Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[precita]

I think one of the biggest complaints about Boo saga DBZ and now Super is the refusal to move on past Goku and Vegeta. We get it, they're two of the most popular characters in the series, but keeping the story focus on them has pretty much screwed over any potential growth for anyone else.

What should have happened is what everyone wanted to see for years, the focus should have shifted to the kids with Gohan being the new hero with Trunks and Goten as the new sidekicks, and then continue on from that that with Pan and Bra as the new "Goten and Trunks" with adult Trunks/Goten being their mentors. Even Krillin' daughter Maron could have taken on a Bulma type role for the new younger cast.

The only way I can see this happening now is if only Goku and Vegeta go to Universe 6 and stay there a long time off-screen while the focus goes on to the younger heroes to keep them out of the way

[ABED]

Absolutely not. Being someone who loves stories, I have watched and read a lot and I have yet to see one that makes another character the lead after a long time and is the better for it.

what everyone wanted to see for years

Not everyone.

pretty much screwed over any potential growth for anyone else.

A character doesn't need to be the lead to have growth.

[Sandubadear]

Some franchises use that and while I never read/watched any of them, I say I would like something like that. A timeskip of, say, 50 years and a new generation looking up to their still badass ancestors who only help with wisdom and/or training.

But it would probably be hard as shit to do that with Dragon Ball. GT tried it with Goku Jr and failed.

[Soppa Saia People]

I would replace Vegtea but not Goku.

[Doctor.]

I have watched and read a lot and I have yet to see one that makes another character the lead after a long time and is the better for it.

And what happens if you do find one?

[ABED]

I have watched and read a lot and I have yet to see one that makes another character the lead after a long time and is the better for it.

And what happens if you do find one?

Maybe I'll change my tune, but as of now, I don't think it can be done as when you get down the stretch of such a long running series, the relation between the audience and the main character is likely too strong that no one can fill that role.

I damn sure don't think Gohan or Goten and Trunks are those characters.

[irreality]

Eh, I don't really want different leads. If it happens it has to happen very gradually. Dragon Ball is good at introducing secondary leads by having them have a very antagonistic relationship with Goku at first, then gradually be brought away from being evil through time and other side factors that cause growth. Then they can be a major supporting character. Vegeta was a culmination of that process. They could do it again with another character but it will be very difficult, especially based on how advanced the plot it. It is hard to replace your lead's bro and have the series still work once that dynamic is established.

To be quite honest, although the "next gen" idea is always great for a conclusion to a series, it is sort of terrible for a continuation. I don't want to watch "Dragon Ball: the next generation" -- I'm just not interested. The concept bores me. At least with none of the characters we know. None fit the archetype of Goku well enough to replace him. If they replace him, it would be a very different story and I'm not sure what that story would be.

There are a ton of anime out there that have a "goku type" character going on action adventures. If you want to replace Goku, go for another series. I don't think it can work in DB unless it is a spin-off series, like "Jaco", and has a completely different tone and purpose and just happens set in the Dragon World. That I would find interesting.

[ekrolo2]

I've found that the retiring angle works when the characters run his/her course and the replacement gives the whole thing a good boot in the ass. Best notable examples I can think of Dick Grayson & Terry McGinnis becoming Batman and Doc Ock taking over as Spider-Man. I know the first and third ultimately didn't stick because comics hate both anything good or resembling progress but I'd still classify those as good examples of getting rid of the lead and replacing it with great effect.

Goku & Vegeta I feel haven't run their course just yet and still have room to grow. They won't and probably never will because Dragon Ball just loves its current Clone Wars-esque time period too much to show a Goku who's willing to train someone to protect the Earth instead of appeasing his fighting boner and a Vegeta who's mellowed out about his rivalry.

[Chuquita]

Eh, I don't really want different leads. If it happens it has to happen very gradually. Dragon Ball is good at introducing secondary leads by having them have a very antagonistic relationship with Goku at first, then gradually be brought away from being evil through time and other side factors that cause growth. Then they can be a major supporting character. Vegeta was a culmination of that process. They could do it again with another character but it will be very difficult, especially based on how advanced the plot it. It is hard to replace your lead's bro and have the series still work once that dynamic is established.

To be quite honest, although the "next gen" idea is always great for a conclusion to a series, it is sort of terrible for a continuation. I don't want to watch "Dragon Ball: the next generation" -- I'm just not interested. The concept bores me. At least with none of the characters we know. None fit the archetype of Goku well enough to replace him. If they replace him, it would be a very different story and I'm not sure what that story would be.

