Goku and Vegeta should have been retired as leads

[Cipher]

The very act of going up against Piccolo was a life endangering act, I'm fully behind Goku staying within the tournament rules
- Goku knew he was in no danger of losing to Freeza at full power. Freeza had told him that he was at 50 percent, so Goku can extrapolate
- Gohan was in absolutely no danger of losing even with the senzu.
- That only seems like a sportsman like fight in light of a retcon. I still don't know why this isn't obvious to everyone. Even when Goku irresponsibly lets an enemy go, he never does it with the intent of someone else cleaning it up. He wouldn't let Buu be revived unless he intended to fight him. It wasn't in any way written as a sportsman like battle, either in execution or tone.
- Another retcon. After the fight, he told Piccolo that he probably couldn't have won had he gone full out. Unless you think he lied, but he was upfront about his reasons for not fighting full out, so why lie?
- Beerus is so capricious, it's hard to predict what he would've done had Goku not challenged him.

Not to dredge this back up (I have no idea what warnings were issued for), but for the sake of analysis:

-Goku challenging Piccolo is necessary, but staying within the tournament rules, to the extent that even lets Piccolo land a free blow when God intervenes, rightfully terrifies everyone. He's not fighting to save the world; he's fighting to win the title (and don't get me wrong, it's great, but totally silly and self-serving). Giving Piccolo a Senzu and letting him go when everyone else is interested in containing him is also totally reckless; he wants the rival, despite the fact he barely managed to win.

-Goku had no idea whether he was in danger of losing to Freeza; he suspects he'll be okay, but Freeza manages quite an even fight after that; it's not open and shut. Kaio is the voice of reason at that point, and the story makes that clear by his reflecting on Goku being driven purely by pride and rage. Either way he's taking a massive risk for the sake of his own ego and anger.

-Gohan is in so much danger of losing that Piccolo calls Goku out for being a maniac who's badly misjudged his son's personality. Again, a massive risk with everyone's lives on the line for the sake of fighting sportsmanship.

-The Goku and Vegeta fight in the Boo arc is completely reckless, but both suspect they're the strongest being in the universe by that point and that Kaioshin has misjudged the situation. Only after Boo begins to revive do they realize how much danger they're in. While Goku's Super Saiyan 3 is pretty clearly a later story addition, that's still the story we have, and it's consistent with his character. Either way, you once again have a voice of reason character in Kaioshin who begs Goku not to indulge in the fight; Goku threatens him and decides to fight Vegeta regardless.

- Goku may not let enemies go with the intent of someone else cleaning it up -- he definitely wants to rise to the challenge-- but he does let them go with no guarantee he can clean them up, and it's clearly for his own thrill (he admits this openly when asking Kuirin to spare Vegeta).

- Re: Fat Boo: Goku later admits to Vegeta he probably could have killed him. Again, that's the story we have. And while he justifies this by wanting to see the next generation step up, he's also bored and cosmically powerful by that point -- it's consistent for him to want to see something exciting out of other fighters just as much as he wants them to be able to protect Earth (and Boo is a pretty singular threat to use as a threshold for their ability to defeat villains).

- True, on Beerus. But it's consistent with Goku's character that all the gods are worried he'll the one person to challenge and anger him, ignoring any dangerous repercussions.

Goku's a fighting maniac first and a hero second. There are moments when he's fighting seriously and wholly to save others, but they're not his usual M.O. Plenty of his decisions put others at great risk.

[ABED]

I would trust in Goku, he knew he could win, and sure it's a little "self serving" but he has the right to make that call. A punch to the face wasn't going to end the match.

Goku had no idea whether he was in danger of losing to Freeza; he suspects he'll be okay, but Freeza manages quite an even fight after that

He had every idea. He knew how strong Freeza would get. Freeza told him how strong he was and Goku can figure out what twice that power amounts to. And appearences are deceiving. While the fight looked even, it wasn't. Goku took everything Freeza could throw at him and was able to taunt him. This wasn't just about defeating Freeza, that's too good for his crimes. Goku wanted to completely break him. Showing Freeza was a lot worse. Goku is driven by rage at that point, but it was rage that gave him that power to begin with and he had every reason to be upset and take it out on Freeza. There was a risk he might not get off the planet, but he wasn't in danger of losing that battle.

