What about Freeza's barrier vs SSJ Goku? Was Freeza producing with his barrier a chi 2x above that of Goku SSJ KMHMH or am I wrong? I guess not since it didn't cancel the attack.RandomGuy96 wrote:Sure, why not. He wouldn't need anything more than 600 million though. The wording of the statement seems to be that an intensity of defense twice that of the opponent's offense will completely negate any damage (hence "cancel out"), while below that line it would just blunt the damage to varying degrees.
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
You think Freeza (warming up vs Goku) is a bigger level than what he used to tool Vegeta?GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Here are some of my levels from Freeza Arc. Feel free to critique.
[spoiler]Kuririn: 250,000
Gohan: 300,000
Piccolo (Weighted): 270,000
Vegeta: 480,000
Freeza (1st form): 530,000
Freeza (2nd form): 1,060,000
Gohan (Enraged): 900,000
Freeza (Powered up): 1,300,000
Kuririn (Further power up): 500,000
Gohan (Zenkai): 900,000
Piccolo (Merged): 1,350,000
Freeza (Full Power): 1,600,000
Piccolo (Full Power): 1,687,500
Freeza (3rd form): 2,400,000
Gohan (Enraged): 1,800,000
Gohan's Masenko: 2,250,000
Freeza (Final Form): 3,600,000
Vegeta (Zenkai): 3,600,000
Freeza (Tooling Vegeta): 4,800,000
Vegeta's Garlic Gun: 5,400,000
Freeza (Kicking the blast): 6,000,000
Goku (Warming up): 6,000,000
Freeza (Handless): 8,000,000
Goku (Full Power): 7,500,000
50% Freeza: 180,000,000
Kaioken x10 Goku: 75,000,000
Kaioken x20 Goku: 150,000,000
Spirit Bomb: 225,000,000
SSJ Goku: 375,000,000
Full Power Freeza: 360,000,000 and falling[/spoiler]
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Yeah, nothing wrong with that. It's worthy noting that Freeza was easily kicked innthe face by Goku and had all of his death beams easily shrugged off by him, but then later we saw how they fought evenly, with Freeza having a slight edge, probably. So, it's possible that the level Freeza was using in his warm up vs Goku was higher than the one he used to kick Vegeta's ass. And then, he used his full initial level when he decided to fight Goku without his hands. To summarize, Freeza could have used 4 different levels before going to 50%:GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Well, why not? It's never implied he powered down after that.ahill1 wrote:You think Freeza (warming up vs Goku) is a bigger level than what he used to tool Vegeta?GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Here are some of my levels from Freeza Arc. Feel free to critique.
[spoiler]Kuririn: 250,000
Gohan: 300,000
Piccolo (Weighted): 270,000
Vegeta: 480,000
Freeza (1st form): 530,000
Freeza (2nd form): 1,060,000
Gohan (Enraged): 900,000
Freeza (Powered up): 1,300,000
Kuririn (Further power up): 500,000
Gohan (Zenkai): 900,000
Piccolo (Merged): 1,350,000
Freeza (Full Power): 1,600,000
Piccolo (Full Power): 1,687,500
Freeza (3rd form): 2,400,000
Gohan (Enraged): 1,800,000
Gohan's Masenko: 2,250,000
Freeza (Final Form): 3,600,000
Vegeta (Zenkai): 3,600,000
Freeza (Tooling Vegeta): 4,800,000
Vegeta's Garlic Gun: 5,400,000
Freeza (Kicking the blast): 6,000,000
Goku (Warming up): 6,000,000
Freeza (Handless): 8,000,000
Goku (Full Power): 7,500,000
50% Freeza: 180,000,000
Kaioken x10 Goku: 75,000,000
Kaioken x20 Goku: 150,000,000
Spirit Bomb: 225,000,000
SSJ Goku: 375,000,000
Full Power Freeza: 360,000,000 and falling[/spoiler]
1 --> his initial level, the one in which he was dodging everyone with extreme ease, and the one to which Vegeta thought he had some chance against;
2 --> the level he used to kick Vegeta's ass. He also used this level in his initial scuffle against Goku, but got the worse into it;
3 --> then, seeing Goku is better than he thought, he upped it even more still, to his "warm up" level. In this level he could fight evenly against base "warm up" Goku, even better, he had a slight advantage;
4 --> he decided, then, to stop warming up and fight for real, which happened to still not be his true power. He used this level to fight full power base Goku, and had a big enough advantage to keep up a fight without using his hands.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Piccolo from Freeza saga vs Piccolo from Trunks sagaKaboom wrote:but in an era of peace with no pressing crisis he's not going to make massive, amazing gains.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Where'd you guys have Vegeta (vs 1st form Freeza), power level wise?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Context: Great Elder talking about the son of Katatz
Great Elder: He split in two after evil entered into him... how foolish, he diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth.
