Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Old kai was talking about fist clash,not the beam struggle.

Plus it was already showed what would happen if the third punch wouldnt have been canceled.Destruction of all celestial objects in the universe.

The beam struggle may be different.

[Cody]

Thanos has gotten a lot stronger since Infinity Abyss, man. Check out the post-Annihilation stuff.

Not really in terms of durability. That, along with taking hits from a galaxy buster called Odin(wasn't using his full power on Thanos of course, but the first attack took out someone as durable as Silver Surfer, but not Thanos. And while Odin was hitting him with a more powerful, continuous, beam of energy, Thanos waded right through it and grabbed his hand. He was messed up, but to survive a galaxy busters "weak" attack like that is an impressive feat)? And having a casual multi galaxy buster called Galactus compliments Thanos on his personal shields for forcing Galactus to actually put in some effort into his "weak" attack, and that it was the strongest shield he has ever come across.

Those are his top 3 feats of durability. He hasn't gotten much tougher.

Beerus could likely take him now. As weird as the feat was, we know they at least hit in the same general tier has a PC Kryptonian. Maybe a little bit below, or a little more, but they are at least near that level. And if their ki attacks prove to be on a scale similar, if not above, that level of striking power? Shit son.

They aren't taking a PC Kryptonian btw. PC Kryptonians have radically superior speed, and I don't think that gap will shrink too much, even by the end of DBS. But the reason Thanos can take a PC Kryptonian is due to his telepathy, his durability is capable of letting him survive long enough to hit someone like PC Superman with a mind whammy before he is koed or killed. While Beerus, on the other hand, ccould not only hit him roughly as hard as a PC Krptonian, while dishing out potentially more powerful energy attacks on top of that. Combined that with him now seeming to have a form of telepathy himself? A mind whammy might not be something that could take him out as fast as it would on PC Superman, who is actually weak against that type of thing. At least not before Beerus could kill or ko him before hand.

It's basically this thing where, SSG Goku and Beerus are now on a similar tier as PC Kryptonians, but in a way that; they can take out the guys that PC Kryptonians couldn't take out, yet cannot take PC Kryptonians themselves. Which is awesome in itself.

[Kamiccolo9]

No offense, but you're arguing with the wrong guy when it comes to Marvel, especially the cosmic stuff Thanos has the ultimate durability feat : he's banned from death. Like, total immortality/will regenerate from nothing. Death literally will not let him into her realm.

At least before Secret Wars, anyway. But nothing has indicated otherwise, and nothing's really come close to killing him since then.

All the info you're bringing up is pre-Annihilation, nearly 10 years out of date. Blood and Thunder, where he fought Odin, was only shortly after the Infinity crossovers, and way before Infinity Abyss. He got a huge boost in the Thanos Imperative. I'd actually be very interested in a rematch between Thanos and Odin at this point.

[Helios518]

Thanos has gotten a lot stronger since Infinity Abyss, man. Check out the post-Annihilation stuff.

They aren't taking a PC Kryptonian btw. PC Kryptonians have radically superior speed, and I don't think that gap will shrink too much, even by the end of DBS. But the reason Thanos can take a PC Kryptonian is due to his telepathy, his durability is capable of letting him survive long enough to hit someone like PC Superman with a mind whammy before he is koed or killed. While Beerus, on the other hand, ccould not only hit him roughly as hard as a PC Krptonian, while dishing out potentially more powerful energy attacks on top of that. Combined that with him now seeming to have a form of telepathy himself? A mind whammy might not be something that could take him out as fast as it would on PC Superman, who is actually weak against that type of thing. At least not before Beerus could kill or ko him before hand.


It's basically this thing where, SSG Goku and Beerus are now on a similar tier as PC Kryptonians, but in a way that; they can take out the guys that PC Kryptonians couldn't take out, yet cannot take PC Kryptonians themselves. Which is awesome in itself.

What are there speed? Because even Roshi and Krillin did a one second match that included them playing around and fighting.

[Cody]

No offense, but you're arguing with the wrong guy when it comes to Marvel, especially the cosmic stuff Thanos has the ultimate durability feat : he's banned from death.

Well , yea. I know that. But he can still be koed and sent to the underworld. He'd just come right back. Or he'd just be koed. That is more or less what I was getting at.

All the info you're bringing up is pre-Annihilation, nearly 10 years out of date. Blood and Thunder, where he fought Odin, was only shortly after the Infinity crossovers, and way before Infinity Abyss. He got a huge boost in the Thanos Imperative. I'd actually be very interested in a rematch between Thanos and Odin at this point.

