Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[ABED]

He said he was sacrificing himself for the Earth (not "for you guys"...)

But it's not in the abstract. The reason the Earth means so much to him is because it's HIS home and HIS friends and family are there. I don't know how dying for strangers is somehow more noble. I also wouldn't consider him dying in this instance a sacrifice.

[Doctor.]

He said he was sacrificing himself for the Earth (not "for you guys"...)

But it's not in the abstract. The reason the Earth means so much to him is because it's HIS home and HIS friends and family are there. I don't know how dying for strangers is somehow more noble. I also wouldn't consider him dying in this instance a sacrifice.

And he fought for Namek even though it wasn't his home and his friends and family didn't live there.

It's obvious it's a sacrifice.

[fadeddreams5]

Kid Goku was a lot more selfless too, constantly going out of his way to directly help people he didn't even know.

Kunzait_83, I like your analysis.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of modern DBZ stuff?

[ABED]

He said he was sacrificing himself for the Earth (not "for you guys"...)

But it's not in the abstract. The reason the Earth means so much to him is because it's HIS home and HIS friends and family are there. I don't know how dying for strangers is somehow more noble. I also wouldn't consider him dying in this instance a sacrifice.

And he fought for Namek even though it wasn't his home and his friends and family didn't live there.

It's obvious it's a sacrifice.

But his friends and son were on that planet.

A sacrifice is giving up something of greater value for lesser value.

Kid Goku was a lot more selfless too, constantly going out of his way to directly help people he didn't even know.

Goku's always that person. The difference is that after he had a family, he's less inclined to go places where he'd usually encounter people. For instance, he helped Umigame get back to the ocean because he met him by chance. If something like that happened when he was an adult, i doubt he would do anything any different. I also wouldn't consider that selfless. Being nice isn't selfless in my eyes. There's a spiritual gain.

[Doctor.]

But his friends and son were on that planet.

A sacrifice is giving up something of greater value for lesser value.

Are you saying Goku would let Freeza destroy Namek if Gohan and co. weren't there? Goku doesn't actively seek to save people, but he does so when faced with the opportunity, it doesn't matter if it's to save one person or to save an entire planet.

3.
the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

[ABED]

But his friends and son were on that planet.

A sacrifice is giving up something of greater value for lesser value.

Are you saying Goku would let Freeza destroy Namek if Gohan and co. weren't there? Goku doesn't actively seek to save people, but he does so when faced with the opportunity, it doesn't matter if it's to save one person or to save an entire planet.

3.
the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

Would he have gone there had he not been going to help his friends or find the DBs? Yes, when faced with the opportunity, he'll help out, but if he didn't have a reason to go to Namek, he wouldn't have gone there to help them because he wouldn't know about them.

That is a bad definition of sacrifice. THat's a gain. The surrender of something of lesser value for something of a higher value is a gain.

[Doctor.]

Would he have gone there had he not been going to help his friends or find the DBs?

No, I didn't argue that. I even said that he doesn't seek to save people on his own.

But saying that he doesn't try to save the people on the planet he's on, and only sticks to saving his friends, is preposterous.

That is a bad definition of sacrifice. THat's a gain. The surrender of something of lesser value for something of a higher value is a gain.

Oxford's definition is the same.

An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy:

I don't want to argue semantics. I don't even know what you're trying to argue here anyway.

[ABED]

Then oxford is using a bad definition. I don't like lumping in two opposite phenomena. I'd rather we not consider blowing off studying and class to constantly get drunk the same as giving up one's life to save a son/daughter. This is an important philosophical issue to me. I'm opposed to self-sacrifice as a moral ideal.

But saying that he doesn't try to save the people on the planet he's on, and only sticks to saving his friends, is preposterous.

I didn't say that.

[Doctor.]

Then oxford is using a bad definition. I don't like lumping in two opposite phenomena. I'd rather we not consider blowing off studying and class to constantly get drunk the same as giving up one's life to save a son/daughter. This is an important philosophical issue to me. I'm opposed to self-sacrifice as a moral ideal.

Like I said, I'm not going to argue semantics, but I trust Oxford a lot more, no offense. One can consider "blowing off studying and class to constantly get drunk" a sacrifice.

