Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[rereboy]

You can't though, since that was explained in the episode. Goku was nullifying Beerus' attacks and that effect decreased the further the shockwaves went, hence why there was such low damage close to the point of origin, and high damage far away.

Yes, I can since the explanation makes little sense. If Goku was nullifying his attacks, then what was nullified would actually be nullified, and what would hit Earth and then escape from it would just be the small amount of power that wasn't nullified. That's what makes sense. As it stands, Goku somehow doesn't nullify the attacks at all, it just, magically, makes them harmless/numb for a while until they "snap" out of it into their usual power which is an action that doesn't make sense at all for Goku to make compared to just nullifying it/stopping it, except when we consider that it's more impressive for the viewer if he does that instead of nullifying it, just like it was more impressive for Superman to lift infinite weigh than doing something else... Yet, the argument is that one of these feats doesn't count, but the other does.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Let's just say that none of these feats make any sense, on either side. Then we can call it a day.

[voltlunok]

Let's just say that none of these feats make any sense, on either side. Then we can call it a day.

I concur, it may be for the best cause both sides will try desperately to disarm both fighters of their higher tier strength feats...

[rereboy]

Let's just say that none of these feats make any sense, on either side. Then we can call it a day.

That's basically what I'm saying. But I'm not saying one of them "counts" while the other doesn't.

[Saiyan007]

Well Goku did match in power Beerus punch that would have destroyed the universe(the 3rd punch)

So yeah N52,Post Crisis,All Star,Injustice Supes can't trade blows with Goku who i might add was still not at max power becuase if they do it would just be a sea of red mist

[The Monkey King]

Let's just say that none of these feats make any sense, on either side. Then we can call it a day.

That's basically what I'm saying. But I'm not saying one of them "counts" while the other doesn't.

Superman's lifting a book of 'infinite pages' feat is a simple hyperbole.

The concept of one needing help to lift 'infinite weight' clearly shows that the writers didn't think it had infinite weight just that it was really heavy

Not to mention the book contained all books within DC's 52 multiverses, meaning it has a finite number of pages.

Also Ultraman read the final chapter of the book once again proving it has finite pages

Superman's Infinite mass punch demonstrates the peak of his strength and power:

Spoiler:

The resulting attack was planet level and knocked him out

Doesn't look like 'infinite strength' to me.

Such an attack wouldn't even tickle Goku. Goku punches Supes and eviscerates him.

[Saiyan007]

The fact that he lifts "infinity" should tell you it's a hyperbole then Ultraman lifts it by himself is he infinitely stronger than Superman now

Not too mention if someone could lift "infinity" they wouldn't get hurt by anything .......ever

[Tectorman]

I could just as well argue that Goku's feat "was horribly taken out of context" and "makes no sense" since it can apparently destroy planets far away but it can't harm average humans in close proximity to the battle. There's no more clear sign of partially in this subject than trying to ignore or invalidate feats of just one character.

You can't though, since that was explained in the episode. Goku was nullifying Beerus' attacks and that effect decreased the further the shockwaves went, hence why there was such low damage close to the point of origin, and high damage far away.

Thank you! That helps this make sense.

I've been wondering about what those two were doing since I read the description. At first I thought they were somehow doing the inverse of the Inverse-Square Law, creating a shockwave that gets stronger the further it goes (hey, if Superman can hear in a vacuum at billions of times the speed of sound, why can't two gods violate Inverse-Square?)

Now, though, I can see it working another way. Beerus's fist hits Goku's and creates a shockwave propgating throughout the universe. Goku's technique is some kind of dampening field spreading out at the same rate and then nullifying the shockwave. His earlier attempts were unsuccessful because he didn't cast it far enough. His third attempt worked because he sent it out all the way. I don't know, but this somehow seems more palatable than some kind of weird inverse-inverse-square. I wish I'd thought of it.

I do hope this technique, however it actually works, gets a better explanation at some point.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I could just as well argue that Goku's feat "was horribly taken out of context" and "makes no sense" since it can apparently destroy planets far away but it can't harm average humans in close proximity to the battle. There's no more clear sign of partially in this subject than trying to ignore or invalidate feats of just one character.

You can't though, since that was explained in the episode. Goku was nullifying Beerus' attacks and that effect decreased the further the shockwaves went, hence why there was such low damage close to the point of origin, and high damage far away.

Thank you! That helps this make sense.

I've been wondering about what those two were doing since I read the description. At first I thought they were somehow doing the inverse of the Inverse-Square Law, creating a shockwave that gets stronger the further it goes (hey, if Superman can hear in a vacuum at billions of times the speed of sound, why can't two gods violate Inverse-Square?)