He isn't that much more powerful. He'd need to show us that he is radically more powerful. Feats are key, not benefit of the doubt. He'd still be stomped by Odin, who can bust a galaxy. Those old feats? Are the best feats he's ever had in his entire history. Just because he is supposed to be more durable, doesn't mean the feats will match. Know what I mean?

[Bullza]

I saw this and found it pretty interesting.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... 9286u6.png

Someone tried to determine how much the weights Goku lifted on King Kai's planet would be if they were either made out if Iron or the same material as the 10 ton Armband weights.

Thoughts on this?

[Cody]

Thanos has gotten a lot stronger since Infinity Abyss, man. Check out the post-Annihilation stuff.

They aren't taking a PC Kryptonian btw. PC Kryptonians have radically superior speed, and I don't think that gap will shrink too much, even by the end of DBS. But the reason Thanos can take a PC Kryptonian is due to his telepathy, his durability is capable of letting him survive long enough to hit someone like PC Superman with a mind whammy before he is koed or killed. While Beerus, on the other hand, ccould not only hit him roughly as hard as a PC Krptonian, while dishing out potentially more powerful energy attacks on top of that. Combined that with him now seeming to have a form of telepathy himself? A mind whammy might not be something that could take him out as fast as it would on PC Superman, who is actually weak against that type of thing. At least not before Beerus could kill or ko him before hand.


It's basically this thing where, SSG Goku and Beerus are now on a similar tier as PC Kryptonians, but in a way that; they can take out the guys that PC Kryptonians couldn't take out, yet cannot take PC Kryptonians themselves. Which is awesome in itself.

What are there speed? Because even Roshi and Krillin did a one second match that included them playing around and fighting.

What Roshi and Krillin performed was supersonic speed. PC Superman moves so fast that he can go through time easier than Wally West can. He's about as fast as Hunter Zolomon, The Runner, and Pre-crisis Barry, who are all fast enough to make stupidly MFTL beings like Wally, Gladiator, and Surfer look like statues in comparison. And Wally, Gladiator, And Surfer are so fast, that they make the current canon DB cast look like statues in comparison.

[Cody]

I saw this and found it pretty interesting.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... 9286u6.png

Someone tried to determine how much the weights Goku lifted on King Kai's planet would be if they were either made out if Iron or the same material as the 10 ton Armband weights.

Thoughts on this?

Not good because, like most scans trying to get the scale of things, it tries to measure something based on visual representation at the current angle, while using how much friggin pixels it takes up.

Most calcs that try to pull that aren't very reliable whatsoever.

[Helios518]

What are there speed? Because even Roshi and Krillin did a one second match that included them playing around and fighting.

What Roshi and Krillin performed was supersonic speed. PC Superman moves so fast that he can go through time easier than Wally West can. He's about as fast as Hunter Zolomon, The Runner, and Pre-crisis Barry, who are all fast enough to make stupidly MFTL beings like Wally, Gladiator, and Surfer look like statues in comparison. And Wally, Gladiator, And Surfer are so fast, that they make the current canon DB cast look like statues in comparison.

How much faster are they compared to light? What about Goku as a kid, he was on the ground not moving while a laser was going towards him and he dodged it Also when Kid Goku out speeded a solar flare to get Roshi's sunglasses while Roshi and hitting Tien.

[Kamiccolo9]

No offense, but you're arguing with the wrong guy when it comes to Marvel, especially the cosmic stuff Thanos has the ultimate durability feat : he's banned from death.

Well , yea. I know that. But he can still be koed and sent to the underworld. He'd just come right back. Or he'd just be koed. That is more or less what I was getting at.

All the info you're bringing up is pre-Annihilation, nearly 10 years out of date. Blood and Thunder, where he fought Odin, was only shortly after the Infinity crossovers, and way before Infinity Abyss. He got a huge boost in the Thanos Imperative. I'd actually be very interested in a rematch between Thanos and Odin at this point.

He isn't that much more powerful. He'd need to show us that he is radically more powerful. Feats are key, not benefit of the doubt. He'd still be stomped by Odin, who can bust a galaxy. Those old feats? Are the best feats he's ever had in his entire history. Just because he is supposed to be more durable, doesn't mean the feats will match. Know what I mean?