I didn't say that.

You certainly implied that when you said that Goku thinks Earth is important is because it's his home and his friends live there. What I'm saying is that if, at any point in the series, Goku was teleported to a random planet that was being tormented by a being capable of destroying it at any time, he'd save it, even if his initial motivation would be to fight that guy because he seems strong. You know, like Namek.

I still don't get what you're arguing for, then.

[ABED]

Then oxford is using a bad definition. I don't like lumping in two opposite phenomena. I'd rather we not consider blowing off studying and class to constantly get drunk the same as giving up one's life to save a son/daughter. This is an important philosophical issue to me. I'm opposed to self-sacrifice as a moral ideal.

Like I said, I'm not going to argue semantics, but I trust Oxford a lot more, no offense. One can consider "blowing off studying and class to constantly get drunk" a sacrifice.

I didn't say that.

You certainly implied that when you said that Goku thinks Earth is important is because it's his home and his friends live there. What I'm saying is that if, at any point in the series, Goku was teleported to a random planet that was being tormented by a being capable of destroying it at any time, he'd save it, even if his initial motivation would be to fight that guy because he seems strong. You know, like Namek.

I still don't get what you're arguing for, then.

Yes, that would be a sacrfice, but to lump it together with the opposite situation is ridiculous and confusing.

No, you inferred that. Earth is most definitely important to Goku because of the people who are close to him. Hell, he left Yardrat after a year because he wanted to get home. And while he was fighting to help out, the biggest motivators for Goku aren't strangers, and that doesn't make him any less heroic.

[fadeddreams5]

Goku's always that person. The difference is that after he had a family, he's less inclined to go places where he'd usually encounter people. For instance, he helped Umigame get back to the ocean because he met him by chance. If something like that happened when he was an adult, i doubt he would do anything any different. I also wouldn't consider that selfless. Being nice isn't selfless in my eyes. There's a spiritual gain.

I was thinking more along the lines of his adventure with Upa. He went out of his way to find the dragon balls for him, despite the fact that this clashed with his own goal of acquiring the four star ball.

As for Turtle, helping him got in the way of his own adventure, yet he went against Bulma's (his only friend's) words in favor of a stranger.

Or the time he noticed Namu's stomach growling, and offered him food from the plate he was eating, instead of eating it all himself.

But you're right in that Goku might be selfless as an adult too. My point is that he's displayed this towards strangers in the past. If he's still the same, it sort of goes against the notion that Goku only cares/thinks about himself and his close friends/family when he fights.

[Doctor.]

No, you inferred that. Earth is most definitely important to Goku because of the people who are close to him. Hell, he left Yardrat after a year because he wanted to get home.

Yes, Earth is the most important planet to Goku. Does this mean he gives zero shits about the people that live in it? Does this mean he gives zero shits about any planet he visits that's not called Earth? No, of course not.

[ABED]

Goku's always that person. The difference is that after he had a family, he's less inclined to go places where he'd usually encounter people. For instance, he helped Umigame get back to the ocean because he met him by chance. If something like that happened when he was an adult, i doubt he would do anything any different. I also wouldn't consider that selfless. Being nice isn't selfless in my eyes. There's a spiritual gain.

I was thinking more along the lines of his adventure with Upa. He went out of his way to find the dragon balls for him, despite the fact that this clashed with his own goal of acquiring the four star ball.

As for Turtle, helping him got in the way of his own adventure, yet he went against Bulma's (his only friend's) words in favor of a stranger.

Or the time he noticed Namu's stomach growling, and offered him food from the plate he was eating, instead of eating it all himself.

But you're right in that Goku might be selfless as an adult too. My point is that he's displayed this towards strangers in the past. If he's still the same, it sort of goes against the notion that Goku only cares/thinks about himself and his close friends/family when he fights.

But while it was a goal, Goku wasn't gathering the DB's to make a wish. He just wanted a keepsake. Upa lost his father who could be brought back. That's not a sacrifice. He'd temporarily give up an important keepsake to help a friend. Helping out a turtle or giving a hungry man aren't sacrifices or selfless. They are small good deeds. It's not like Goku is having to choose between saving his dying son or saving a stranger. I also never claimed he only thinks of himself or his friends and family when he fights.