Now, though, I can see it working another way. Beerus's fist hits Goku's and creates a shockwave propgating throughout the universe. Goku's technique is some kind of dampening field spreading out at the same rate and then nullifying the shockwave. His earlier attempts were unsuccessful because he didn't cast it far enough. His third attempt worked because he sent it out all the way. I don't know, but this somehow seems more palatable than some kind of weird inverse-inverse-square. I wish I'd thought of it.

I do hope this technique, however it actually works, gets a better explanation at some point.

That idea doesn't really make sense, since Goku failed to counter the attack the first two times, and failed to counter it during the beam struggle, but still the damage was only significant farther away. It seems like some kind of strange inherent property of whatever they were doing.

[rereboy]

Superman's lifting a book of 'infinite pages' feat is a simple hyperbole.

The concept of one needing help to lift 'infinite weight' clearly shows that the writers didn't think it had infinite weight just that it was really heavy

Not to mention the book contained all books within DC's 52 multiverses, meaning it has a finite number of pages.

Also Ultraman read the final chapter of the book once again proving it has finite pages

Superman stated that it contained every book possible, not every book in existence. There's a difference. The book contains not every book that was written but every book that can possibly be written (http://www.comicvine.com/book-of-librar ... 055-55902/). Also, existing a page next to the back cover or in the front cover of the book doesn't mean that it hasn't have infinite pages in the middle... That logic only works for actual real books that obey the physical laws we are used too.

It was a meta-physical object with that characteristic, not a big rock, so it was clearly intentional and meant to be that way. This is a feat that transcends the normal physical limits that can be grasped by human comprehension, meaning that what Superman is achieving is something that transcends the whole notion of physical weight, actually going beyond it, which is a frequent staple of DC where a lot of metaphysical stuff happens with god-like beings treating these physical limits and concepts like they are irrelevant. That's the whole point of actually being able to lift infinite weight. You are just trying to rationalize it according to human comprehension of physical limits by making it into something that it wasn't because you don't think it makes much sense while forgetting that the point is exactly to go beyond what can be perceived as the concept of actual weight, and while also ignoring that feats like Goku "numbing" Beerus shockwaves for a while also don't really make sense.

Superman's Infinite mass punch demonstrates the peak of his strength and power:

Spoiler:

The resulting attack was planet level and knocked him out

Doesn't look like 'infinite strength' to me.

Such an attack wouldn't even tickle Goku. Goku punches Supes and eviscerates him.

There's also comics of Superman not managing to be fast enough to catch a missile, and others where he traverses galaxies in minutes. That's called inconsistency due to different writers, time periods and retcons. That's why there's a ton of versions and interpretations of Superman and why I stated that it's paramount to recognize this and either compare a very specific Superman to Goku or just take Superman as a whole, which includes his more ridiculous feats.

The fact that he lifts "infinity" should tell you it's a hyperbole then Ultraman lifts it by himself is he infinitely stronger than Superman now

Not too mention if someone could lift "infinity" they wouldn't get hurt by anything .......ever

No, it just means that Superman's strength at that moment went beyond even the notion and concept of physical weight. DC deals a lot with the meta-physical, with power beyond what can be grasped by human comprehension of physical limits, with god-like beings treating those limits like they are irrelevant. This is clearly intentional and meant to be regarded seriously. You ignore this and say that it's not true, that it's mere hyperbole, because it doesn't make much sense to you and your notion of physical limits, when its whole point is to go and show something beyond that.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Honestly if you want to go with the hyperbole thing you could just say that Elder Kaioshin was full of shit since all we saw destroyed was one planet and some asteroids, so that's all it can do. You can make any impressive thing seem unimpressive if you try hard enough.

[Khin]

I agree with some people here,the Goku vs. Superman debate is totally pointless,either the creator of Superman and Goku can make them so overpowered if they wanted to.Even i can make a character than can disintegrate both Superman and Goku at the same time by simply looking at them.Yeah its fun to discuss things like this but many people just take these things so seriously.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I agree with some people here,the Goku vs. Superman debate is totally pointless,either the creator of Superman and Goku can make them so overpowered if they wanted to.Even i can make a character than can disintigrate both Superman and Goku at the same time by simply looking at them.Yeah its fun to discuss things like this but many people just take these things so seriously.

Exactly.

[Tectorman]

That idea doesn't really make sense, since Goku failed to counter the attack the first two times, and failed to counter it during the beam struggle, but still the damage was only significant farther away. It seems like some kind of strange inherent property of whatever they were doing.

I'll try to explain it in Star Trek terms (and if that doesn't work, then I apologize, but this is seriously the best way I can think of to illustrate this).

