Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Well that's good, I thought they'd gone and created a huge problem for themselves and created unnecessary confusion. So he probably was still using 70% even if it doesn't look like that was said so we'll just go by what Toriyama said.

[singsing]

Well we have Beerus stronger than Goku, but we still don't know if Whis is stronger in this version. Hopefully it remains the case.

[LightBing]

Well we have Beerus stronger than Goku, but we still don't know if Whis is stronger in this version. Hopefully it remains the case.

He should be, they haven't said it yet but it would be a silly thing to change. They most likely holding it to create surprise to those that don't know it yet. Maybe Whis reveals it before he starts training Vegeta and Goku, with everyone falling on the floor surprised.

It's apparent to me that, the power levels of the movie are the same as in Super. Only that SSJ Goku didn't lose any power after SSJG expired.

[Saiga]

That seems unnecessarily confusing. Why not just not have Beerus say that originally?

[RandomGuy96]

Super Saiyan Satan....that's it....the universe is fucked. New tier list.

Spoiler:

Super Saiyan Satan










Whis (Probably)


Beerus


Godku





Vegeta








Super Saiyan Videl









Gotenks
Boo
Trunks
Goten
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu










Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Ms. Briefs











Unborn Fetus












Shit















Gohan

I laughed at this. More than I should have.

[Chiki]

Well we have Beerus stronger than Goku, but we still don't know if Whis is stronger in this version. Hopefully it remains the case.

He should be, they haven't said it yet but it would be a silly thing to change. They most likely holding it to create surprise to those that don't know it yet. Maybe Whis reveals it before he starts training Vegeta and Goku, with everyone falling on the floor surprised.

It's apparent to me that, the power levels of the movie are the same as in Super. Only that SSJ Goku didn't lose any power after SSJG expired.

No, Goku performed A LOT better against Beerus this time, even though Beerus used his full power. In BoG, Beerus only used 70%, confirmed by Whis. In Super, he used 100%, as stated by Beerus himself.

It seems like Goku might already be an 8 or a 9 compared to Beerus's 10.

EDIT: Nevermind, just saw the posts before this one. Apparently the full power thing was a lie too?

[Sora Saiyan]

That seems unnecessarily confusing. Why not just not have Beerus say that originally?

I believe Herms said that Beerus thought he could draw out all of Gokus power if Goku believed he was fighting 100% Beerus.

I can't believe Beerus was powerful enough to nullify a Universe destroying blast when he was likely using 70% of his power, he's pretty OP.

[MaGyunia]

Well we have Beerus stronger than Goku, but we still don't know if Whis is stronger in this version. Hopefully it remains the case.

All throughout the retelling of the BoG events within the Beerus arc in DBSuper we've seen them keeping most of the stuff exactly the same and intact, while making some adaptations and additions here and there, and one instance of the latter is the fact that this time Beerus and Whis just went away right after the battle was over, as opposed to the movies' version, in which they hang for a while and Whis even proposes to Goku that he could be the next Hakaishin after Beerus dies, and Beerus apologizes to Bulma, etc. The fact Beerus this time didn't mention Whis is, more than his attendant, his master and the actual strongest being there is in the Universe, which him being the second one, in DBSuper, as opposed to the movie, is not proof that they changed anything. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. We'll get to see Whis training both Goku and Vegeta pretty soon in the incoming episodes, and I'm sure that at some point it'll be stated by someone that Whis is actually stronger than Beerus and his previous martial arts teacher, making him the most powerful entity there is, at least in the 7th Universe.

It all has to do with the pacing DBSuper is following, which seemed off-balance in some points, whereas in the movies you had a perfectly thought and conceived stream of events carefully planned to fit within the time restraints of theatrical feature.

[Doctor.]

So it seems like the new tier list is something like Vados >/= Whis > Beerus > Champa > Golden Freeza > Goku > Vegeta.

Vados: 15,5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9
Golden Freeza: 8
SSB Goku: 7,5
SSB Vegeta: 7,2

[MaGyunia]

So it seems like the new tier list is something like Vados >/= Whis > Beerus > Champa > Golden Freeza > Goku > Vegeta.

Vados: 15,5
Whis: 15
Beerus: 10
Champa: 9
Golden Freeza: 8
SSB Goku: 7,5
SSB Vegeta: 7,2

I love making lists but I don't like to put it that way in terms of figures and numbers.

But yeah, a consensus has already been pretty much made, with a few exceptions here and there, but not regarding the top 5 or top 10 warriors.