There're many people that take that to mean Kami and Piccolo Daimao each got 50% of the original Namekian's power, right? But wouldn't that make young Kami and Piccolo Daimao exceptionally powerful? I mean, when Kuririn came at his house the Great Elder wondered if the son of Katatz's slayer was a Super Saiyajin and stated that he might not have had to die if he came back together as one... wouldn't that make the original Super Namekian hella strong?
Great Elder: He split in two after evil entered into him... how foolish, he diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth.
There're many people that take that to mean Kami and Piccolo Daimao each got 50% of the original Namekian's power, right? But wouldn't that make young Kami and Piccolo Daimao exceptionally powerful? I mean, when Kuririn came at his house the Great Elder wondered if the son of Katatz's slayer was a Super Saiyajin and stated that he might not have had to die if he came back together as one... wouldn't that make the original Super Namekian hella strong?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Battle power list following Freeza > base Saiyans.
Multipliers:
SSJ : 50x
SSJG2 : 75x
FPSSJ : 75x
SSJ2 : 150x [2x FPSSJ]
SSJ3 : 600x
--> I like to keep the SSJ ~ SSJG2 power up as ~70%, because I see Vegeta's power up into grade 2 rather similar to Freeza's power up from 70% to 100%... I am operating under the belief that "Freeza 70% to 100%", "Vegeta SSJ to SSJG2" and "Cell suppressed to full power" are all similar power ups due to the similarity in the physical structure change... they are all "Grade 2-esque" power ups;
--> I'm also operating under the belief that the SSJ multiplier is increased [to Grade 2's level] when the Saiyan masters it. It's still simply a SSJ, sure, but I believe that when made as a natural form, the Saiyan can access the Grade 2's multiplier without suffering from body's strain, unlike Vegeta with SSJG2, who could access such power but have to transform to do so. Vegeta and Trunks were just forcing power into his SSJ without allowing the SSJ to acclimate to that power, whereas Goku and Gohan conditioned their SSJs to hold that much chi, which would manifest itself without physical strains.
The multiplier of a mastered SSJ being on par with Grade 2's also help to explain why Vegeta and Trunks didn't use them against the Cell Juniors when it was stated they grant a considerable power and speed boost, as well as giving Vegeta the edge against an opponent [Semi Cell] who was stronger than his SSJ form.
Goku vs Freeza
Goku Super Saiyajin : 150,000,000
Freeza : 140,000,000
[I prefer to have 100% Freeza at 140,000,000 since I don't think the fight was one-sided to the point of having a 1.25x gap. Besides, it does help to keep Boo saga base Goku farther from Freeza]
Future Trunks' arrival
Piccolo : 2,800,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000
King Cold : 80,000,000
Mecha Freeza [suppressed] : 80,000,000
~ full power : 160,000,000
Future Trunks : 4,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 200,000,000
Son Goku : 4,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 220,000,000
3 years after
Yamcha : 1,800,000
Tenshinhan : 2,400,000
Kuririn : 3,600,000
Son Gohan : 4,500,000
Piccolo [suporessed] : 5,200,000
Android #19 : 170,000,000
~ Post absorptions : 212,500,000
Android #20 : 190,000,000
~ Post absorptions : 228,000,000
Piccolo [full power] : 260,000,000
Future Trunks : 6,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 300,000,000
Son Goku : 6,600,000
~ Super Saiyan : 330,000,000
Vegeta : 6,800,000
~ Super Saiyan : 340,000,000
Imperfect Cell : 360,000,000
Piccolo w/kami [weighted] : 450,000,000
Android #18 : 450,000,000
Android #17 : 500,000,000
Piccolo [without weights] : 500,000,000
Imperfect Cell [post humans absorptions] : 700,000,000
Android #16 : 700,000,000
Semi Perfect Cell [initial] : 1,200,000,000
~ Full power : 1,400,000,000
Vegeta [post RoSaT] : 24,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 : 1,800,000,000
Future Trunks [post RoSaT] : 22,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,120,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 : 1,700,000,000
Perfect Cell [initial chi output] : 1,650,000,000
~ vs Vegeta and Trunks : 2,700,000,000