But Goku didn't misjudge Gohan's personality! He knew his son wasn't a person that loved fighting. Why would that matter anyway? No one has yet to give me a cogent argument about why that matters if Gohan is the only one capable of killing Cell. And would people stop using Piccolo's line as evidence. It was a moment of concern, but he wasn't reading Gohan's mind, there's little indication that that was what Gohan was thinking. Gohan was the only one who could win, I can't stress that enough.

that's still the story we have, and it's consistent with his character... it's clearly for his own thrill

It's not. You can't just say "that's the story we have" it's a HUGE contradiction. And Goku never once let a villain live with the intention of someone else cleaning up the mess. He didn't let Vegeta or Piccolo go with the intent of having Gohan or someone else fight them. Yes, his OWN.

who begs Goku not to indulge in the fight; Goku threatens him and decides to fight Vegeta regardless

Not what happened. Vegeta threatened to kill more innocent people unless he fought him and they were on even footing until later on, Toriyama decided Goku had one more transformation.

- Re: Fat Boo: Goku later admits to Vegeta he probably could have killed him.
It's called a retcon.

while he justifies this by wanting to see the next generation step up, he's also bored and cosmically powerful by that point -- it's consistent for him to want to see something exciting out of other fighters just as much as he wants them to be able to protect Earth

No, he would not just let something that powerful out just to stave off boredom. There's zero evidence in the series for this idea.

- True, on Beerus. But it's consistent with Goku's character that all the gods are worried he'll the one person to challenge and anger him, ignoring any dangerous repercussions.

And if he doesn't fight him?

[Cipher]

But Goku didn't misjudge Gohan's personality! He knew his son wasn't a person that loved fighting. Why would that matter anyway? No one has yet to give me a cogent argument about why that matters if Gohan is the only one capable of killing Cell. And would people stop using Piccolo's line as evidence. It was a moment of concern, but he wasn't reading Gohan's mind, there's little indication that that was what Gohan was thinking. Gohan was the only one who could win, I can't stress that enough.

Knowing Gohan is the only one capable is different from throwing Cell a Senzu. What do you think the purpose of Piccolo's line is, and Goku's reaction to it? Ultimately Gohan succeeds regardless, but Piccolo points out that Gohan isn't excited or motivated by the same kinds of danger Goku is, and Goku takes it seriously as a moment of revelation; immediately afterward he volunteers to rush back into the fight.

It's not. You can't just say "that's the story we have" it's a HUGE contradiction. And Goku never once let a villain live with the intention of someone else cleaning up the mess. He didn't let Vegeta or Piccolo go with the intent of having Gohan or someone else fight them. Yes, his OWN.

I never said he intended for someone else to clean up (with the exception of Boo, in which his interest very much lies in the capability of the next generation). I actually said the opposite. But he does let them go without being able to guarantee he'll be able to win a second round. Piccolo is an example of this, but Vegeta's arguably the biggest and worst (it's a huge moment for the series and one of the first instances of Toriyama being really clear about the negative sides of Goku's Saiyan heritage).

Not what happened. Vegeta threatened to kill more innocent people unless he fought him and they were on even footing until later on, Toriyama decided Goku had one more transformation.

Vegeta does threaten to kill more innocent people. Kaioshin also begs Goku not to fight, as they'll revive Boo. Goku threatens to blast Kaioshin out of the way. But I actually just rewatched that scene to check, and here's how it plays out:

(At the tournament ring)