I'll keep this one short, though, up to the top 25, and I'm not going to include the movies, of course, otherwise the likes of Gogeta and Janenba would be there:

1 - Vados/Whis
2 - Whis/Vados
3 - Beerus
4 - Champa
5 - Golden Freeza
6 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku
7 - Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta
8 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Goku
9 - Saiya-jin Beyond God Vegeta
10 - Super Saiya-jin God Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin Goku with power of all others at first attempt of the ritual
12 - Super Vegitto
13 - Base Vegitto
14 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta with rage boost after Beerus hit Bulma
15 - Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan dominant)
16 - Super Buu (SSJ3 Gotenks dominant)
17 - Ultimate Gohan (at his peak, it's still debatable whether he's actually permanently as strong as he was when he showed up to thrash Super Buu after the unlocking ritual by Rou Dai Kaioshin, at some points his power might have dropped considerably to the point of being lowered in the ranking significantly and being overcome by at least three or four warriors at different times)
18 - Super Buu (Piccolo dominant)
19 - Super Buu
20 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku
21 - Kid Buu
22 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks
23 - Evil Buu
24 - Fat Majin Buu
25 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku/Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta

A shame to keep the list so short. Cell, the Kaioshin, Dabura, teen Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, #17, #18, Piccolo, etc. get left out.

Seems interesting that ALL of the top 10, and even over that, are all characters and warriors presented and introduced to us in the most recent stuff (BoG, Fukkatsu no F and DBSuper), but that's only logical. If they were going to make new TV series and movies, and be serious about the plot and the fighting, power levels and serious menaces to Earth and the Universe with SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, Majin Buu and the others around, then they had to come up with even more powerful entities/antagonists (not really villains) and new stages and transformations for Goku and Vegeta to be able to keep up with them. That's the whole way DBZ worked from beginning to end: warriors keeping surpassing themselves and others until someone else displays a much greater level of power, and then that one gets overcome by a set of new warriors through new transformations, and then another, even bigger threat comes along and they need to overcome their limits yet again. The enormity of what happened throughout all of the arcs of DBZ is so great that by its last saga they were fighting one of the most powerful beings there ever was - Majin/Kid Buu -, so the next logical step would be to introduce some sort of deity whose power can't even be sensed and is in a "different dimension altogether", and, along with a few comic elements here and there, thus was Beerus created. In order to keep up with him and Whis, Goku - and Vegeta - needed to attain EVEN much stronger transformations than the insanely powerful ones before, which already had put them in the top 10 of most powerful warriors there ever were; now, Vados and Champa have a level of power comparable or even equal to the Beerus + Whis duo, and Goku and Vegeta got/will get to a stage where they can keep up with them by achieving something that goes even BEYOND Super Saiya-jin God (Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin). Freeza is a freakish event, a prodigy among a race of power abnormalities, all it took to get him from a Freeza arc level of power to a degree of strength beyond what we see in a number of warriors by the Majin Buu arc is four months of training, but we can easily accept that.

This particular, restricted group of warriors is likely to never, ever be surpassed again. Goku (and Vegeta) actually got to the point where they're on par with the strongest gods/warriors there ever were in the entire history of the universe(s), far above the likes of any form of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, the Kaioshin, Piccolo, Cell, Freeza, etc.

Taking all of this into account, the likes of Ultimate Gohan, Majin Buu, Piccolo, #18, Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 2 or 3, Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 are all but completely and absolutely outmatched, and rendered useless and obsolete fighting-wise. Not to mention the even weaker ones, those were brought to Fukkatsu no F just so that they could have their screen and fighting time, which I personally appreciate.

And again, Gohan has been completely and utterly replaced by Vegeta in terms of protagonism. We need to remember that he is or was supposed to be far beyond Vegeta as a Super Saiya-jin 2 during the Majin Buu arc in his Ultimate form, but in the recent stuff they've thrown our way Gohan is being depicted as an I'm-always-skipping-training nerd who most likely can't even tap into the full extent of the power he displayed during the Majin Buu arc anymore by the time of BoG, Fukkastu no F or DBSuper. Vegeta, as a pure Saiya-jin, has been very deliberately chosen to be the only one among the team to be able to keep up with Goku, Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza, by taking the necessary steps to achieve the exact same stages Goku has, in the exact sequence, thus, automatically making Ultimate Gohan look like nothing in comparison; and they even made his degree of (co-)protagonism be matched by his level of power. Nevermind Yamcha, Tenshinhan or Krillin, nevermind even #18 or Piccolo or the Kaioshin, even Ultimate Gohan and fat Majin Buu are now far, far below the league in which Beerus, Whis, Vados, Champa, Freeza, Goku and Vegeta play, to the point where any comparison is ludicrous. Make no mistake about it, Gohan will never cease to be an incredibly gifted and powerful warrior, but he'll never become relevant again in terms of power and protagonism, the way he was against Cell in the Cell Games or during the whole Majin Buu arc, and the sooner the Gohan hardcore fans accept this, the better for them.

[Bullza]

I figured Champa would be between Frieza and Beerus. In the end either Goku or Vegeta (more likely Goku) will surpass and defeat him at which point he'll be ready to have his rematch with Beerus.