There are a ton of anime out there that have a "goku type" character going on action adventures. If you want to replace Goku, go for another series. I don't think it can work in DB unless it is a spin-off series, like "Jaco", and has a completely different tone and purpose and just happens set in the Dragon World. That I would find interesting.

I agree with this. I'm really content with having Gokû and Vegeta as leads, and there are plenty of other series like Dragon Ball out there if one is looking for different leads.

[ABED]

To be quite honest, although the "next gen" idea is always great for a conclusion to a series, it is sort of terrible for a continuation. I don't want to watch "Dragon Ball: the next generation" -- I'm just not interested. The concept bores me. At least with none of the characters we know.

Agreed, although I don't think the next gen is a great idea to conclude a series. In any case, I agree that as a short scene where the audience gets the idea of what will happen in the future, that's fine, but nothing further.

If someone takes over for Batman after Bruce retires, fine, but I don't want to see someone permanently as Batman except Bruce.

Terry's an interesting case, while I enjoy Batman Beyond, the best parts of the series don't revolve around him. Case in point, the most interesting material in Return of the Joker is the flashback.

Goku & Vegeta I feel haven't run their course

If and when they do, it's best to end the story.

[coola]

Like i said in my topic, not wanting to sound like a jerk, if one sad day, Ms Nozawa wont be able to voice Son family, Dragon Ball might completely change

[ekrolo2]

To be quite honest, although the "next gen" idea is always great for a conclusion to a series, it is sort of terrible for a continuation. I don't want to watch "Dragon Ball: the next generation" -- I'm just not interested. The concept bores me. At least with none of the characters we know.

Agreed, although I don't think the next gen is a great idea to conclude a series. In any case, I agree that as a short scene where the audience gets the idea of what will happen in the future, that's fine, but nothing further.

If someone takes over for Batman after Bruce retires, fine, but I don't want to see someone permanently as Batman except Bruce.

Terry's an interesting case, while I enjoy Batman Beyond, the best parts of the series don't revolve around him. Case in point, the most interesting material in Return of the Joker is the flashback.

Goku & Vegeta I feel haven't run their course

If and when they do, it's best to end the story.

Batman's in a rut now where everyone's basically Daredeviling him constantly because breaking & fake killing him is the only story you can do with Bruce now. But it's not an unfixable problem at all. If there's one guy who truly needs to f*ck off though, it's definitely Peter Parker.

Like i said in my topic, not wanting to sound like a jerk, if one sad day, Ms Nozawa wont be able to voice Son family, Dragon Ball might completely change

Nor will Toriyama be able to write it anymore, a day I eagerly anticipate so the man can finally retire from the series (if you thought I eagerly wait his death, I don't cause I'm not a morbid bastard, I just think his best days are behind him) and let some fresh blood come in at last.

[fadeddreams5]

I would never want Goku to be outright replaced. I just want less of him and more of the rest of the cast (AND NO, I don't mean their every day lives). I am sure this is what most people who bring this up also desire.

This is essentially how it was in DBZ. Goku reached a legendary status, where seeing him on screen more sparsely was more exciting than seeing him featured in every single episode. When he actually did show up in the battlefield, that's when you knew shit was going to get real. It was awesome.

That said, I find Goku in Super and the modern movies annoying. And the battles... ugh. >_>

Also, I think Gohan COULD have served as a good co-lead if he was better developed after the Cell Games, but eh. Truthfully, he could have served as a better protagonist, in general. But that's just me.

If someone takes over for Batman after Bruce retires, fine, but I don't want to see someone permanently as Batman except Bruce.

Terry's an interesting case, while I enjoy Batman Beyond, the best parts of the series don't revolve around him. Case in point, the most interesting material in Return of the Joker is the flashback.

It's funny. I prefer Bruce as Batman, but I prefer Terry over Bruce.

[ABED]

let some fresh blood come in at last.

Or just end it. It's not like there's too little DB. It's a LONG story.

Batman's in a rut now where everyone's basically Daredeviling him constantly because breaking & fake killing him is the only story you can do with Bruce now. But it's not an unfixable problem at all. If there's one guy who truly needs to f*ck off though, it's definitely Peter Parker.

Disagree, while a long running series can become stagnant, many will claim that there are no more stories to tell, and then a story like The Court of Owls comes along.

