Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[ABED]

But then again.. what is the use of Goku anyway? his character arc was complete in like Freeza Saga

Maybe you nor i can see areas of growth for the character, but that doesn't mean there aren't places to go with him.

Neither Gohan, nor Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Uub or anyone can fill those spots as their reasons for fighting are much different than the two.

I think Piccolo could've filled that position. He had a rivalry with Goku for years, and Goku let him live because he wanted someone to push him. And while Tenshinhan was only a rival for a short time, Tenshinhan is constantly using Goku as his inspiration to get better. He's just healthier about it than Vegeta.

[Draconic]

Rigth now it doesn't make much sense since there are no characters that fill their characteristics from a storytelling point of view.

But then again.. what is the use of Goku anyway? his character arc was complete in like Freeza Saga.. the only reason he's still kind of relevant is because of his rivalry with Vegeta.

Goten,Trunks&Gohan can become a new lead.. there's no point in dragging Goku's character anymore.

Well, Dragon Ball had almost always been about training and getting better and, as the Whis training in RoF there is still room to do that with Goku. Soon, depending what the Universe 6 arc of Super does, it might be time to retire him to a more background role, since he already reached universe destroying level. Of course there are interesting things that could be done with such a character regarding his relationship with the envoirement and other people, but it doesn't sound too Dragon Ball. My point is that he shouldn't have been retired untill now and he shouldn't in the near future either.

However, at one point or another in the future they will have to do that to the sake of this whole franchise since a character can only get to be the main driving point of a story for so much before that story becomes stale. I don't think it is the moment to do that, though, and that there was no such point in the past either. It might be the case further down the line and, like I said, if I were to chose a replacement it would be Pan. That is a character with huge potential that I bet would be embraced by the fanbase as a new lead if done right.

EDIT: @ABED Piccolo is a character that works like Vegeta, better if he has someone to play off of. And his character is Gohan, since after he was a villain, most of his interactions are with him. But he also works as the wise type he has been portrayed as since fusing with Kami. He is a perfect example of a side character who still got depth. That is unlike Tien, who I feel, even though he is there almost since the beginning, feels a little under-developed. Or to put it other way, underwhelming.

[Rockman X]

Well, Dragon Ball had almost always been about training and getting better

Well if that's how describe Dragon ball as a whole then any DBZ character can take that part not just Goku.. Gohan,Trunks,Goten ANYONE can do that.

My point is that he shouldn't have been retired untill now and he shouldn't in the near future either.

Because you say so? because you want to see Goku goof around,eat food fight his enemies go train for the 10,000th time and repeat the cycle over and over again.. i'm sorry but not everyone in DB fanbase has such shallow level of expectations we want to see character struggles&motivations that resonate with us if Goku can't provide us with that he needs to be axed off plains&simple.

[Draconic]

Well, Dragon Ball had almost always been about training and getting better

Well if that's how describe Dragon ball as a whole then any DBZ character can take that part not just Goku.. Gohan,Trunks,Goten ANYONE can do that.

My point is that he shouldn't have been retired untill now and he shouldn't in the near future either.

Because you say so? because you want to see Goku goof around,eat food fight his enemies go train for the 10,000th time and repeat the cycle over and over again.. i'm sorry but not everyone in DB fanbase has such shallow level of expectations we want to see character struggles&motivations that resonate with us if Goku can't provide us with that he needs to be axed off plains&simple.

Goku is the only character whose entire motivation is to get stronger. The other fighters have other desires too, seeing that a lot of them abandoned training or retired from fighting altogheter. Toryiama himselfs describes Goku as pure of heart only because he has a pure desire to fight stronger opponents. He embodies the phrase "training and getting better", to him it is not a side activity.

