the fighters, the God ki is still mostly harmless, because of the known ability of Dragonball ki users to mostly control the damage generated by their energy attacks. However, as it expands away from the fighters, this control degrades allowing the God ki shockwave to cause damage.

The downside is that this would essentially require both Beerus and Goku to have power in a mind-boggling scale.

So I don't think it should be used to say either of them are any sort of universe busters. But it shows that they could at least hit hard enough to hurt Thanos on the lower end, or Pre-Crisis Darkseid on the upper end. Which is impressive on it's own if you know what the durability of those two are like(hint: the first one was right in front of a recently "opened" black hole that was so powerful that it was sucking in stuff from 2 light years away. Thanos not only survived being in front of it, but was only lightly wounded:




And PC Darkseid was capable of shrugging off blows from Pre-Crisis Kryptonians. Even Val Armorr, who has shown to hit just as hard as Pre-Crisis Superman, was incapable of hurting the guy with his hardest hit.

So at the very least; they can really hurt Thanos. At the very most; They could really hurt PC Darkseid. For you can't say they have infinite strength with that feat alone, it is so absurd that it is next to impossible to reliably quantify without adding a lot of bullshit. Yet it is so significant, that it can't be ignored. And unlike some of the more commonly used "feats" for pre-flashpoint Superman, there is no missing context being left out of this feat. And it is basically one of SSG Goku's first feats as BoG is no longer canon. It is basically on the same level as Superman 4 millions feat of punching so hard that the blows send distortions through time(though he was on his last reserves of power, meaning he could hit a lot harder in his prime, making him essentially stronger than SSG Goku, but that isn't the point here).

TLDR: The feat shows that Goku can hit hard enough to hurt some big time fictional beings now. But I wouldn't say he is universal due to the absurdity of the feat in question.

[Kamiccolo9]

Thanos has gotten a lot stronger since Infinity Abyss, man. Check out the post-Annihilation stuff.

[buutenks]

It was shown pretty clearly in the 12th episode by old kai that if beerus and goku collided with their fists many times,the whole universe would become void.Planets cracked to bits,stars exploding etc.Everything in the universe would be destroyed,it would become a dark void universe.

So basically,they can hit so hard that they will destroy all celestial objects in a universe in a short amount of time,making the universe completely devoid of anything.

[Cody]

It was shown pretty clearly in the 12th episode by old kai that if beerus and goku collided with their fists many times,the whole universe would become void.Planets cracked to bits,stars exploding etc.Everything in the universe would be destroyed,it would become a dark void universe.

So basically,they can hit so hard that they will destroy all celestial objects in a universe in a short amount of time,making the universe completely devoid of anything.

Old Kai said the universe could endure, at max, three attacks from Goku and Beerus clashing, after which everything in the universe would be destroyed as; the DBZverse would be reduced to a lifeless void. They do two attacks with punches, then Goku manages to stop the shockwaves from their punches. But then Bills fires energy at Goku who blocks it with a beam which makes shockwaves again, equally three attacks on that level, and yet the universe remains remains entirely intact apart from one planet somewhere just bursting into particles.

Old Kai is an unreliable guy when it comes to the end of the universe apparently.

[Pannaliciour]

It was shown pretty clearly in the 12th episode by old kai that if beerus and goku collided with their fists many times,the whole universe would become void.Planets cracked to bits,stars exploding etc.Everything in the universe would be destroyed,it would become a dark void universe.

So basically,they can hit so hard that they will destroy all celestial objects in a universe in a short amount of time,making the universe completely devoid of anything.

And they weren't even at full power.

[Bullza]

I wonder how they will top this with the Goku and Frieza fight. They were supposed to be the stronger pair when considering Beerus was only 70%.

[Hugo Boss]

Considering Dragon Ball universe has survived three clashes until now, it seems like Old Kaioshin is not that accurate when it comes to its durability. Perhaps it can endure a fourth clash.

[Sora Saiyan]

The twos fist clashes must've packed more power in the shockwave than the beam clash Hugo Boss Rou Kaioshin wasn't quite as scared about the beam clash, but before the 3rd fist clash came he was kissing everything goodbye.

By the way Beerus and Gokus punch must pack a lot more power than the shockwave it generated since that was just a byproduct of their clash, so they are packing some ridiculous power at the minute. Also, I wonder if Goku cancelling out the shockwaves of his and Beerus' clash will be used against Freeza so they have an excuse for not showing the shockwaves in there fight.

It's strange, but I can actually imagine Multiverse level DB once we get to the end of Super.

[Neon Z]

Considering Dragon Ball universe has survived three clashes until now, it seems like Old Kaioshin is not that accurate when it comes to its durability. Perhaps it can endure a fourth clash.

The actual third clash (with the beams) did result in that explosion of light that seems to be covering the entire universe though, even reaching Kaioshin's planet. Of course, in the end, somehow everything will be fine, but the end of the episode was supposed to show that a third clash really was about to destroy everything.