Nah, I still want peter. I don't want a convoluted Doc Ock Spidey or Peter with an ethnicity change.

Bruce is the one true Batman, no one has the emotional connection with that persona that he does. It just doesn't resonate, even with Dick. Dick as his own man, and not just in Bruce's shadow is a great story.

Also, I think Gohan COULD have served as a good co-lead if he was better developed after the Cell Games, but eh.

Gohan's problem was never a lack of development. He was developed, but not always in the best ways.

[Lord Beerus]

I would replace Vegtea but not Goku.

Honestly, the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta is so awesomely unique that I can't see Goku going on any kind of new adventures without Vegeta by his side.

As for the OP, no, there is still more you can do with Goku and Vegeta as the lead characters. They are the Big 2 of Dragon Ball and you really can't imagine any adventure without the both of them spearheading. But that doesn't meant in circumstance the supporting casts significance should diminished or that a new generation of character of could never work.

[ekrolo2]

let some fresh blood come in at last.

Or just end it. It's not like there's too little DB. It's a LONG story.

Batman's in a rut now where everyone's basically Daredeviling him constantly because breaking & fake killing him is the only story you can do with Bruce now. But it's not an unfixable problem at all. If there's one guy who truly needs to f*ck off though, it's definitely Peter Parker.

Disagree, while a long running series can become stagnant, many will claim that there are no more stories to tell, and then a story like The Court of Owls comes along.

Nah, I still want peter. I don't want a convoluted Doc Ock Spidey or Peter with an ethnicity change.

Bruce is the one true Batman, no one has the emotional connection with that persona that he does. It just doesn't resonate, even with Dick. Dick as his own man, and not just in Bruce's shadow is a great story.

Also, I think Gohan COULD have served as a good co-lead if he was better developed after the Cell Games, but eh.

Gohan's problem was never a lack of development. He was developed, but not always in the best ways.

Oh I won't disagree with you there, Court was great and Endgame is easily one of the best Batman vs Joker stories of all time. But in the last few years, he's been faked killed twice in the comics (Final Crisis, Endgame), twice in other movie (Rises, Arkham Knight Rider) and they've replaced him thrice (Dick, Gordon, Blake). Sure in-between we've gotten some good stuff like Tomasi & Gleason's masterful run on Batman & Robin, the Grayson comic, Stewart Batgirl but Bruce himself seems to be in a rut where killing & replacing him is the ultimate endgame (hahahaha) of every story arc.

As for Peter, he lost all relevance 30 years ago. At least Dock Ock was hilariously over the top in how he acted and actually got stuff done even inf Slott had to destroy all his work just to make Peter look good in the end.

[ABED]

I definitely agree that DB could use its other characters to better use. One of my favorite shows is Scrubs, and one of the reasons is its supporting cast, which it uses to great effect.

I agree, the fake out death is overused, but ultimately it has to come back to Bruce and Peter and Goku, as they are the characters the audience has the history and the most emotional connection to.

[fadeddreams5]

Gohan's problem was never a lack of development. He was developed, but not always in the best ways.

That's what I mean. Specifically, after the Cell Games. He could have been developed into a distinctive character from what we saw in the Buu saga.

[ABED]

Gohan's problem was never a lack of development. He was developed, but not always in the best ways.

That's what I mean. Specifically, after the Cell Games. He could have been developed into a distinctive character from what we saw in the Buu saga.

He doesn't need to be the lead to do that.

[irreality]

Nor will Toriyama be able to write it anymore, a day I eagerly anticipate so the man can finally retire from the series (if you thought I eagerly wait his death, I don't cause I'm not a morbid bastard, I just think his best days are behind him) and let some fresh blood come in at last.

I don't really want Dragon Ball not written or designed at least a *little* bit by Toriyama. If I wanted to read a different author, I'd read a different author. Fanfiction/fanart aside, of course. I mean, what is the point?

We've had like 15 years without Toriyama's involvement in DB. I know what that is like already. I don't need to eagerly await it because I already lived through it.

I definitely agree that DB could use its other characters to better use. One of my favorite shows is Scrubs, and one of the reasons is its supporting cast, which it uses to great effect.

Funny you mentioned Scrubs, this thread made me think of Season 9 of Scrubs, and how it just didn't work. I'm fine with the dynamic of earlier seasons: you have a few principals and really strong supporting characters. And I will never complain about more scenes (whether fighting or slice of life) with the other characters.