1. If you read my post you would see that is not what I said at all.
2. I never said I speak for the whole fanbase and expressed by opinions. Also, I don't see how my expectations for a comedy-action show are shallow. Goku can grow as a character while still being the lovable goofball that he is, anyway. He did so since Dragon Ball.
3. I don't get why a character has to be the lead to resonate with him. I resonated a lot with Gohan when I was young. Not to mention a lot of people DO resonate with Goku, since he is the most popular character and all.
4. If you reply in the tone you did here I will not continue this conversation.

[ABED]

we want to see character struggles&motivations that resonate with us

We see Goku's struggles and motivations and they do resonate. Look at the battle against Beerus. It bothers Goku that he couldn't get to the level of Super Saiyan God except by relying on others, but he won't let that prevent him from using that power to protect his world. That's a great insight into who Goku is.

Gohan is more the reluctant hero, and that doesn't feel like DB.

because you want to see Goku goof around,eat food fight his enemies go train for the 10,000th time and repeat the cycle over and over again..

That's better than Gohan getting yet another power up because he's finally tapping his full potential.

[Ree]

i dont think they should be retired but they need to be given the shaft in favor of the lesser used charcters.

[ABED]

i dont think they should be retired but they need to be given the shaft in favor of the lesser used charcters.

Or you can just make better use of the supporting cast.

[Ree]

yeah but since they cant do so I suggested shafting.

[ABED]

yeah but since they cant do so I suggested shafting.

Which they also can't do because it's a ridiculous idea. Goku is the icon and is the heart of the show. Give him the shaft, it's no longer DB.

I don't see how giving him the shaft is somehow easier than giving the supporting characters more to do, or that the show would somehow benefit either creatively or popularity wise by pushing out its most popular character.

[Ree]

It worked out just fine when they did it from time to time and could work in Super

[ABED]

When was Goku given the shaft?

[EXBadguy]

Ah, welcome to the interwebz, where we hate the stuff people love and love the stuff people hate! Many people outside this community wanted Gohan or the next gen to take over while folks here want Goku to stay.

Honestly, though, I don't think the first three sagas of DBZ focused on Goku's habits as much as the Buu saga and most of Toei's movies.

3. I don't get why a character has to be the lead to resonate with the audience.

Standards, my friend. Standards. The days of "I Love Lucy" and Saturday cartoons are over. This ain't Nickelodeon, but even a few shows on that channel had characters that people can resonate and aren't one sided(i.e. Avatar and Legend of Korra)

because you want to see Goku goof around,eat food fight his enemies go train for the 10,000th time and repeat the cycle over and over again..

That's better than Gohan getting yet another power up because he's finally tapping his full potential.

What're you talking about? Goku does the same thing, but instead, he even gets more powers outta nowhere, while for Gohan, there was a bit of buildup.

[Chuquita]

I don't like reluctant heroes. It's like, if they don't want to be here and they're the one on the adventure why would I want to be there watching or reading about them complaining, whining, or angsting? It's a huge turn off that's kept me away from franchises that employ it.

It's fine for a character to have something cause them to question things, but when the bulk of their character is "I don't want to do this/be here", and they're the main character we're following and not a side character, it's too much.

[fadeddreams5]

When was Goku given the shaft?

Every single saga of DBZ.

By "getting the shaft," nobody means getting rid of him altogether. They mean sit him on the bench while other characters actually do something significant and get the spotlight.

And no, I don't mean having a party, fighting a legion of mooks, or acting as maids for the big baddie until Goku shows up.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I disagree with the OP, Goku and Vegeta being leads hasn't stop other growth of characters at all. We got a glimpse of this in Resurrection "F", with Krillin being a cop and Gohan and Videl being a family (probably get insight on the others in Super) not only that sticking but with Resurrection "F" Goku and Vegeta didn't exactly hog the screen time for that much anyway, it was only really the third act that they started to hog the film but that was alright the others got their fair do.