I can't help but feel that you think it's a knock against him that hisself, his family and his friends are his biggest values and motivators is a knock against him.

Does this mean he gives zero shits about any planet he visits that's not called Earth?

Never claimed he didn't, just that fighting for the Namekians who he never met besides Kami and Piccolo weren't the big motivations for him.

[Doctor.]

It wasn't the biggest motivation, but it was still part of the reason he was fighting Freeza.

[ABED]

It wasn't the biggest motivation, but it was still part of the reason he was fighting Freeza.

I'd say a relatively small part, but certainly a part.

[Kunzait_83]

How can you say Goku never fights for the world? He was fighting for both the deceased Saiyans and the deceased Namekians against Freeza.

Yes. Exactly. And what do we call fighting on behalf of a bunch of people who have already been murdered?

All together now:

REVENGE.

Revenge at first for the dead Namekians and (kinda) the Saiya-jin. Then a bit later on into the fight, revenge for Kuririn. Goku straight up even CALLS it revenge in his dialogue.

Once again, revenge is a bit of a huge cornerstone of the Xia's values.

He said he was sacrificing himself for the Earth (not "for you guys", he specifically said he was sacrificing himself for the Earth, probably the first time Goku says this) in the Cell arc.

Goku's sacrifice in the Cell Games is a bit of an interesting moment for him character-wise. If I'm not mistaken, its one of the rare times (possibly one of the ONLY times) he feels a genuine sense of severely and especially harsh remorse for his more selfish actions: in this case, callously not thinking of his own son's feelings regarding the fight against Cell and purely projecting his own views on fighting onto Gohan. Watch the scene again where Piccolo reams out Goku for not considering Gohan's feelings on the mater: Goku is VISIBLY shaken in a way and to a degree we RARELY ever see out of him (he's typically by default usually pretty blissfully oblivious).

For once he actually is realizing the full ramifications of how badly he fucked up on this one. It may be one of the rare times we see him have something that closely resembles an actual existential crisis. The only other times that come close to that that I can think of (off the top of my head) are when he first finds out what the murderous Saiya-jin are all about and on both occasions where Kuririn is killed.

His sacrifice against Cell thus is pretty obviously his attempt at making amends for his shitty treatment of Gohan. Its one of those moments that gives a rare glimpse into the fact that Goku DOES sometimes (very occasionally) demonstrate a bit more in the way of actual depth than many fans generally realize.

Goku obviously cares a GREAT deal about his close friends and family. Youxia are more than capable of such close personal bonds: they're not stone cold monsters or anything. But as Muten and several other characters continually point out (correctly) that the larger picture of "the world" in an abstract sense means VERY little to Goku, especially in comparison to testing his skills as a martial artist.

Don't misunderstand: if some poor defenseless innocent is in direct imminent threat not five seconds in front of Goku's face, then he (as would any Youxia) will certainly step in and come to their defense (partially out of a genuine desire to help them and of course partially, lets be real here, because its probably another prime opportunity to battle-test his skills).

BUT... if you were to have a situation where Goku has to put aside his martial artist's ideals for the sake of helping out a bunch of nameless, faceless strangers he's never met and cannot see the direct plight of and whose safety isn't in obvious and imminent danger right directly before his eyes, then let's not anyone kid themselves: Goku simply isn't going to give much of a crap. He's having that fight, even if it means risking the safety of those nameless, faceless strangers. Goku, on a fundamental archetypal level, simply isn't capable of thinking like that, and any viewer or reader expecting such a character to would only be the viewer/reader setting themselves up for disappointment when he, as is his nature, prioritizes The Fight well far ahead of some lofty notions of Western altruism that are by and large completely and utterly foreign to this genre and this character-type (the countless, countless threads and discussions of people constantly bemoaning "Why is Goku such a JERK?" is clearly testament enough to this).