Kaioshin: "You mustn't, Goku-san! If you were to fight here, you would play right into Babidi's hands! Your energy would be absorbed, and Majin Boo will most assuredly be revived!"
Goku: "Vegeta, you let yourself fall under Babidi's spell, and lost your self-control, and did all this, all in order to get me serious. Am I wrong?"
Gohan: "What's this?"
Vegeta: "If I hadn't done all this, you wouldn't have fought me! In only one day, you'll disappear from this world. And yet all this gets in the way!"
Kaioshin: "S-so for that ... just for that, you've done this foolish thing?"
Vegeta: "Foolish thing? Foolish thing, you say?! This is everything to me! It does not matter what happens with Majin Boo or anything else! (More about his pride and being surpassed by Goku)."
Goku (to Babidi): "I have decided to fight Vegeta!"
Kaioshin: "Just a moment! If you'e going to fight him no matter what, then do it after you have defeated me!" (Blocks Vegeta)
(Goku raises his hand at Kaioshin and begins charging an energy blast)
Gohan: "F-father!"
Kaioshin: "Understood. Do as you like."
Goku: "I'm sorry, Kaioshin-sama."

Upon being transported (by Babidi, who's delighted they've "started fighting amongst themselves.")

Gohan: "You can't, Father!"
Kaioshin (resigned): "It's all right. Having come to this, there's nothing we can do. You two feel free to fight. Son Gohan and I will break through this entrance and go fight with Babidi and Dabura."

Kaioshin then he talks about how even risking a shock awakening Majin Boo is better than letting Goku and Vegeta's energy be funneled into him. Goku doesn't respond.

Nothing about that scene really implies a selfless motivation from Goku; certainly Vegeta threatening civilians gets his attention, but it's the call to challenge and his personal disappointment in Vegeta that prompts him to have the fight then and there, with the near-certain outcome of resurrecting Boo. Both Gohan and Kaioshin are calling for an alternative resolution, Goku apologizes (not talking about saving lives), and there's even an implication that they may be able to change locations themselves or otherwise subdue Vegeta. Goku won't allow it. And that's just the dialogue; everything about the way the scene is presented -- music, angles -- portray it as a moment of flaw on the part of Goku and Vegeta. It's not heroism -- they're just hardened fighters willing to gamble on Kaioshin's estimations being wrong. That's part of the thrust of that portion of the arc.

Please don't respond with half-sentences as flippant as "Not what happened."

It's called a retcon.

That's what I meant by "that's the story we have." Retcons have no baring on how the fiction reads as a completed whole. We're looking at the character the series, in its completed form, presents. Even if you do want to discuss the idea of it being an element added later, Toriyama still chooses to have Goku comment that he could have ended the fight earlier, seeming to believe it would be consistent with his character.

No, he would not just let something that powerful out just to stave off boredom. There's zero evidence in the series for this idea.

There's no direct evidence for Goku's boredom influencing his decision to leave Boo to the next generation, but as that's classically been part of his motivation, it's not a difficult element to add. Throughout the series Goku's much less occupied with ensuring safety than with insuring there are still exciting challenges; it's hard to believe seven years as one of the strongest beings in the afterlife have changed that. It's exactly what his motivations in letting Piccolo and Vegeta go are, although in those cases he wants to fight them again himself.

And if he doesn't fight him?

By the time Beerus is on Earth threatening destruction, he does have to fight him, so I listed it under the "selfish goals that happen to align with saving the world" camp.

In this case I was referring to the fact that all the highest gods are absolutely terrified Goku will challenge him before they meet, ignoring any warnings about the danger in doing so, which speaks volumes as to how the series views him.

[ABED]

Beerus - he's so fickle that it doesn't matter what Goku does. Even if Goku hadn't challenged him (in a good natured way might I add), there's no telling what he would've done.

Retcons have no baring on how the fiction reads as a completed whole.

Yes they do. If the logic doesn't track, it absolutely does have a baring.

still chooses to have Goku comment that he could have ended the fight earlier, seeming to believe it would be consistent with his character.

Or just doing his best to cover a plot hole.

but as that's classically been part of his motivation, it's not a difficult element to add

For HIM, not others, that's the point. He's not going to let Buu out if he wasn't going to fight him, and just watch the series. Do you think the scene where he's about to fight Vegeta is portrayed as "Yay, I'm going to fight!" or is it more likely that it's portraying Goku as determined to not have Vegeta kill any more civilians just to get a fight out of him.

there's even an implication that they may be able to change locations themselves or otherwise subdue Vegeta. Goku won't allow it. And that's just the dialogue; everything about the way the scene is presented -- music, angles -- portray it as a moment of flaw on the part of Goku and Vegeta. It's not heroism -- they're just hardened fighters willing to gamble on Kaioshin's estimations being wrong. That's part of the thrust of that portion of the arc.