Also, having finally seen Resurrection "F" both work very well as co-leads for DB I couldn't see anyone else fulfilling the role and the way they play of each other and their interactions I just can't see anyone else being as great. No matter who would have replaced Goku and Vegeta would they just wouldn't have been the same, it is like Robin we have loads and loads of them but no-one has come close to Dick Grayson though Damian has come closet but it's taken them like 10 different Robins to get to that stage, I feel like something similar would happen to DB if they did away with Goku and Vegeta, (they probably wouldn't have that many opportunities though probably just the one).

[ABED]

By "getting the shaft," nobody means getting rid of him altogether. They mean sit him on the bench while other characters actually do something significant and get the spotlight.

Then that's not getting the shaft, and them "getting something significant" often just meant treading water. If the lead character constantly needs to be removed from the story for your other characters to get focus, you're doing it wrong. In the Saiyan arc, Goku wasn't taken out of the story, he was dead, but still very much in focus along with other characters. Then in the Freeza arc, after taking a beating from Vegeta, he's traveling to Namek most of the early arc. That was organic, and the other characters made meaningful contributions to the story. However, taking Goku out of the fight became way too formulaic. It is in literally EVERY arc in DBZ. Sometimes it's organic, much of the time it's not and just is meant to keep the story going instead of pushing it forward. The rest of the time, very little comes of him being absent from the story. The formula is used TWICE in the Freeza arc. The first time when Goku's traveling to Namek and the second while he's healing from his fight against Ginyu. Both times it's used to create more drama, much like Justice League stories sometimes take out Superman in order to create drama given he's the most powerful member of the team. However, if you use it too many times, it grows tiresome as it did in the Freeza fight. When Goku is absent, the other fighters do no lasting damage or much of anything meaningful beyond get Freeza to reach his final form.

I don't like reluctant heroes. It's like, if they don't want to be here and they're the one on the adventure why would I want to be there watching or reading about them complaining, whining, or angsting? It's a huge turn off that's kept me away from franchises that employ it.

The trope works in certain places like Han Solo, but he has an arc. It gets tiresome in the Mad Max series because every single damn time he's reluctant to help and then ends up helping. That's not growth. I'd much rather watch either someone have an arc like Han, or want to help out.

It's fine for a character to have something cause them to question things

I'm the same. Every once and a while, it's fine to have a character question why they are doing things because perhaps their mission has taken a toll, but i think they should ultimately come around and reafirm why they do what they do.

What're you talking about? Goku does the same thing, but instead, he even gets more powers outta nowhere, while for Gohan, there was a bit of buildup.

Goku's potential only comes out once if you don't count Super Saiyan. His potential is fully tapped when he drinks the Karin's super spirit water in order to fight Piccolo, but at least there he goes through hell in order to get that power released. Same with Super Saiyan and the power he gained from healing after the Ginyu battle. Gohan is often not built up beyond "you have untapped potential." Piccolo helps Gohan reach his potential, then The Grand Elder magically brings up Gohan's full potential, then Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 because he somehow has more untapped potential, and then the Elder Kaioshin brings out Gohan's potential and past that with his magic spell. Goku typically works for his or goes through hell to get it.

I don't think the first three sagas of DBZ focused on Goku's habits as much as the Buu saga and most of Toei's movies

You don't think the Saiyan arc focused a lot on Goku?

[Draconic]

3. I don't get why a character has to be the lead to resonate with the audience.

Standards, my friend. Standards. The days of "I Love Lucy" and Saturday cartoons are over. This ain't Nickelodeon, but even a few shows on that channel had characters that people can resonate and aren't one sided(i.e. Avatar and Legend of Korra)

I don't quite think you understood me. I meant that you can resonate with other characters too, even if they are not the lead, not that the lead should be unrelateable or something. And Goku is not an unrelatable character anyway, especially for kids, who are the show's target audience. And I could argue that he is also, if not relateable, at least desireable for adults. Because I am sure we can agree that when real life hits you, seeing someone not lose his childish behaviour and dreams even during some of the darker events in his life it sets an example for you. And judging by all the posts of casual fans on sites like 9gag, this is exactly what Goku represents to them.

