Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cody]

Ehhh let's shift gears. So seeing as how Beerus and Goku can clash fists with enough force to threaten the Universe then what's it going to mean for when Goku punches Freeza right in his smug face in the next saga?

The Universe can't take the shockwave of a punch but Freeza can take the direct punch and keep fighting?

It means Freeza has Universal-level durability, correct. Considering how casually and effortlessly he pushed apart the Earth in even the more relatively subdued movies, I'm not too surprised.

What seems odd to me is that the God-tier Saiyans would still need to breath air. I mean, think about it. You have these Gods with the power to destroy the universe, but they need air? It just seems weird to me.

Not really. As I explained in my first post on here; the feat is too weird to put them at that level. PC Kryptonian tier? Absolutely. Which is an awesome feat in itself if you look back on the strength feats PC Kryptonians have performed. But far from universal.

[Saiyan007]

The Gods aren't universal but in the galactic tier in raw output

[Neon Z]

Well, I mentioned this in the Versus thread, but....as long as Dragon Ball feats essentially boil down to being super strong, super fast, and shooting laser beams, they're never going to be able to defeat halfway decent telepaths, reality warpers, mages, etc.

Because, in the words of me, "Punching someone as super speed doesn't mean anything when the other guy can catch your speed and turn it into cupcake, and rearrange your molecules into a Teletubby."

Dragon Ball power sets work great against guys with similar power sets, but they're just not equipped to deal with "unconventional" methods of fighting. Unless they get out of this "can punch harder and harder and harder" rut, they're never going to be able to beat any of the higher-ups in Marvel or DC. Or even Star Wars, for that matter. Oldschool Grandmaster Luke turns Goku into a vegetable and compresses him to the size of a marble because, no matter how physically powerful Goku gets, he just doesn't have a way to deal with esoteric power sets.

Dragonball's power set also includes high enough ki often canceling other special abilities though, like Chaotzu's telekinesis having no effect against Nappa, or Vegetto keeping his consciousness and power as a candy.

I'm sorry, but...compared to the guys we're discussing, the "special abilities" in Dragon Ball are pathetic. You can't remotely compare Chiaotzu's psychic powers to Professor X, Phoenix, Luke, or the Martian Manhunter. Buu's transmutation skills are a joke compared to Dr. Strange, Doom, Zatanna, or insert-cosmic-entity-here.

And a reality warper could just turn Ki into lead and drop Goku like a brick. Half of these guys can just bring themselves back to life at will anyway.

You're applying a no limits fallacy to the limited protection to esoteric powers that Ki offers. The difference with the other franchises is that they have demonstrated their abilities reliably and consistently over decades. And it's not like it happens often in DB anyway. Nappa did it once, Vegetto did it once, probably due to the incompatibility of the magic used to create him with Buu, which is indicated by the effect Buu's body has on Vegetto, and Vegeta managed to shake off Babidi's control. However, as I've said, the abilities used by Chiaotzu, Babidi, and Buu that we are discussing just aren't all that impressive compared to what the guys in Marvel and DC do. Even Janemba's much-touted "Reality Warping" is frankly subpar when compared to even the low-tier reality warpers in these franchises.

I think the Chaotzu incident is relevant because it shows that unless the psychic strength is at least comparable in strength to the raw ki power, it basically doesn't seem to work. It's not a no limits fallacy. If you've got someone who can destroy a planet with telekinesis, it obviously will work on Saiyan Saga Goku, but saying that a Jedi, with the extremely low raw power output they've been shown to have outside of the old EU, would be actually able to strangle someone on that level power is the actual "no limits" fallacy.

[Rockman X]

Since i can't seem to make a new thread on this board.. can anyone tell me how long will it take for us to see some NEW content in DB:Super? 20 episodes 30 episodes? I hope they wrap up Revival of freeza in that 20 episode mark more than 20 episodes of rehashed content is just bloody ridiculous! i'm seriously losing my patience Revival of F will be released on blu ray by the time they air the first episode of Freeza on DB:Super.