And where is this implication that they could subdue Vegeta?

No, that absolutely is not true. Not everything is all on that one thing. What about Goku's character leads you to believe that he would go off to fight Vegeta and lie about his power? Goku likes a challenge and since you go out of your way to accept Goku is a dick for just letting Buu get resurrected so he can fight Vegeta, what has Goku gained? There was zero challenge. He held back and he shows concern that Buu is going to be resurrected, not "yay, someone strong!" who he doesn't get to fight. The logic doesn't track. You keep trying to fit it all in this nice neat little box, but you can't because Toriyama's story has a lot of contradictions because he doesn't plan it out. Goku leaves to fight Vegeta because he has no way of stopping him otherwise. If he just ignores him, Vegeta will interfere with whatever plans they have.

Knowing Gohan is the only one capable is different from throwing Cell a Senzu. What do you think the purpose of Piccolo's line is, and Goku's reaction to it? Ultimately Gohan succeeds regardless, but Piccolo points out that Gohan isn't excited or motivated by the same kinds of danger Goku is, and Goku takes it seriously as a moment of revelation; immediately afterward he volunteers to rush back into the fight.

It is different, but it has zero effect on the outcome, and bottom line, Gohan's power needed to be drawn out.

The purpose of the line isn't to show Piccolo has more insight, it's to increase the tension of the scene. Do you think Gohan honestly would think his father is abandoning him? And who cares if Gohan wants to fight or not. In that moment, it's not relevant. Goku doesn't immediately volunteer. He has a moment where he panics and makes a decision based on emotion. II don't know why you guys don't get it. It's completely and utterly irrelevant as to whether Gohan wants to fight. Gohan is the only one who can. Even Goku tells Gohan that if Gohan wants to be a scholar, he has to stop Cell first.

I never said he intended for someone else to clean up (with the exception of Boo, in which his interest very much lies in the capability of the next generation).
Say it with me class - retcon. That was NOT his intention. When the logic of his story doesn't track, Toriyama has to fabricate an explanation for why Goku does what he does, it doesn't make any sense. What about Goku's character leads you to think he would release Buu only to say "Screw you all, clean it up! Peace bitches, I'm out"

But he does let them go without being able to guarantee he'll be able to win a second round.
He doesn't lose a rematch.

Piccolo is an example of this

A bad example because he didn't lose to either King Piccolo or his son. Okay, he lost to Diamao once, but not the second time. Sure, he had a close call against Jr. but that was a decisive victory and Goku was absolutely sure he could win. Plus, the Dragon Balls have to be taken into consideration. Piccolo dies, and so does Kami. I'll give you Vegeta, but at least he doesn't naively let Vegeta live out of mercy. Regardless, he always intended to fight them HE DID. Not others. There is zero example of Goku intending others to clean up after him

And "not what happened" wasn't me being flippant. Sorry if it came off that way. It was me calling it as I saw it. You make that scene out to be like Goku is only mildly concerned about people dying, but he really wants to continue his pissing contest with Vegeta. No, Goku is absolutely upset and doesn't want any more destruction done just to goad him, and I get the feeling Goku is tired of Vegeta's crap, so the one on one fight is justified.

[Cipher]

but as that's classically been part of his motivation, it's not a difficult element to add

For HIM, not others, that's the point. He's not going to let Buu out if he wasn't going to fight him, and just watch the series. Do you think the scene where he's about to fight Vegeta is portrayed as "Yay, I'm going to fight!" or is it more likely that it's portraying Goku as determined to not have Vegeta kill any more civilians just to get a fight out of him.

It doesn't matter that he plans to fight Boo though. He has no idea how powerful he is and letting him out is dangerous, period.