The only time TTI-ere Thanos was ever KO'd was immediately after his regeneration from the cocoon, when he hadn't fully recovered yet. Following that, he was "killed" by Drax, and immediately fully regenerated. He didn't "go to the underworld," because he's literally banned from going there. Death won't let him. As for feats, in Guardians of the Galaxy, Volume 3, #18, when he's trapped in the Cancerverse, he's shrugging off blasts from a Cosmic Cube, and the Cubes are superior to the Odin Force. In Thanos: Samaritan, the story right after the one you referenced where he fights Galactus, he defeats the Beyonder. In last year's Thanos Annual by Jim Starlin, who created Thanos, it is shown that his power is continuously growing, and that he will eventually end up as a mid-tier abstract, on par with Celestials. The guy tanked multiple screams by Black Bolt at point-blank range in Infinity. You also left out his impressive tanking of Omega's attack in Infinity Abyss, which is notable because Omega was said to be "about twice as powerful as Galactus." Even if that is hyperbole, anyone in that general range is much stronger than Odin.

Honestly, while I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, I believe Thanos got a pretty substantial power boost after the Cosmic Power storyline, where he stole information and equipment from Tyrant. That would explain a lot, especially the Omega and Beyonder fights, as well as him being able to knock a well-fed Galactus on his ass in the Hunger storyline. Then, in The Thanos Imperative, we see the guy rip through a team of immortal alternate-reality Avengers, including manhandling Lord Mar-vel, who was well above Nova Prime, who defeated Annihilus, who was stronger than most Heralds of Galactus.

So no, while he hasn't gotten an explicit in-storyline power boost, it's undeniable that there's been a gradual escalation of the guy's feats lately, especially considering how several other characters seem somewhat depowered from their Classic incarnations. Thanos just keeps getting stronger and stronger.

I don't deny that Odin could beat current Thanos, but I would argue that Odin can't put him down. It'd be a great fight.

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Uh, Dragon Ball. Yeah. Um....Goku can punch real hard now, right?

[pacz360]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

[Kamiccolo9]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

[pacz360]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

Idk really depends on the level of the reality warper,telepath imo i feel like he could speedblitz some of them before they do serious damage unless of course they're around his level of power and speed then they can not disagreeing you there.

[Kamiccolo9]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

Idk really depends on the level of the reality warper,telepath imo i feel like he could speedblitz some of them before they do serious damage unless of course they're around his level of power and speed then they can not disagreeing you there.

"Speedblitzing" doesn't really apply in most of these cases.

"Think>Instadeath" is still faster than "Think>Electrical impulses travel to muscles and muscles contract and person moves>Death."

Plenty of people throw around the term "speedblitz," but, regardless of how fast the actual attack itself is, the entire process is slower than merely thinking. And that's all that most of the reality warpers and telepaths we're talking about need.

Not to mention, I don't know if you are an avid comic reader, but I can assure you that I am. 9 times out of 10, a "Speed blitz" doesn't work.

[Neon Z]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

Dragonball's power set also includes high enough ki often canceling other special abilities though, like Chaotzu's telekinesis having no effect against Nappa, or Vegetto keeping his consciousness and power as a candy.

[Blackstripe]

To be honest, Odin isn't really galaxy level. That is a very common and unfortunate misinterpretation of a scene from the comics, where people assume a group of worlds being covered in darkness relates to them being destroyed. The author of that scene in question and the one that was writing Odin at the time said that he never wrote Odin to be capable of destroying a galaxy and that, while powerful, he was a "God" with clearly defined limits on what he could do.

So...yeah.

[Saiyan007]

"Think>Instadeath" is still faster than "Think>Electrical impulses travel to muscles and muscles contract and person moves>Death."

Plenty of people throw around the term "speedblitz," but, regardless of how fast the actual attack itself is, the entire process is slower than merely thinking. And that's all that most of the reality warpers and telepaths we're talking about need.

Not to mention, I don't know if you are an avid comic reader, but I can assure you that I am. 9 times out of 10, a "Speed blitz" doesn't work.

that a really faulty argument since if you can move faster than the telepathic person can think they can't use thier powers since they aren't faster than the speedster to begin with it still takes time for the telepath to think

[Kamiccolo9]

Honestly thanks to the recent feats guys like whis,beerus,champa,fem whis, golden freeza and the blueper saiyans in the skyfather level territory but still need some good ole hax to compete with guys like Odin and such hopefully in super there gonna be some good hax

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

Dragonball's power set also includes high enough ki often canceling other special abilities though, like Chaotzu's telekinesis having no effect against Nappa, or Vegetto keeping his consciousness and power as a candy.

I'm sorry, but...compared to the guys we're discussing, the "special abilities" in Dragon Ball are pathetic. You can't remotely compare Chiaotzu's psychic powers to Professor X, Phoenix, Luke, or the Martian Manhunter. Buu's transmutation skills are a joke compared to Dr. Strange, Doom, Zatanna, or insert-cosmic-entity-here.