Future Trunks Super Saiyan Grade 3 : 3,200,000,000
---> speed level : 800,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyan about half [post RoSaT] : 2,700,000,000
Cell Games
Android #16 : 700,000,000
Piccolo : 2,800,000,000 [I would like to make him even stronger to justify his good performance, but he's limited by Kaioshin, who is way stronger than him and yet considerably weaker than SSJ Gohan]
Future Trunks : 42,666,666 (nice number, I know... but that's what I get with a 75x FPSSJ multiplier
)
~ Super Saiyan : 3,200,000,000
Vegeta : 44,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 3,300,000,000
Cell Juniors [each] : 3,500,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyajin [about 50%] : 2,700,000,000
~ Full power : 5,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [warm up] : 2,700,000,000
--> putting a little more effort : 3,000,000,000
----> powered up, vs Goku : 5,500,000,000
Son Gohan Super Saiyan : 6,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [full power] : 8,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [post Zenkai] : 11,500,000,000
Son Gohan Super Saiyan 2 : 12,500,000,000 [I like to give him a slight boost on top of his SSJ2, which better helps to fit the Boo saga gaps... maybe you could even say it's the boost when he slightly increased his power by looking at his friends being beaten up by the Cell Juniors]
Boo saga
Kibito : 60,000,000
Yakon : 110,000,000
Android #18 : 450,000,000
Piccolo : 3,000,000,000
East Kaioshin : 4,000,000,000
Son Goten : 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 4,500,000,000
Chibi Trunks : 62,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 4,650,000,000
Son Gohan : 66,666,667
~ Super Saiyan : 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 10,000,000,000
Dabura : 5,500,000,000 [since I think Gohan was a SSJ1, Dabura being at the Cell's [vs Goku] level seems best fitting]
Vegeta : 80,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 12,000,000,000
---> Majin : 14,000,000,000
Son Goku : 93,333,333
~ Super Saiyan : 7,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 14,000,000,000
Boo is released
Fat Boo [initial] : 11,000,000,000
~ Enraged, vs Dabura : 15,500,000,000
~ Even further enraged, vs Vegeta : 17,000,000,000
~ Huge explosion : 30,000,000,000
~ Full power, vs SSJ3 Goku : 48,000,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyan 3 : 56,000,000,000
Gotenks Super Saiyan [pre RoSaT] : 65,000,000,000
Post RoSaT
Gotenks Super Saiayjin : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 200,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 800,000,000,000
Good Boo : 30,000,000,000
Grey Boo : 18,000,000,000
Super Boo : 800,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan : 1,200,000,000,000
Bootenks : 1,600,000,000,000 [the absorptions work by addition, imo]
Boohan : 2,000,000,000,000
Vegetto Super Saiyan : 4,000,000,000,000
Multipliers:
SSJ : 50x
SSJG2 : 75x
FPSSJ : 75x
SSJ2 : 150x [2x FPSSJ]
SSJ3 : 600x
--> I like to keep the SSJ ~ SSJG2 power up as ~70%, because I see Vegeta's power up into grade 2 rather similar to Freeza's power up from 70% to 100%... I am operating under the belief that "Freeza 70% to 100%", "Vegeta SSJ to SSJG2" and "Cell suppressed to full power" are all similar power ups due to the similarity in the physical structure change... they are all "Grade 2-esque" power ups;
--> I'm also operating under the belief that the SSJ multiplier is increased [to Grade 2's level] when the Saiyan masters it. It's still simply a SSJ, sure, but I believe that when made as a natural form, the Saiyan can access the Grade 2's multiplier without suffering from body's strain, unlike Vegeta with SSJG2, who could access such power but have to transform to do so. Vegeta and Trunks were just forcing power into his SSJ without allowing the SSJ to acclimate to that power, whereas Goku and Gohan conditioned their SSJs to hold that much chi, which would manifest itself without physical strains.
The multiplier of a mastered SSJ being on par with Grade 2's also help to explain why Vegeta and Trunks didn't use them against the Cell Juniors when it was stated they grant a considerable power and speed boost, as well as giving Vegeta the edge against an opponent [Semi Cell] who was stronger than his SSJ form.