I don't believe at all that it's "Yay, I'm going to fight!" He's quite angry and serious. But he's still choosing to fight one on one knowing it will revive Boo rather than seeking whatever alternative Kaioshin is suggesting. He does not mention the civilians in his decision to fight and apologies to Kaioshin before engaging. Kaioshin's dialogue paints the fight as something they both desire -- out of pride and anger if not joy, but it's definitely not pragmatic. Any other reading of the scene places Kaioshin and Gohan in the wrong, and that's just not the way it's presented, tonally or through dialogue. It's a "Goku makes a dangerous decision" moment right along the lines of allowing Freeza to achieve full power or asking Kuririn to let Vegeta go (both of which also feature voices of reason to bounce off of in the form of Kaio and Kuririn, respectively).

And where is this implication that they could subdue Vegeta?

Kaioshin asks him not to fight -- specifically "here," which carries the weird implication that they may be able to get away from Babidi's siphoning magic -- but either way both Kaioshin and Gohan implore them not to battle.

No, that absolutely is not true. Not everything is all on that one thing. What about Goku's character leads you to believe that he would go off to fight Vegeta and lie about his power? Goku likes a challenge and since you go out of your way to accept Goku is a dick for just letting Buu get resurrected so he can fight Vegeta, what has Goku gained?

For all his anger in that scene, Goku understands where Vegeta is coming from and respects him as a rival. There are plenty of instances of him not going all out in similar rivalrous circumstances. As far as he knows, too, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is his best hope at that point for an interesting match, and Super Saiyan 3 diminishes his time on Earth.

No matter how you slice it, though, he's risking something really dangerous for the sake of a sportsmanlike fight.

It is different, but it has zero effect on the outcome, and bottom line, Gohan's power needed to be drawn out.

We're not talking about outcome, though. We're talking about Goku's personality.

The purpose of the line isn't to show Piccolo has more insight, it's to increase the tension of the scene.

That tension comes through character moments and informs our understanding of character. Goku reacts with shock. Piccolo has provided him with new perspective. To ignore what that says about the characters is to ignore the entire scene. At the end of the day Gohan gets the job done, and perhaps he's the only one who can, but what we learn about Goku is that his motivations are so wildly different than Gohan's he didn't account for his son's personality (even if, again, it works out in the end, though at the expense of Goku so he isn't let off scot-free).

It's completely and utterly irrelevant as to whether Gohan wants to fight. Gohan is the only one who can. Even Goku tells Gohan that if Gohan wants to be a scholar, he has to stop Cell first.

I'm ... not sure where you're getting that from. I agree that Gohan is the only one to do the job. That does not change what we learn of Goku's character form his willingness to throw Cell a Senzu.

Say it with me class - retcon. That was NOT his intention. When the logic of his story doesn't track, Toriyama has to fabricate an explanation for why Goku does what he does, it doesn't make any sense. What about Goku's character leads you to think he would release Buu only to say "Screw you all, clean it up! Peace bitches, I'm out"

Don't be condescending. You can't take only certain pieces of a fiction, especially one with a single author, into consideration when analyzing its whole. This isn't a small information slip-up between chapters; it's character portraiture.

Even if we do get meta and examine (guess at) the rationale for those lines and the state of Dragon Ball as a serialized piece, there are many ways to justify Goku's wanting to use Super Saiyan 3 in the end without painting his character in a reckless light.

"Screw you bitches, I'm out!" is reductive, but you know that. I have no trouble believing that he genuinely wants the next generation to be able to protect themselves. But I also have some trouble believing that wanting to see what they're capable of isn't part of the motivation as well.

Either way, the series tells us he could have defeated Boo, and chose not to -- a slightly reckless decision from any angle. Toriyama is fine painting Goku as a slightly reckless character.

He doesn't lose a rematch.

But he could.

One of the joys of Dragon Ball is everything working out for this purely motivated (in terms of focusing almost solely on fighting) character; the universe rewards that purity. But along the way the series shows multiple examples of the extremely dangerous decision-making that come with it.