Goku's the farthest thing ever from a "superhero" in the traditional Western comic booky sense. He's a Martial Arts Fantasy Hero (aka a Youxia in Chinese terminology: DB being nothing if not largely and hugely Chinese based above all else) and there's a GIGANTIC WORLD of difference between the two on a colossally fundamental level.

Western DB fans (post-dub anyway) have a long, long, LONG history of projecting the ideals of Western comic book/action adventure heroes onto DB (Goku in particular), largely out of stone cold ignorance and unfamiliarity with Martial Arts Fiction as a storytelling genre. Its one of the big reasons I went to so much work to make that gargantuan thread in the first place.

[Froggy]

I'm not an expect in literature, but this is what i think:

vegeta is supporting character.
the only way to make gohan the lead is to kill-off the previous long-running lead (goku). Toriyama tried to do this but it didnt work. he also need to never show goku again after death and extend the story to expand the new lead.
making a child as a lead in the last chapter of a long running story while previous hero is still on-screen is impossible.

when vegeta, the opponent of the hero that challenge him and keeps a balance in the story, already achieved ssj it was decided goku will stay the hero.
the rest of the characters dont really have a reason to exist except for fathering children and keeping friendly environment.


that is why i dont really like Beerus as an enemy. he is someone goku will never surpass and knowing it makes the plot boring.

[Doctor.]

that is why i dont really like Beerus as an enemy. he is someone goku will never surpass and knowing it makes the plot boring.

Him not being surpassed as of yet doesn't mean Goku will never surpass him. I think it's fair to assume Goku will get a lot stronger in Super.

[Kunzait_83]

Kunzait_83, I like your analysis.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of modern DBZ stuff?

BoG I've mixed feelings on, but I love, love, LOVE the ending, which goes a LONG way towards making me overlook my misgivings with it.

Revival of F I've yet to see in its entirety: only snippets here and there. So I have to reserve any serious judgement on that movie. That said I fucking adore the huge epic throwdown between the Z Warriors and Freeza's underlings: no joke, that quickly has shot up to become one of my favorite series moments period.

Though I have to call shenanigans on them going especially out of their way to not kill any of them. I mean granted, generally speaking the Z crew also wouldn't go out of their way TO kill opponents, but if they happen to off particularly dangerous foes who are a significant threat to others (like Freeza's thugs) they've historically never once let that bug them too much (I'm fairly certain that those first two Freeza mooks that Kuririn and Gohan take down when they first land on Namek weren't ever again resurfacing from that lake they got sent hurtling into).

Goku tut-tuts Vegeta a little bit for killing Reacoom and Butta, but that's mainly because they were already beaten, and thus Vegeta's finishing them while they were already out cold was kind of an egregious use of excessive force for someone like Goku.

Also I'm not at ALL a fan of Freeza's new yellow form. Just the laziest possible design (a simple recolor then call it a day? for the big return of the series' most iconic villain after several decades? really Toriyama?). He looks like he has some kind of kidney disease or something.

And the blue haired SSJ God form is definitely and without question one new SSJ form too many at this point, plus the basic idea of it (SSJ but now with BLUE hair!) feels like something more out of a bad DBZ parody that pokes fun at all the different forms and transformations that characters run through rather than something the series should actually seriously do.

Otherwise, I still need to see the movie in its entirety before I really say too much more on it beyond that.

Rocketman's various posts about "Godku" are also kinda hard to argue against and probably have way more validity to them then some fans who are defenders of this stuff are willing to admit. Plus Gohan's weirdly shitty treatment as a character is starting to get kinda awkward and hard to ignore.

Both movies (unlike Super) at least LOOK nice though. I also really love some of the new dogi and changshan designs. Specifically Kuririn's in BoG, Tenshinhan's in both movies, and Goku's in Revival of F: just awesome looking designs all around. I'll certainly happily take them as alternate skins/costumes in whatever future DB games come about down the line (granting of course that they're also actually, you know, GOOD and otherwise worthwhile as games of course).