In fact WTF is the purpose of rehashing the movies? i was so pumped for DB:Super and then i just found out that its a poorly animated filler version of Battle of Gods&Revival of F WOW Toei Animation way to totally bluball the hyped up fans! also the DBS Episode 5 looks like DB PEE PEE.. i mean seriously..
HA HA HA HA HA what is this... what is this!? HA HA HA

[Pannaliciour]

The Gods aren't universal but in the galactic tier in raw output

Hmm 4 punches and the universe is bye bye. And these are only punches he no energy beam.

And old Kai repeatly sad that Beerus alone can destroy the universe.

[Saiyan007]

The Gods aren't universal but in the galactic tier in raw output

Hmm 4 punches and the universe is bye bye. And these are only punches he no energy beam.

And old Kai repeatly sad that Beerus alone can destroy the universe.

that isn't universal since it takes him more than 1 punch

It's in the galactic range

[Bullza]

I'd guess the Resurrection F arc would be about the same lenght as the Battle of Gods arc which looks to be 14 or maybe 15 episodes so we may have to wait until episode 28-30 before the Universe 6 saga starts.

I don't agree with them rehashing the movies at all but I don't particularly mind so much when it comes to RoF because hopefully we get to see SSJG Vegeta, how they became SSGSS's, Frieza's training and maybe Champa so it should offer a lot more than what we've had so far.

Also the animation for that episode was horrific but none of the others have been nearly as bad.

[Blackstripe]

The Gods aren't universal but in the galactic tier in raw output

Hmm 4 punches and the universe is bye bye. And these are only punches he no energy beam.

And old Kai repeatly sad that Beerus alone can destroy the universe.

that isn't universal since it takes him more than 1 punch

It's in the galactic range

Well, we don't know how much of his power Beerus was using there. If he was only using 60 or 70%, he might be able to one-shot the universe, especially if he uses a ki blast.

But yes, that's just speculation.

[Rockman X]

I'd guess the Resurrection F arc would be about the same lenght as the Battle of Gods arc which looks to be 14 or maybe 15 episodes so we may have to wait until episode 28-30 before the Universe 6 saga starts.

WOW this is bad i'm skipping DBS until it actually reaches a point where there's new content and besides there's always that manga to read.. that's super fast and will keep me updated on DBS.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, if someone would be nice enough to give me a quick review since I've been gone:

-Can Beerus actually destroy a universe in one shot now?

-How much power does he need to use to do that?

-Aside from Godku, Whis, and Rageta, do we have any hints that Beerus isn't literally as powerful quindecillion Ultimate Gohans? Because, if even Vegetto's full power (less than x400 Buuhan) is equivalent to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Beerus's power, every other DB character just got a MAJOR upgrade.

[Doctor.]

-Can Beerus actually destroy a universe in one shot now?

-How much power does he need to use to do that?

Not confirmed, but he probably can. Him and a Super Saiyan God Goku, who hadn't achieved his full power at that point, were clashing in space with their fists and causing planets and stars to disintegrate light years away. Elder Kaioshin also said the universe would be destroyed in 3 more hits. So, it's certainly possible that Beerus, at full power (since he wasn't even at 60% here), could destroy the universe in one shot with medium to high effort. I won't say he can though, since that's vague as of yet.

-Aside from Godku, Whis, and Rageta, do we have any hints that Beerus isn't literally as powerful quindecillion Ultimate Gohans? Because, if even Vegetto's full power (less than x400 Buuhan) is equivalent to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Beerus's power, every other DB character just got a MAJOR upgrade.

Rageta is around 10% of Beerus' power. That's it. Depends on how strong you think Vegeta got. You can place him at SS, SS2 or SS3 Vegetto level (or even lower, though that wouldn't make much sense) if you want.

[RandomGuy96]

-Can Beerus actually destroy a universe in one shot now?

-How much power does he need to use to do that?

Not confirmed, but he probably can. Him and a Super Saiyan God Goku, who hadn't achieved his full power at that point, were clashing in space with their fists and causing planets and stars to disintegrate light years away. Elder Kaioshin also said the universe would be destroyed in 3 more hits. So, it's certainly possible that Beerus, at full power (since he wasn't even at 60% here), could destroy the universe in one shot with medium to high effort. I won't say he can though, since that's vague as of yet.