[Doctor.]

I figured Champa would be between Freeza and Beerus. In the end either Goku or Vegeta (more likely Goku) will surpass and defeat him at which point he'll be ready to have his rematch with Beerus.

Yea, I figured that as well. But I thought that Vados would be between Beerus and Whis personally. Didn't expect her to be the strongest at all.

[dbzfan7]

In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.

Spoiler:

Super Special Awesome Tier
Super Saiyan Satan












Powerful Relevant Tier
Vados
Whis (Probably)



Beerus
Champa
Golden Freeza (Fresh)
Godku
Godgeta



Golden Freeza (Weary)
LOLRAGETA










Unintentionally Funny Tier
Super Saiyan Videl














Jobber Cannon Fodder Losers Tier
Gotenks
Boo
Trunks
Goten
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
















Regular Humans Tier
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Ms. Briefs









Untapped Will Never Amount To Anything Tier
Unborn Fetus



















Feces Tier
Shit and it's variations


































Garbage Jobber Fuck You Tier
Gohan

[MaGyunia]

I figured Champa would be between Freeza and Beerus. In the end either Goku or Vegeta (more likely Goku) will surpass and defeat him at which point he'll be ready to have his rematch with Beerus.

Yea, I figured that as well. But I thought that Vados would be between Beerus and Whis personally. Didn't expect her to be the strongest at all.

She could either be just as strong as Whis, slightly stronger than him, or even slightly weaker than him. Nevertheless, whatever the case actually is, she definitely seems to be above Beerus, which kind of pisses me off (well, even back when BoG came out I was a little pissed of when I learned that Whis is actually above Beerus, since he's earned his rightful place in my list of all-time favorite Dragonball characters).

We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other. It's also funny and interesting that both brothers (Vados and Whis, Beerus and Champa) don't appear to get along too well. However, even if Vados turns out to be above Whis, which I doubt (I'd go for Whis still being stronger, or, even more likely, they're just completely matched), her student and Hakaishin, Champa, is below Whis', Beerus. We could go by that logic and postulate a scenario in which the Beerus + Whis duo is stronger than the Vados + Champa duo, with the attendants being both above the two Hakaishins, as in: Whis/Vados, Vados/Whis, Beerus, Champa. Then we get to yet another stage which is to try to figure out just where Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku, Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin Vegeta fit it and compare to their power, but based on the fight we just witnessed in the recent DBSuper episodes between Beerus and SSJG Goku, I'd say they're pretty close to the two Hakaishin + attendant duos. And that's not counting the possibility of SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working together, which is actually a scenario mentioned by Whis himself in Fukkatsu no F. Maybe, in theory (because it will never happen) SSJGSSJ Goku and SSJGSSJ Vegeta working and fighting together would take down Beerus, and thus automatically Champa, but how close would they come to Whis, and Vados, by the way? Would the same possibility of beating them apply? We'll probably never know. Would be cool to get some final, decisive, conclusive official information on power levels regarding all these new warriors and transformations/stages.

[Doctor.]

In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.

Spoiler:

Super Special Awesome Tier
Super Saiyan Satan












Powerful Relevant Tier
Vados
Whis (Probably)



Beerus
Champa

Godku
Godgeta




Vegeta











Unintentionally Funny Tier
Super Saiyan Videl














Jobber Cannon Fodder Losers Tier
Gotenks
Boo
Trunks
Goten
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
















Regular Humans Tier
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Ms. Briefs









Untapped Will Never Amount To Anything Tier
Unborn Fetus



















Feces Tier
Shit and it's variations


































Garbage Jobber Fuck You Tier
Gohan

You forgot Freeza in space.

We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other.

Considering Vados actually trained Whis, I think it's heavily implied she's stronger.

[Lord Beerus]

In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.

Spoiler:

Super Special Awesome Tier
Super Saiyan Satan












Powerful Relevant Tier
Vados
Whis (Probably)



Beerus
Champa

Godku
Godgeta




Vegeta











Unintentionally Funny Tier
Super Saiyan Videl














Jobber Cannon Fodder Losers Tier
Gotenks
Boo
Trunks
Goten
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
















Regular Humans Tier
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Ms. Briefs









Untapped Will Never Amount To Anything Tier
Unborn Fetus



















Feces Tier
Shit and it's variations


































Garbage Jobber Fuck You Tier
Gohan

Where's Farmer With Shotgun?

[MaGyunia]

In light of the new characters, I'll be updating my tiers.