The Enterprise can travel at full impulse, which is a quarter of the speed of light. If she needed to come to a full stop in any amount of time more convenient than a day (i.e., within thirty seconds or so), then the difficulty of overcoming the inertia of that deceleration would rip the ship's structure to pieces. The Enterprise therefore has a system in place to prevent that from happening. This is the SIF (Structural Integrity Field) that works by applying a force field to all the non-living parts of the ship, forcibly keeping her in one piece. (The IDF (Inertial Dampening Field) is what keeps the crew from becoming bloody smears on the bulkheads.)

So let's suppose the Enterprise is traveling at full impulse and needs to stop quickly. Her SIF isn't functioning at full capacity. So here's what happens: the impulse engines apply a deceleration force to the entire ship. The effect is caused by the impulse engines but is applied to the entire vessel as a single unit.

Since the SIF isn't working right, the parts of the ship not protected take structural damage while the parts of the ship near the working SIF generators remain intact. And let's say that one of the parts of the ship that still has a functioning SIF are the impulse engines, which means that the impulse engines take no structural damage while parts of the ship further away take damage.

Fortunately, the damage control teams work quickly and repair the SIF to the point where the entire ship can be protected. So towards the end of the Enterprise's deceleration, the entire vessel is protected.

So how does that explain Beerus and Goku? In this example, Beerus is the impulse engines, the universe is the Enterprise, Beerus's shockwaves are the structural damage from the deceleration, and Goku is the SIF. His first two attempts are the equivalent of the malfunctioning SIF, and his third attempt was the restored SIF.

Beerus takes the action that creates the shockwaves at his location but their effects permeate the entire universe almost instantaneously. What might be happening at his specific location (such as Goku dampening his shockwaves) has no bearing on what happens to the shockwaves throughout the rest of the universe. Goku's dampening technique, on the other hand, is tied to his location and extends out only so far (at least until he figures this technique out). At which point, he's able to forcibly hold the entire universe together while fighting Beerus.

If it turns out that this or something like it is the explanation, that is.

[rereboy]

I'll try to explain it in Star Trek terms (and if that doesn't work, then I apologize, but this is seriously the best way I can think of to illustrate this).

The Enterprise can travel at full impulse, which is a quarter of the speed of light. If she needed to come to a full stop in any amount of time more convenient than a day (i.e., within thirty seconds or so), then the difficulty of overcoming the inertia of that deceleration would rip the ship's structure to pieces. The Enterprise therefore has a system in place to prevent that from happening. This is the SIF (Structural Integrity Field) that works by applying a force field to all the non-living parts of the ship, forcibly keeping her in one piece. (The IDF (Inertial Dampening Field) is what keeps the crew from becoming bloody smears on the bulkheads.)

So let's suppose the Enterprise is traveling at full impulse and needs to stop quickly. Her SIF isn't functioning at full capacity. So here's what happens: the impulse engines apply a deceleration force to the entire ship. The effect is caused by the impulse engines but is applied to the entire vessel as a single unit.

Since the SIF isn't working right, the parts of the ship not protected take structural damage while the parts of the ship near the working SIF generators remain intact. And let's say that one of the parts of the ship that still has a functioning SIF are the impulse engines, which means that the impulse engines take no structural damage while parts of the ship further away take damage.

Fortunately, the damage control teams work quickly and repair the SIF to the point where the entire ship can be protected. So towards the end of the Enterprise's deceleration, the entire vessel is protected.

So how does that explain Beerus and Goku? In this example, Beerus is the impulse engines, the universe is the Enterprise, Beerus's shockwaves are the structural damage from the deceleration, and Goku is the SIF. His first two attempts are the equivalent of the malfunctioning SIF, and his third attempt was the restored SIF.

Beerus takes the action that creates the shockwaves at his location but their effects permeate the entire universe almost instantaneously. What might be happening at his specific location (such as Goku dampening his shockwaves) has no bearing on what happens to the shockwaves throughout the rest of the universe. Goku's dampening technique, on the other hand, is tied to his location and extends out only so far (at least until he figures this technique out). At which point, he's able to forcibly hold the entire universe together while fighting Beerus.

If it turns out that this or something like it is the explanation, that is.

What you said about Star Trek has a point to it and has been consistently that way from the start, making that fact an intrinsic part of what the viewer accepts as true within that world, just like it accepts that there are aliens in Star Trek, or that there is Ki in Dragon Ball.

There's no point in Goku doing that instead of actually nullifying the effects of the attacks (besides making ti impressive to the audience without anyone on Earth being affected), nor does that have any basis on how anything worked in Dragon Ball, nor does it actually make sense.

[singsing]

I'll try to explain it in Star Trek terms (and if that doesn't work, then I apologize, but this is seriously the best way I can think of to illustrate this).