-Aside from Godku, Whis, and Rageta, do we have any hints that Beerus isn't literally as powerful quindecillion Ultimate Gohans? Because, if even Vegetto's full power (less than x400 Buuhan) is equivalent to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Beerus's power, every other DB character just got a MAJOR upgrade.

Rageta is around 10% of Beerus' power. That's it. Depends on how strong you think Vegeta got. You can place him at SS, SS2 or SS3 Vegetto level (or even lower, though that wouldn't make much sense) if you want.

So, Elder Kaioshin said that the side effects of their battle could destroy the universe, after he already said that Beerus could destroy the universe? And this is treated as fact by the narrative, and we see stars light years away get destroyed as part of these side effects? That seems pretty clear cut to me.

Rageta is not close to 10% of Beerus's power, but logically he can't be THAT much below if Beerus felt the need to use 10%. Well, do we have any hints of how strong Rageta is relative to anyone but Beerus? Really, if there's even a hint that he's comparable to any form of Vegetto, that automatically insanely upgrades every character, as there's limit on how big the gaps in power can be from Vegetto on down. Vegetto is less than four hundred times as strong Buuhan, who is less than twice as strong as Gohan, who is less than twice as strong as Super Buu, who is close in power to SS3 Gotenks, who is exactly eight times stronger than SS Gotenks, etc.

This would be true even if he was "only" galaxy level. Suddenly Cell's solar system busting statement (or feat, if you include supplementary material) doesn't look/sound so crazy anymore.

[Doctor.]

So, Elder Kaioshin said that the side effects of their battle could destroy the universe, after he already said that Beerus could destroy the universe? And this is treated as fact by the narrative, and we see stars light years away get destroyed as part of these side effects? That seems pretty clear cut to me.

Yes, but he also said that Goku and Beerus would die if the universe was destroyed. Take that as you will.

Rageta is not close to 10% of Beerus's power, but logically he can't be THAT much below if Beerus felt the need to use 10%. Well, do we have any hints of how strong Rageta is relative to anyone but Beerus? Really, if there's even a hint that he's comparable to any form of Vegetto, that automatically insanely upgrades every character, as there's limit on how big the gaps in power can be from Vegetto on down. Vegetto is less than four hundred times as strong Buuhan, who is less than twice as strong as Gohan, who is less than twice as strong as Super Buu, who is close in power to SS3 Gotenks, who is exactly eight times stronger than SS Gotenks, etc.

This would be true even if he was "only" galaxy level. Suddenly Cell's solar system busting statement (or feat, if you include supplementary material) doesn't look/sound so crazy anymore.

I don't know. Logically Vegetto needs to be below SSG's 80% like in BoG, and to say Vegeta got over 400x stronger (and that's an understatement) is really ridiculous. But one could say SS3 Vegetto is below Beerus' 1% and he wouldn't be exactly wrong at all.

[RandomGuy96]

So, Elder Kaioshin said that the side effects of their battle could destroy the universe, after he already said that Beerus could destroy the universe? And this is treated as fact by the narrative, and we see stars light years away get destroyed as part of these side effects? That seems pretty clear cut to me.

Yes, but he also said that Goku and Beerus would die if the universe was destroyed. Take that as you will.

Rageta is not close to 10% of Beerus's power, but logically he can't be THAT much below if Beerus felt the need to use 10%. Well, do we have any hints of how strong Rageta is relative to anyone but Beerus? Really, if there's even a hint that he's comparable to any form of Vegetto, that automatically insanely upgrades every character, as there's limit on how big the gaps in power can be from Vegetto on down. Vegetto is less than four hundred times as strong Buuhan, who is less than twice as strong as Gohan, who is less than twice as strong as Super Buu, who is close in power to SS3 Gotenks, who is exactly eight times stronger than SS Gotenks, etc.

This would be true even if he was "only" galaxy level. Suddenly Cell's solar system busting statement (or feat, if you include supplementary material) doesn't look/sound so crazy anymore.