And a reality warper could just turn Ki into lead and drop Goku like a brick. Half of these guys can just bring themselves back to life at will anyway.

You're applying a no limits fallacy to the limited protection to esoteric powers that Ki offers. The difference with the other franchises is that they have demonstrated their abilities reliably and consistently over decades. And it's not like it happens often in DB anyway. Nappa did it once, Vegetto did it once, probably due to the incompatibility of the magic used to create him with Buu, which is indicated by the effect Buu's body has on Vegetto, and Vegeta managed to shake off Babidi's control. However, as I've said, the abilities used by Chiaotzu, Babidi, and Buu that we are discussing just aren't all that impressive compared to what the guys in Marvel and DC do. Even Janemba's much-touted "Reality Warping" is frankly subpar when compared to even the low-tier reality warpers in these franchises.

To be honest, Odin isn't really galaxy level. That is a very common and unfortunate misinterpretation of a scene from the comics, where people assume a group of worlds being covered in darkness relates to them being destroyed. The author of that scene in question and the one that was writing Odin at the time said that he never wrote Odin to be capable of destroying a galaxy and that, while powerful, he was a "God" with clearly defined limits on what he could do.

So...yeah.

Odin has destroyed and recreated galaxies in his fights with both Seth and Infinity. I have the issues in question, and it is by no means unclear. It's hardly a one-time occurrence. The fight with Infinity actually had similar effects as Goku and Beerus had in the last episode of Super.

But again, you're trying to reduce this to physical strength and energy output, which is irrelevant at this stage. The Odinforce is basically plotspeak for Odin being able to do whatever Odin wants. Goku punching a galaxy to pieces doesn't really matter when Odin can rip out his soul and put it inside a woodpecker.

"Think>Instadeath" is still faster than "Think>Electrical impulses travel to muscles and muscles contract and person moves>Death."

Plenty of people throw around the term "speedblitz," but, regardless of how fast the actual attack itself is, the entire process is slower than merely thinking. And that's all that most of the reality warpers and telepaths we're talking about need.

Not to mention, I don't know if you are an avid comic reader, but I can assure you that I am. 9 times out of 10, a "Speed blitz" doesn't work.

that a really faulty argument since if you can move faster than the telepathic person can think they can't use thier powers since they aren't faster than the speedster to begin with it still takes time for the telepath to think

The person "speedblitzing" has to think, too. You're ignoring this. You don't just rush someone without your brain having to make your body do it. That's really all there is to it. The "speedblitzer" doesn't have a chance because they have to go through two steps to kill the telepath, while the telepath only has to go through one.

[Saiyan007]

The person "speedblitzing" has to think, too. You're ignoring this. You don't just rush someone without your brain having to make your body do it. That's really all there is to it. The "speedblitzer" doesn't have a chance because they have to go through two steps to kill the telepath, while the telepath only has to go through one.

I'm not ignoring anything that's like saying or Professor X can blow up the Flash's brain becuase he's a telepath but ignoring that Flash has femtosecond reaction times(probably higher)

X doesn't have femtosecond reaction time so as soon as the fight starts Flash speedblitz him before he can react.He still needs to think before he goes in someones mind unless you're implying X can think faster than the flash

[Kamiccolo9]

The person "speedblitzing" has to think, too. You're ignoring this. You don't just rush someone without your brain having to make your body do it. That's really all there is to it. The "speedblitzer" doesn't have a chance because they have to go through two steps to kill the telepath, while the telepath only has to go through one.

I'm not ignoring anything that's like saying or Professor X can blow up the Flash's brain becuase he's a telepath but ignoring that Flash has femtosecond reaction times(probably higher)

X doesn't have femtosecond reaction time so as soon as the fight starts Flash speedblitz him before he can react.He still needs to think before he goes in someones mind unless you're implying X can think faster than the flash

The Flash is resistant to telepathy because the Speed Force does that because Speed Force. Speed-forceless speedsters always lose against telepaths. Hell, half the time, telepaths still take out the Flash, even with the Speed Force being the Speed Force. Why do you think Gorilla Grodd is a threat to the guy? It's not because he's a giant monkey.

Reaction time is irrelevant. I'm talking about the delay between deciding to do something, and your body actually starting to doing it. How long it takes to process information doesn't even come into play here.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, since no Dragon Ball character is remotely as fast as the Flash. If you were to put Professor X and Goku 3 meters away from each other, and yell "fight," Xavier would know what Goku would do before he did it, and he'd have Goku thinking he was in a land of infinite food before Goku could move. "Speedblitzing" wouldn't even enter the picture.