Goku vs Freeza
Goku Super Saiyajin : 150,000,000
Freeza : 140,000,000
[I prefer to have 100% Freeza at 140,000,000 since I don't think the fight was one-sided to the point of having a 1.25x gap. Besides, it does help to keep Boo saga base Goku farther from Freeza]
Future Trunks' arrival
Piccolo : 2,800,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000
King Cold : 80,000,000
Mecha Freeza [suppressed] : 80,000,000
~ full power : 160,000,000
Future Trunks : 4,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 200,000,000
Son Goku : 4,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 220,000,000
3 years after
Yamcha : 1,800,000
Tenshinhan : 2,400,000
Kuririn : 3,600,000
Son Gohan : 4,500,000
Piccolo [suporessed] : 5,200,000
Android #19 : 170,000,000
~ Post absorptions : 212,500,000
Android #20 : 190,000,000
~ Post absorptions : 228,000,000
Piccolo [full power] : 260,000,000
Future Trunks : 6,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 300,000,000
Son Goku : 6,600,000
~ Super Saiyan : 330,000,000
Vegeta : 6,800,000
~ Super Saiyan : 340,000,000
Imperfect Cell : 360,000,000
Piccolo w/kami [weighted] : 450,000,000
Android #18 : 450,000,000
Android #17 : 500,000,000
Piccolo [without weights] : 500,000,000
Imperfect Cell [post humans absorptions] : 700,000,000
Android #16 : 700,000,000
Semi Perfect Cell [initial] : 1,200,000,000
~ Full power : 1,400,000,000
Vegeta [post RoSaT] : 24,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 : 1,800,000,000
Future Trunks [post RoSaT] : 22,400,000
~ Super Saiyan : 1,120,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 : 1,700,000,000
Perfect Cell [initial chi output] : 1,650,000,000
~ vs Vegeta and Trunks : 2,700,000,000
Future Trunks Super Saiyan Grade 3 : 3,200,000,000
---> speed level : 800,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyan about half [post RoSaT] : 2,700,000,000
Cell Games
Android #16 : 700,000,000
Piccolo : 2,800,000,000 [I would like to make him even stronger to justify his good performance, but he's limited by Kaioshin, who is way stronger than him and yet considerably weaker than SSJ Gohan]
Future Trunks : 42,666,666 (nice number, I know... but that's what I get with a 75x FPSSJ multiplier
)~ Super Saiyan : 3,200,000,000
Vegeta : 44,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 3,300,000,000
Cell Juniors [each] : 3,500,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyajin [about 50%] : 2,700,000,000
~ Full power : 5,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [warm up] : 2,700,000,000
--> putting a little more effort : 3,000,000,000
----> powered up, vs Goku : 5,500,000,000
Son Gohan Super Saiyan : 6,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [full power] : 8,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [post Zenkai] : 11,500,000,000
Son Gohan Super Saiyan 2 : 12,500,000,000 [I like to give him a slight boost on top of his SSJ2, which better helps to fit the Boo saga gaps... maybe you could even say it's the boost when he slightly increased his power by looking at his friends being beaten up by the Cell Juniors]
Boo saga
Kibito : 60,000,000
Yakon : 110,000,000
Android #18 : 450,000,000
Piccolo : 3,000,000,000
East Kaioshin : 4,000,000,000
Son Goten : 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 4,500,000,000
Chibi Trunks : 62,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 4,650,000,000
Son Gohan : 66,666,667
~ Super Saiyan : 5,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 10,000,000,000
Dabura : 5,500,000,000 [since I think Gohan was a SSJ1, Dabura being at the Cell's [vs Goku] level seems best fitting]
Vegeta : 80,000,000
~ Super Saiyan : 6,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 12,000,000,000
---> Majin : 14,000,000,000
Son Goku : 93,333,333
~ Super Saiyan : 7,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 14,000,000,000
Boo is released
Fat Boo [initial] : 11,000,000,000
~ Enraged, vs Dabura : 15,500,000,000
~ Even further enraged, vs Vegeta : 17,000,000,000
~ Huge explosion : 30,000,000,000
~ Full power, vs SSJ3 Goku : 48,000,000,000
Son Goku Super Saiyan 3 : 56,000,000,000
Gotenks Super Saiyan [pre RoSaT] : 65,000,000,000
Post RoSaT
Gotenks Super Saiayjin : 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 : 200,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 : 800,000,000,000
Good Boo : 30,000,000,000
Grey Boo : 18,000,000,000
Super Boo : 800,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan : 1,200,000,000,000
Bootenks : 1,600,000,000,000 [the absorptions work by addition, imo]
Boohan : 2,000,000,000,000
Vegetto Super Saiyan : 4,000,000,000,000
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Well, there're some statements made by the Z-senshi that place King Cold and suppressed Mecha Freeza on a more or less equal footing, the latter which was said to be way weaker than his 100% in Namek, by Gohan. Kuririn and Tenshinhan describes both chis as absurdly large, without placing one above the other, which I think would be noticed there was a considerable difference between them. They also showed about the same speed-reactions when dodging Super Saiyajin Trunks' chi blast, both of them with their auras up, which adds to placing suppressed Mecha Freeza and King Cold even with each other.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Isn't Cold too far from Cyborg Freeza? He was supposed to be backing up Freeza against Goku.