I don't know. Logically Vegetto needs to be below SSG's 80% like in BoG, and to say Vegeta got over 400x stronger (and that's an understatement) is really ridiculous. But one could say SS3 Vegetto is below Beerus' 1% and he wouldn't be exactly wrong at all.

I assume by that he means that there'd be nothing left to sustain either of them. Being able to survive in a vacuum doesn't change the fact that Beerus and Goku are still organic beings.

But that's the thing. Even if he is less than 1% of Beerus, it doesn't matter. As long as there's even a hint that he's as strong relative to Beerus as a grain of sand is large relative to the Earth.

[nickzambuto]

Anyone else not a fan of how Goku is just randomly powering up for no reason? If it was a force of will that unlocked the Super Saiyan God's power, it'd be epic, but during the beam struggle Goku is literally giving up only to randomly receive a power boost without earning it. That's pretty weak.

[Doctor.]

Anyone else not a fan of how Goku is just randomly powering up for no reason? If it was a force of will that unlocked the Super Saiyan God's power, it'd be epic, but during the beam struggle Goku is literally giving up only to randomly receive a power boost without earning it. That's pretty weak.

Yea, I had no problem with the power-up in episode 11 because it was being built-up throughout episodes 10 and 11. But this one in episode 12 was utterly nonsensical.

[sintzu]

I hope they wrap up Revival of freeza in that 20 episode mark more than 20 episodes of rehashed content is just bloody ridiculous!

Based on how they're doing the current are and what we know about episode 20,the F arc will probably last till episode 30 at least.

What's ridiculous is them taking a story that's made for a single movie's running time and turning it into a 14-15 episode arc which = 5 movies.

There's a lot of ways they can change F's story to fit an arc's episode count so hopefully it'll turn out better then this one.

[Neon Z]

Rageta is around 10% of Beerus' power. That's it. Depends on how strong you think Vegeta got. You can place him at SS, SS2 or SS3 Vegetto level (or even lower, though that wouldn't make much sense) if you want.

I don't think Rage boost Vegeta is really close to 10% of Beerus' power. When Beerus' used that amount of power, he completely ignored Vegeta's attack, so Rage Vegeta was clearly bellow that. Now, you can argue that 10% was the minimum amount of power necessary to make Vegeta's attacks useless, which would place Vegeta around 5% to 7% of Beerus' power if you're using the old scouter scales, but there's nothing necessarily indicating that.

[Bullza]

What's ridiculous is them taking a story that's made for a single movie's running time and turning it into a 14-15 episode arc which = 5 movies.

I wished they'd got a little faster but I certainly don't think it's ridiculous. A lot will have happened in those first 30 episodes of so.

They introduced Beerus, he fought Goku on King Kai's planet, he fought the other characters on the ship, Goku became a SSJGod, Goku and Beerus fought again, Goku and Vegeta will go off to train with Whis, Frieza will be resurrected, he'll train, he'll show up on Earth and the Z Fighters will battle his 1000 man army, Goku and Vegeta will fight Frieza and become SSGSS's and Champa might be involved somehow.

By Dragon Ball standards that's a lot to happen in only 30 episodes.

In DBZ after 30 episodes all that had happened was Goku and Piccolo teaming up to defeat Raditz, they trained, the Z Fighters fought the Saibamen and then there was battle with Nappa. That's it.

The Saiyan Saga could easily have been the lenght of a single movie.

[sintzu]

A lot will have happened in those first 30 episodes of so.

They introduced Beerus, he fought Goku on King Kai's planet, he fought the other characters on the ship, Goku became a SSJGod, Goku and Beerus fought again, Goku and Vegeta will go off to train with Whis, Freeza will be resurrected, he'll train, he'll show up on Earth and the Z Fighters will battle his 1000 man army, Goku and Vegeta will fight Freeza and become SSGSS's.

Those 30 episodes are doing things that were done with better animation and fight choreography in 2 movies.

When they announced they were doing this I was OK with it and defending it cause I thought they were going to change things up to keep Super fresh for those who've seen the movies but instead they're taking the exact same plot points and stretching them out with worse animation and fight choreography.

The F arc isn't out yet so hopefully they change it up and improve on the animation and choreography.