It's this Toriyama quote (1996):

There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

I am not at all saying Goku never fights solely for others, as there are moments of him doing just that. I'm just saying there are also plenty of moments involving him making wildly reckless decisions for the sake of his own enjoyment, and that even some of fights that begin altruistically are at some point overtaken by that drive.

[Saiga]

I don't want the torch getting passed because I like Gokû and find him entertaining.

If I had to guess, maybe people want someone to replace him because they don't like Gokû, or don't relate to him well, so they want to replace him with someone more to their tastes? Maybe they want someone who has traits they personally find cool, or someone they can self insert or relate to better? Or maybe they think Gokû won't get the character development they want for him, so they'd rather boot him and replace him with someone who would get the development they want to see?
I don't know the answer, but that's my theory.

As someone who wants to see Goku (and Vegeta) retired, maybe I can provide another viewpoint from it.

It's not due to disliking Goku, both Goku and Vegeta are among my favourites, and neither is it about having a more relateable hero. For me it's more about the themes of the story than it is about the characters, and the manga did originally bring up the theme of passing the torch way back with Roshi. Earlier in the manga Roshi both learned and imparted the lesson of stepping back and letting the new generation take over. This happened early enough in the series that I think it's reasonable to expect to see it happen to Goku later, and the subject is indeed brought up again by Goku himself who attempts to do the same thing. I would have liked to see that succeed, and have Goku pass on the torch to Gohan, because that would have really reinforced the earlier message.

I also think it's the best things for Goku's character, as a flawed hero. Looking at the Android and Boo arcs, those happened mostly as a result of Goku and Vegeta's selfish actions. To me the best way to follow that characterization would be for them to step back after realizing the problems their involvement creates in favour of more responsible defenders. Which is where the half-Saiyans come in. It's true they lack Goku and Vegeta's genuine love for battle but this is not a negative trait, or is it necessary to be a lead character. The fact that they don't love battle also means they're not inclined to prolong things or let villains go to satisfy their battle lusts as Goku and Vegeta have. It's be a nice contrast to the way the pure Saiyans operate, especially if it were handled the way Future Trunks' approach is. A large part of Future Trunks' appeal is his no-nonsense approach, killing Freeza before he can power up and trying to stop Cell from transforming. The fact that Gohan doesn't like fighting means it would be easy to write him as a character who seeks to end conflicts swiftly and efficiently rather than using them as an opportunity to test himself.

And that doesn't mean Gohan has to be a reluctant or angsty hero, because he doesn't really fit that mold. He's shown enjoying training with Goten, wanting to help people, and having a lot of fun as the Great Saiyaman. I think he'd be able to take pleasure from seeing how he has helped people through his actions, as long as he learned to be responsible for defending Earth. Which is also easy to arrange in the story.

I know Toriyama wrote by the seat of his pants and many themes you could potentially interpret in the story are unlikely to have been intended by him, but it's kind of funny how much the idea of Gohan or Trunks work as successors to Goku and Vegeta. Their outlook and beliefs are almost the exact opposite of the pure Saiyans and yet they'd still be a good fit for leading characters. Their Earthling sides give them a personality that is much closer to an Earthlings', giving them a mentality more suitable for protecting Earth.

And I think with things the way they are now, it's hard to avoid the portrayal of Goku as a "righteous hero" as much as Toriyama disagrees with that view. That's because as long as Goku's methods are the ones that ultimately save the day, he's always going to be in the right to a certain degree. The best way to fully acknowledge Goku's "poison" (as Toriyama put it) would be to show where his own methodology falls short and where a more traditional approach succeeds. If he were to be succeeded by a more righteous hero that would really highlight how Goku is not that way himself. It would show that Goku is a truly flawed hero, who has had great success in his career, but is far from perfect.

I really liked his role mentoring Gohan in the Android arc, as well as what he was doing in the early Boo arc before he re-entered the spotlight. I think that's a really fresh position for him and it prevents him from being stagnant. It also means that stepping down as the main character doesn't have to mean his role is minimized, the Boo arc gives him a fair amount of focus even when he's not part of the action.