Also, you are right, the movies did base themselves a lot around Goku, when lots of villains could have proven better foils for the supporting guys, with the proper storytelling. So I can understand why people might get tired of the guy, but that doesn't mean the character has to pay for the writer's poor storytelling and the studio's lack of balls.

And yes, I know a lot of people wanted Gohan to become the lead and I can't argue with those believing so, but he hadn't and it did make sense character wise.

[Kuririn Fan]

It's not Dragon Ball without Goku and Vegeta as leaders. I don't give a fuck about "new generation", they all suck and are not likeable like these two...

[fadeddreams5]

Then that's not getting the shaft, and them "getting something significant" often just meant treading water. If the lead character constantly needs to be removed from the story for your other characters to get focus, you're doing it wrong. In the Saiyan arc, Goku wasn't taken out of the story, he was dead, but still very much in focus along with other characters. Then in the Freeza arc, after taking a beating from Vegeta, he's traveling to Namek most of the early arc. That was organic, and the other characters made meaningful contributions to the story. However, taking Goku out of the fight became way too formulaic. It is in literally EVERY arc in DBZ. Sometimes it's organic, much of the time it's not and just is meant to keep the story going instead of pushing it forward. The rest of the time, very little comes of him being absent from the story. The formula is used TWICE in the Freeza arc. The first time when Goku's traveling to Namek and the second while he's healing from his fight against Ginyu. Both times it's used to create more drama, much like Justice League stories sometimes take out Superman in order to create drama given he's the most powerful member of the team. However, if you use it too many times, it grows tiresome as it did in the Freeza fight. When Goku is absent, the other fighters do no lasting damage or much of anything meaningful beyond get Freeza to reach his final form.

I thought the saiyan saga was very well balanced. Goku didn't get the shaft and was on his own adventure, Gohan and Piccolo developed as characters, and the others did their own special training. This is also during an era where every character could hold their own (right after DB), so it was pretty surprising seeing them get beaten so easily. From the beginning, though, it's pretty obvious Goku will be the only one capable of beating these guys, but even after he arrives, it takes teamwork to take down Vegeta.

The Namek saga, however, had very little Goku. This was entirely Gohan and Krillin's adventure, as well as Vegeta's. It worked perfectly because Gohan and Krillin were completely powerless against Frieza, his men, and Vegeta. It was basically a stealth, suicide mission. It's impossible to ever capture anything like this or early DB because all the characters are far too strong now.

The Cell saga had even less of Goku, even if the enemies only existed because of him. And the Buu saga was built up to be the storyline where Goku steps out and lets the newer generation beat the enemy.

But then you have GT and movies, where Goku is everywhere and everyone's roles are reduced to only cannon fodder.

[ABED]

The Namek saga, however, had very little Goku. This was entirely Gohan and Krillin's adventure, as well as Vegeta's. It worked perfectly because Gohan and Krillin were completely powerless against Freeza, his men, and Vegeta. It was basically a stealth, suicide mission. It's impossible to ever capture anything like this or early DB because all the characters are far too strong now.

It worked here because the story made use of the characters strengths. Vegeta didn't just go head strong into a fight against an opponent he couldn't win and Kuririn and Gohan's story was finding the DBs as well as helping Dende. It worked because the weaker characters were used in organic, surprising, and helpful ways instead of just "he helped fight the bad guy" or "he bought time". I don't think the Cell saga or the Buu saga were better off for keeping Goku benched. Gohan wasn't that interesting as a lead, and Gotenks undercut the drama. I'm fine with levity, but too much and there are no stakes. That's a big problem I'm having with several Marvel movies (e.g. Iron Man 3).

But then you have GT and movies, where Goku is everywhere and everyone's roles are reduced to only cannon fodder.

I get your point, and that's why I think having the other characters fight some of the Evil Dragons would've been an excellent idea.