I don't think you have to be pretty close to be of help on a team battle... Kuririn and Gohan would also supposedly add on defeating Freeza, whom Vegeta knew could transform. Even Jheese helped in completely turning the battle into Ginyu's favor when launching a chi blast at Goku, although you could argue Goku wasn't expecting Jheese's interference in the battle. But all in all, I don't think you need to be quite there to play a big role in a battle, even more when Mecha Freeza is apparently a tiny bit stronger than what he expects from SSJ Goku.
Fair enough, although Piccolo still wondered whether they were as strong as Trunks advised them, which tells me he was expecting a little more from them. Whilst to even warrant such doubt should place them above Trunks from three years ago, I agree, I think being above to a level where he could comfortably beat Trunks (I have Mecha Saga Trunks at 87% of #20, which is bigger than the gap Vegeta had over Zarbon, for instance) would already warrant a question.20 is too close to Trunks. Piccolo thought he was one of the Androids who stomped Trunks.
I think all of them at the Cell Games already knew -- or at least suspected -- that what Goku showed at Karin wasn't his full power. Piccolo knew he was no match for Cell, which he couldn't possibly know if he still thought Goku's 50% was his FP [unless one's to assume Piccolo was admitting uselesness to a power below Cell Games Vegeta, which seems unlikely given his performance against the Cell Juniors...] and Trunks realized it after Goku stating how Piccolo wouldn't do any good, hence his surprise -- which to me indicates he didn't think Piccolo would be a hot garabage. Vegeta also had a hint about it by the Cell Games, hence him asking Goku to show what he's capable of, which to me also indicates Vegeta still knew Goku had power to spare. So, even if what Goku showed at the warm up was his 50% power, their lack of surprise towards that not being Goku's FP makes sense imo.Goku wasn't using 50% at the Warm up. Piccolo was surprised 50% Goku can't beat Cell, despite sensing his Bulked up power and at the Cell Games everybody was like "Now the real fight starts!" when Goku prepared to power up, what doesn't make sense if Goku was already at what they thought it was his full power.
Sure, I'd like to have the gap a little bigger, but such is prevented by Gohan SSJ, who should still be significantly above Shin. You have Boo saga Piccolo at like 50% of SSJ Boo saga Gohan... do you have Boo saga ssj Gohan noticeably above CG Goku, for example?Shin is too close to Piccolo IMO. 1.33x doesn't sounds like "Worlds above", look at Vegeta vs Recoome. I think something like this works better:
Besides, a 75% might be described as "on a different dimension" if we consider the actual example of a 75% we've in the series. Recoome doesn't have an official BP, and for all we know he could be at like 35K~36K... even if he were at 40k, he still had a pretty sizeable lead over Vegeta considering the fight. Kuririn stated he didn't flinch over any of Vegeta's attack, and I've the impression he was pretty much toying, as seen by his lack of visible effort and by him asking something like "Do you have anything more to show, Vegeta? Otherwise I'll just kill you!", which can be interpreted as him just wishing to see what Vegeta's capable of.
In the Spanish version of the manga I have, Vegeta even stated Recoome treats him like a baby... seems like another level of power, honestly.
I honestly think having Dabura above Gohan seems more fitting with the fight. It's visible Gohan is having more problems on the fight, and is totally focused on it, whereas Dabura seems more collected in general and can even hear Goku and Vegeta's conversation. Dabura's statement later that he can easily take out Gohan with a cheerful face in contrast with Gohan's worried face and remembering of Goku's advice also adds on the Makaioshin's superiority.I think Dabura > Gohan sounds very unlikely, even more with a Goku/Cell gap. Dabura failed to even scratch Gohan with his blast and Gohan was able to break his sword and was the only one to land a solid it on a head to head fight.
Haha. There're three possible placements for the base Saiyans in the Boo saga, imo:Base Saiyans >>> Freeza
---> weaker than Freeza;
---> around the androids' power;
---> stronger than Boo saga Piccolo
Every one of those have evidences supporting it, so it really depends on what you wish to pick from the manga or outside material. I can go with every one of them, although I generally do entertain the latter less.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Because it wasn't implied to be the case with Cold. I go with the "always assume FP unless stated/implied otherwise", unless you think Cold being a good help against Goku ssj is an implication of him being suppressed there... meh.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Well, Freeza did a lot of power ups without transforming. Why can't Cold?