The Enterprise can travel at full impulse, which is a quarter of the speed of light. If she needed to come to a full stop in any amount of time more convenient than a day (i.e., within thirty seconds or so), then the difficulty of overcoming the inertia of that deceleration would rip the ship's structure to pieces. The Enterprise therefore has a system in place to prevent that from happening. This is the SIF (Structural Integrity Field) that works by applying a force field to all the non-living parts of the ship, forcibly keeping her in one piece. (The IDF (Inertial Dampening Field) is what keeps the crew from becoming bloody smears on the bulkheads.)

So let's suppose the Enterprise is traveling at full impulse and needs to stop quickly. Her SIF isn't functioning at full capacity. So here's what happens: the impulse engines apply a deceleration force to the entire ship. The effect is caused by the impulse engines but is applied to the entire vessel as a single unit.

Since the SIF isn't working right, the parts of the ship not protected take structural damage while the parts of the ship near the working SIF generators remain intact. And let's say that one of the parts of the ship that still has a functioning SIF are the impulse engines, which means that the impulse engines take no structural damage while parts of the ship further away take damage.

Fortunately, the damage control teams work quickly and repair the SIF to the point where the entire ship can be protected. So towards the end of the Enterprise's deceleration, the entire vessel is protected.

So how does that explain Beerus and Goku? In this example, Beerus is the impulse engines, the universe is the Enterprise, Beerus's shockwaves are the structural damage from the deceleration, and Goku is the SIF. His first two attempts are the equivalent of the malfunctioning SIF, and his third attempt was the restored SIF.

Beerus takes the action that creates the shockwaves at his location but their effects permeate the entire universe almost instantaneously. What might be happening at his specific location (such as Goku dampening his shockwaves) has no bearing on what happens to the shockwaves throughout the rest of the universe. Goku's dampening technique, on the other hand, is tied to his location and extends out only so far (at least until he figures this technique out). At which point, he's able to forcibly hold the entire universe together while fighting Beerus.

If it turns out that this or something like it is the explanation, that is.

What you said about Star Trek has a point to it and has been consistently that way from the start, making that fact an intrinsic part of what the viewer accepts as true within that world, just like it accepts that there are aliens in Star Trek, or that there is Ki in Dragon Ball.

There's no point in Goku doing that instead of actually nullifying the effects of the attacks (besides making ti impressive to the audience without anyone on Earth being affected), nor does that have any basis on how anything worked in Dragon Ball, nor does it actually make sense.

Are we still talking about how things don't make sense in a fictional universe?

[Mewzard]

Are we still talking about how things don't make sense in a fictional universe?

I think the point he's trying to make is that even fictional universes need some sort of consistent rules and not change on the fly.

[Tectorman]

What you said about Star Trek has a point to it and has been consistently that way from the start, making that fact an intrinsic part of what the viewer accepts as true within that world, just like it accepts that there are aliens in Star Trek, or that there is Ki in Dragon Ball.

There's no point in Goku doing that instead of actually nullifying the effects of the attacks (besides making ti impressive to the audience without anyone on Earth being affected), nor does that have any basis on how anything worked in Dragon Ball, nor does it actually make sense.

1) When I say "dampening", I mean "nullifying". Or rather, I think Goku was trying to nullify the shockwaves and the fact that the denizens of Earth still feel something going on is because he either wasn't executing this technique correctly, or he was and there's just a limit to how much you can nullify the shockwaves of the God of Destruction.

2) Is your question "What already existing in the series is this hypothetical SIF-like technique based on, such that it isn't just some new thing completely out of the blue?" Because I can answer that.

3) I can share and expand on my pet theory. It's one of the things I enjoy about participating on this forum. I'd love to do so. But the last time I tried to explain one of my interpretations, I got burned for it. Is it going to be a waste of my time to do so now? Should I even bother?

[Sora Saiyan]

Are we still talking about how things don't make sense in a fictional universe?

I think the point he's trying to make is that even fictional universes need some sort of consistent rules and not change on the fly.

They don't 'need' consistent rules. Fiction can do whatever it wants as this episode has shown. This feat was convenient this way as the writers could claim that it destroyed a lot of planets the further out it got but didn't destroy the earth because it was the starting point.

I guess Super can show us this bow to show us Goku can learn to nullify stuff the way he has done now, and later he won't destroy the universe when he's having tough fights with Freeza and the like.

[neogaiden]

Why not think of it like a ripple building up into a tsunami before finally petering out again. The harder they clash, the farther and more destructive each subsequent ripple becomes. In my opinion I think this idea was what they were going for when the came up with the sequence. A ripple starts of small but can build into something far greater the further out it goes.