Spoiler:

Super Special Awesome Tier
Super Saiyan Satan












Powerful Relevant Tier
Vados
Whis (Probably)



Beerus
Champa

Godku
Godgeta




Vegeta











Unintentionally Funny Tier
Super Saiyan Videl














Jobber Cannon Fodder Losers Tier
Gotenks
Boo
Trunks
Goten
Piccolo
18
Krillin
Tenshinhan
Yamcha
Chaozu
















Regular Humans Tier
Bulma
Dr. Briefs
Ms. Briefs









Untapped Will Never Amount To Anything Tier
Unborn Fetus



















Feces Tier
Shit and it's variations


































Garbage Jobber Fuck You Tier
Gohan

You forgot Freeza in space.

We're not, and cannot be sure if Vados is stronger than Whis, she merely says she is, but Whis doesn't quite agree, and this is really all we have to base our estimates on, which isn't much; they could be just trash-talking each other.

Considering Vados actually trained Whis, I think it's heavily implied she's stronger.

Hmm, there's obviously no doubt that at one point she was stronger than Whis, but just because she trained him doesn't mean he hasn't gotten stronger than her. In fact, he even says she hasn't trained for quite a long while. Similarly, to much, much lower proportions, Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami, Kaiou-sama all train Goku and are stronger than him at one point and he surpasses all of them easily and quickly, to insane degrees, in fact. I know the example is far from being perfect and the same dynamics don't quite apply, but it's just to illustrate that just because you once trained a warrior it doesn't you're automatically forever stronger than them. We'll either have to wait for actual fights or official info, or we'll actually never know for sure just who is stronger.

I personally wouldn't mind too much if she was stronger than Whis, although I've grown fond of even the latter, as he's Beerus' faithful attendant. What I do mind is that not only Whis himself, but also Vados, are both stronger than Hakaishin Birusu. Now THAT pisses me off. The cat SHOULD be above anything and anyone, the strongest and most powerful entity there is and ever was, period. But that's just me.

[Bullza]

If Vados is stronger than Whis I think shed be a good contender for the real main villain in the Universe 6 arc. I think I said this somewhere before but perhaps they could build up Champa as being the villain only for there to be a betrayal by Vados who turns out to be using him the whole time and the puppeteer behind the whole thing.

It'd also just be different to have a female villain for a change too. The last female character who was worth anything power wise was #18.

On a side note it also doesn't surprise me that Vados is stronger than Whis. Her being weaker than Whis just because she's female seemed too predictable.

A female character being the strongest in the series in this kind of manga is not very common so its...different. If she's just another servant though then it seems wasted on the idea.

[dbzfan7]

You forgot Freeza in space.

I should add Freeza since he's relevant to Super era.

Where's Farmer With Shotgun?

This list is for the Super era, otherwise I'd have to include every character in the series. Farmer appeared in BOG, but not in Super.

[MaGyunia]

On a side note it also doesn't surprise me that Vados is stronger than Whis. Her being weaker than Whis just because she's female seemed too predictable.

Well, we could also argue by logic (which, in this case, like in many others, may not apply at all) that if Beerus, Whis' trainee, is stronger than Champa, Vados' trainee, then Whis should, or could be stronger than Vados.

Not saying it's one way or the other, I made my point on that regard in my previous post. She could be slightly stronger than Whis, slightly weaker than him, or absolutely on par with him. What seems to be definitely factual is that both of them are above Beerus.

On a side note, it never even crossed my mind that she MUST be weaker than Whis just because she's female. Honestly. That was never a factor in the equation.

If Vados is stronger than Whis I think shed be a good contender for the real main villain in the Universe 6 arc. I think I said this somewhere before but perhaps they could build up Champa as being the villain only for there to be a betrayal by Vados who turns out to be using him the whole time and the puppeteer behind the whole thing.

It'd also just be different to have a female villain for a change too. The last female character who was worth anything power wise was #18.

I think we shouldn't call them villains, at least not full-fledged villains. A villain is someone like the ones we had throughout the last stages of DB and the entirety of DBZ, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, #17, #18, Cell, Kid Buu, insane genocidal psychopathic megalomaniac sadist maniacs. I always defended the view that even someone like Beerus, who's a Hakaishin and destroys more planets than he's supposed to at his whims, most likely doesn't share the same concept of good and evil as all others do, and the same applies to Champa, Whis and Vados. They're certainly not going to go around killing off entire races to get immortality (Vegeta, Freeza), conquering and enslaving an entire planet (Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo), annihilating and absorbing in a horrific way millions of human beings to attain the ultimate power (Cell) or rampaging through the entire Universe destroying everything and everyone in sight, in an out-of-control manner.

That's exactly why the concept of Beerus' personality, along with that of Whis, and most likely, to a somewhat lesser degree, Champa and Vados, was a fantastic addition to the franchise, we'd never really seen anything like that before. Not a villain, at most an antagonist. The term "villain" carries with it quite a lot of evil intentions and wrongdoing, genocides, mania, psychopathy, megalomania, slaughter, assassination, etc.