Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

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FoolsGil
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:27 pm

In General, Baba not having Devilman snipe villains from a distance with the Devilmite Beam, as well as heroes not taking time to learn new attacks or improve old ones besides Goku and Vegeta

In the Saiyan Saga, all the heroes. No careful planning, no guerrilla tactics, they came to the battlefield as martial artists, not warriors. Future Sagas they acted differently

Namek Saga: I suppose Vegeta and Piccolo not killing Freeza before he transformed to his second, and third form, respectively

Garlic Jr Saga: Krillin not putting a ring on Maron's finger. :P

Android Saga: Bulma for choosing to listen to Goku and Vegeta about not finding out where Gero is. And Vegeta allowing Cell to achieve perfection.

Buu Saga: Christ, the better question is who in this saga was at their smartest.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:34 pm

Buu Saga: Christ, the better question is who in this saga was at their smartest.
Prob Gohan. He's the only one who fought Buu seriously.

Vegeta > Knocked Goku out, and came up with a "genius" plan against Kid Buu.

Goku > Didn't finish off Fat Buu as SSJ3.

Gotenks > Fucked around.

Vegito > Fucked around to initiate a master plan, only to fuck that up too.

At the very least, Gohan tried. He also actually showed real concern during his ritual, and previously committed to his Z-sword training.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:51 pm

Vegito > Fucked around to initiate a master plan, only to fuck that up too.
They didn't screw it up. Buu destroyed the world, not their fault. They were successful in freeing Piccolo and their children.
Goku > Didn't finish off Fat Buu as SSJ3.
At the point of Toriyama's writing, Goku couldn't. It wasn't until later that he retconned and said Goku could.
No careful planning, no guerrilla tactics, they came to the battlefield as martial artists, not warriors. Future Sagas they acted differently
Not really, and the guerrilla tactics wouldn't have worked.
Saiyan racism, much?
Please be kidding.
You are making Vegeta and Nappa sound like mindless killing machines like Kid Buu, who is one of the only villains in the series that couldn't be reasoned with.
They are on Earth to 1 - get the DBs by any means necessary, and 2 - They want to kill everyone in order to sell the planet. So no, they can't be reasoned with, they aren't using reason, they are using force.
it is in your best interest to attempt a solution that doesn't involve fighting first if you have leverage.
One, they know it won't work, they have no leverage, there's nothing to gain. They have the DB's, but no way to guaranteeing that they won't lose their life once the Saiyans get what they want. Force is the only thing that will work against them. You have an incredibly naïve view of diplomacy. It only works when the two parties have similar goals. And lastly, Vegeta remembers the DBs on Namek. If Piccolo dies, they go to the source. The Z Team has zero leverage.
They aren't specifically there for revenge or to conquer earth. They just really wanted immortality to beat Freeza.
They do want to destroy everyone and make a healthy profit.
Krillin and Gohan found a way to make a temporary alliance with Vegeta not a few months later, and outsmart him out of his wish at the last minute -- *that* is smart.
Completely different circumstances. It was a temporary way to keep themselves from dying. Who is the Vegeta in this temporary alliance that you imagine? It's not Vegeta, he wouldn't work together with the Z Team at this point. He's the one with the power.
That is where the stupidity lies.
This is so wrong. Not knowing how things would/could turn out doesn't make them stupid. They can't see the future and you are basing your views on information that the Z Team didn't have. How the hell could they know Vegeta would turn "good"? And Vegeta only adapted on Earth when he wasn't the strongest and there was someone there to stop him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:00 pm

ABED wrote: They didn't screw it up. Buu destroyed the world, not their fault. They were successful in freeing Piccolo and their children.
They went in there to save them, but Goku chose to have them killed in favor of saving Dende and Mr. Satan. Vegito could have just killed Buu when he had the chance, and later revive everyone.
At the point of Toriyama's writing, Goku couldn't. It wasn't until later that he retconned and said Goku could..
Well yeah... but I'm talking specifically in-universe. Goku made a stupid decision.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:03 pm

They went in there to save them, but Goku chose to have them killed in favor of saving Dende and Mr. Satan.
That's not what happened. He didn't say "screw my friends and family", he picked the people closest because he didn't have enough time.
Well yeah... but I'm talking specifically in-universe. Goku made a stupid decision.
That factors in. I don't see them as completely separate. If you make a contradictory writing choice, it's the writer who's stupid, not the character.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:05 pm

ABED wrote:This is so wrong. Not knowing how things would/could turn out doesn't make them stupid. They can't see the future and you are basing your views on information that the Z Team didn't have. How the hell could they know Vegeta would turn "good"? And Vegeta only adapted on Earth when he wasn't the strongest and there was someone there to stop him.
Vegeta also remains a bastard for a lllloooooonngggggg time after coming to Earth, it really isn't until the final stages of the Buu arc that you can pretty clearly see him becoming a proper ally. At that point he's not fighting to prove his superiority or stroke his ego but to save his family and the planet.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:07 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:This is so wrong. Not knowing how things would/could turn out doesn't make them stupid. They can't see the future and you are basing your views on information that the Z Team didn't have. How the hell could they know Vegeta would turn "good"? And Vegeta only adapted on Earth when he wasn't the strongest and there was someone there to stop him.
Vegeta also remains a bastard for a lllloooooonngggggg time after coming to Earth, it really isn't until the final stages of the Buu arc that you can pretty clearly see him becoming a proper ally. At that point he's not fighting to prove his superiority or stroke his ego but to save his family and the planet.
Exactly, up to that point, he's a dangerous dog with a muzzle, at best.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:21 pm