The "Yo! Son Goku and Friends" special on the other hand is goddamned abysmal though, as is what I've seen thus far of Super. I'm not even just fixating on all the animation bullshit in the latter's case (though that sure as shit doesn't help its watchability either). Both I have more or less the same problem with: they fall square into the trap I'd long beforehand suspected that the series might fall into should it ever get brought back in the 2000s or 2010s, post-modern Shonen fandom, post-influence of One Piece, and moreover post-the heyday of the sorts of Wuxia material that DB was largely drawing from the zeitgeist of in the 80s and early 90s.

They both rework DB's priorities from mythical fantasy martial arts and instead into millennial anime/Shonen fandom's completely inexplicable and impenetrable (to me anyway) obsession with frolicking friendshippy sappiness, and stack the whimsical comedy to kung fu ratio WAY too heavily in favor of the former over the latter (rather than maintain a more or less even balance between the two, which is when the series is at its best).

Tarble is also probably the worst, most singularly pointless character in the ENTIRE franchise bar none.

"Hi! I'm Vegeta's COMPLETELY never before mentioned kid brother! I exist!"

*Goes on to do absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to even remotely justify his ass-pull of an existence*

Immeasurably worse than either Super or the JSAT special though is both bits of new Bardock material (Episode of Bardock and DB Minus). Both are just inexcusably shitty and have absolutely ZERO redeeming value whatsoever between them whatsoever (the JSAT Special at least had the Kikuchi score, and Super... well Super has the benefit of my not having seen more of it past where I stopped, so for all I know MAYBE it gets better?).

Both Bardock things though are just total skidmarks upon the original TV anime special, which is hands down one of the all time BEST bits of the whole franchise unquestionably for my money.

Overall in summation: the two films have SOME things I like at least, but are both a mixed bag at best. The rest though... uh... kinda not so hot if I'm being perfectly honest.

DB's just WAY too much of a product of its time period (80s and early 90s) for a revival of it THIS long after the fact (and after SO much across anime and across Wuxia has changed over the ensuing years) to have an easy time working. I've actually long, long been kind of baffled actually as to why so many current fans DO so desperately want the series to make some kind of a comeback.

Really it had a HUGELY long run for more than a frigging DECADE, encompassing more than 40+ volumes of manga, 500+ episodes of anime, and dozens upon dozens of movies and video games. At a certain point, when is enough enough? I'd be fine with more stuff if it were actually... you know... GOOD and worthwhile enough to justify its existence (as something with as long and dense a history and output as DB would kind of have to do after a certain point: justify its continued dragging out), but barring that? Just let sleeping dogs lie. Some things are just inescapably and inseparably of their time and place. DB is I would say one of those things for sure.

Personally, unlike so many fans (for whatever reasons that I'm unable to really grasp beyond a few theories I'll keep to myself for now) I don't really NEED more DB than what's already been there since the 90s. I'd say that that was MORE than plenty as it is.

[Relenanator]

How would this show go on if Goku and Vegeta were retired? I mean, this is Goku's story and Vegeta has become a permanent and vital part of his growth. In fact, the worst part of GT had to have been when Goku decided to unceremoniously fuck off with the Earth dragon forever and for no real reason.

As for the "Passing of the torch" they tried to do with Gohan in the cell games - I honestly think that was one of the worst decisions made in DBZ. I have no idea why Toriyama decided to try and heavily sideline his main protagonist when he never seems sure whether he's going to end his series or not.

Maybe he was trying to pull of something similar to what Naruto ended up accomplishing with Bolt but the problem with that is that Kishimoto made sure all his ducks were in a row before trying to pass the story on to Naruto's son. (I'm in no way saying that Kishimoto is a good writer. I'm merely saying that he tends to think out his stories and characters much more then Toriyama.)

This is part of the drawback to Toriyama's "Do whatever I feel like" writing mentality; it works great when almost everything is a joke and about adventure but it stops working when you start wanting your characters and story arcs to involve serious and long lasting consequences to their actions. And I suppose one could argue that there was nothing wrong with the way Goku tried to get Gohan to take up his mantle but then Gohan is a reluctant "I don't really want to fight" kind of guy who most people don't really care for in a shounon hero, so it's no wounder Toriyama had to bring back Goku.

Anyway, I'm going a little off topic here. The point is, as Dragon Ball stands in it's current state, it would be detrimental to retire Goku and Vageta as the leads.