That's not what happened. He didn't say "screw my friends and family", he picked the people closest because he didn't have enough time.
Vegito's plan was still unnecessary, given that they had to use the dragon balls anyways. Even the Kaioshin was facepalming watching him goof around.
That factors in. I don't see them as completely separate. If you make a contradictory writing choice, it's the writer who's stupid, not the character.
Well, I think the writer made A LOT of stupid choices during the Buu saga, but at the end of the day, what happened in-universe happened. In-universe, Goku reveals he could have beaten Fat Buu if he used his full SSJ3 power.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:31 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Not blowing up Gero's lab because he hadn't done anything wrong yet.
The worst part was that pretty much everyone was putting the entire world in danger just because they wanted to fight the Androids.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:33 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Not blowing up Gero's lab because he hadn't done anything wrong yet.
The worst part was that pretty much everyone was putting the entire world in danger just because they wanted to fight the Androids.
This is doubly awful for guys like Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo who just witnessed an entire species get annihilated because of a mad man. You'd think with that in mind those three, Piccolo especially given the fact he has Nail in him would be pretty much against wanting that to happen to Earth by any means necessary.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:39 pm

Well, I think the writer made A LOT of stupid choices during the Buu saga, but at the end of the day, what happened in-universe happened. In-universe, Goku reveals he could have beaten Fat Buu if he used his full SSJ3 power.
After saying he couldn't.
Even the Kaioshin was facepalming watching him goof around.
It was intentional to get Buu to try to absorb him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:42 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:This is doubly awful for guys like Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo who just witnessed an entire species get annihilated because of a mad man. You'd think with that in mind those three, Piccolo especially given the fact he has Nail in him would be pretty much against wanting that to happen to Earth by any means necessary.
I disagree. Gohan was still a kid and would happily follow his dad. Krillin and Piccolo, who more or less owe Goku their lives, are willing to go along with it because of their faith in Goku. Krillin is actually pretty genre savvy in this scene, as he understands that without a common threat which brought him and Goku's other allies together, it's totally possible Vegeta could turn on them all.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:44 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:This is doubly awful for guys like Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo who just witnessed an entire species get annihilated because of a mad man. You'd think with that in mind those three, Piccolo especially given the fact he has Nail in him would be pretty much against wanting that to happen to Earth by any means necessary.
I disagree. Gohan was still a kid and would happily follow his dad. Krillin and Piccolo, who more or less owe Goku their lives, are willing to go along with it because of their faith in Goku. Krillin is actually pretty genre savvy in this scene, as he understands that without a common threat which brought him and Goku's other allies together, it's totally possible Vegeta could turn on them all.
While I agree in essence, Vegeta isn't a threat at this point. Goku is FAR stronger.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:48 pm

ABED wrote:While I agree in essence, Vegeta isn't a threat at this point. Goku is FAR stronger.
True, although Vegeta is said to become just as strong as Goku when he attains SSJ. And Vegeta isn't beyond creating trouble for Goku as we see in Buu saga.

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:31 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:This is doubly awful for guys like Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo who just witnessed an entire species get annihilated because of a mad man. You'd think with that in mind those three, Piccolo especially given the fact he has Nail in him would be pretty much against wanting that to happen to Earth by any means necessary.
I disagree. Gohan was still a kid and would happily follow his dad. Krillin and Piccolo, who more or less owe Goku their lives, are willing to go along with it because of their faith in Goku. Krillin is actually pretty genre savvy in this scene, as he understands that without a common threat which brought him and Goku's other allies together, it's totally possible Vegeta could turn on them all.
Gohan also saw an entire people get more or less annihiliated along with Krillin and Piccolo, even if Goku there he shouldn't automatically forget the consequences of what a mad man with a lot of power can have. Especially in a situation where a guy from the future flat out tells them "YOU ALL F*CKING DIE!" Goku included. Plus Vegeta can't do anything to Goku at this point even if he wanted to.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: Which Saga Had Characters At Their Stupidest?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:13 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan also saw an entire people get more or less annihiliated along with Krillin and Piccolo, even if Goku there he shouldn't automatically forget the consequences of what a mad man with a lot of power can have. Especially in a situation where a guy from the future flat out tells them "YOU ALL F*CKING DIE!" Goku included. Plus Vegeta can't do anything to Goku at this point even if he wanted to.
He also saw his dad saving him and every one of his friends, no matter how bad things got. If your Dad can beat up instellar tyrants with reputations for being the Universe's strongest, you're going to believe he can protect you when trouble comes. Even Future Bulma understood this, which is why she sent Trunks back to keep Goku alive to begin with.

As for Vegeta, see my post above.

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