He did a silent power up before facing Cell. Whether he faced Cell with 50% or less, he had to have powered up, otherwise you'd be telling me Goku fought Cell in the warm up with his resting state, which was described by Piccolo as an "everyday level" -- indicating it's piss weak. Vegeta also didn't notice being surpassed until Goku displayed his 1/2 at Karin, also indicating Goku's resting state is < him (which should be already clear by it being it being described as an everyday level).and was never shown to power up against until going Full Power.
Piccolo and the others being shocked at it doesn't mean it has to surpass Cell's warm up level... Cell's warm up level was still pretty relevant at that point, only being surpassed by an useless power -- SSJG3 -- so surely displaying such power without even using a flawed form would warrant those reactions.
Fair enough. Could increase Shin to 4.5, but that'd make him too close to Gohan ssj. It's tough.Yeah, i know Recoome was playing with Vegeta. But once he got serious it didn't seem like he was worlds above him, at best "A world". The way Piccolo talked about him it sounded like Shin can one shit him IMO.
Dabura could of used those techniques as a way to get the job done faster. But yeah, maybe Dabura being = Gohan in power and having the advantages due to those techniques works better, but that'd make Dabura = CGs Goku... seems kind of pushing it imo.Gohan slacked off for 7 years, though. His stamina should be pretty shitty at this point. Even with such a power advantage he would be screwed against a fighter like Dabura who has pretty useful techniques. Even Dabura seems to notice that when he calls Gohan trash and earlier tries to avoid head to head fight and tries to only use his techniques in Gohan.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Hey, Dragon Brothas. I wished to discuss something. We have this chain in the manga:
Son Goku = Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) > Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) > Piccolo Daimao 40% ( Old ) >> Son Goku = Tenshinhan > Roshi
How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)? That'd make Roshi above 50% of Tenshinhan's BoZ power. Maybe Roshi got way stronger past 22nd Budokai, and in a faster pace than the Z warriors did?
Son Goku = Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) > Piccolo Daimao ( Old ) > Piccolo Daimao 40% ( Old ) >> Son Goku = Tenshinhan > Roshi
How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)? That'd make Roshi above 50% of Tenshinhan's BoZ power. Maybe Roshi got way stronger past 22nd Budokai, and in a faster pace than the Z warriors did?
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:18 wasn't taking the fight seriously, though. When both started to go all out she started to dominate the fight to the point she tanked a punch on the guts and tanked a blast head on with only cosmetic damage, and at the end she said Vegeta was nothing special. 1.2-1.25x is already out of the rivaling range, see at Monster Zarbon vs 24k Vegeta. Monster Zarbon isn't much different from Zenkai Vegeta who was stated by Jeice to be nearing 30k, but he utterly bodied Vegeta.dragonball0900 wrote: A 1.2 difference can also rival more than a 1.25 one (for example). Just look at this way, previously none of the others rivalled the androids in strenght at all, but Vegeta was the only one fighting better against one, and he did rival a bit to Android 18 with a 1.2 of difference, but should be no rival at all for 17, who is stronger. Piccolo in his weighted clothing passed from being no rival for any of the Androids, to be equal to Android 18 and at least able to fight Android 17 like how Vegeta fought Android 18. That for me is enough to say that he rivals the androids,
You don't.ahill1 wrote:How do you make it work with Roshi's BP given at Raditz's arrival (139)?
Let's assume the scouter saw Roshi's Weighted Power somehow and work from there with minimalist gaps:
Roshi (22nd): 54
Tenshinhan (22nd): 56.25
Goku (22nd): 60
Old Daimao (<50%): 90
Old Daimao (100%): 187.5
Young Daimao (<50%): 216
Young Daimao (Full Power): 450
You know better than this, Ahill.
Maybe Roshi did get that much stronger since the 22nd Tournament
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
I wish the Super manga give us some clarification about power placements that were left unclear in the original manga, which hasn't been done so far. Since in the next chapter Goku will be off recruiting people for the tournament, I hope we kind of get a more set in stone placement for the Earthlings. Also, do you guys think it's possible we also get a placement for Piccolo before fusing with Kami? Considering it is not set in stone, I'd embrace everything so long it isn't so ridiculously low like base Saiyajin from androids saga level lol.
Also, that seems an interesting post RG96. I'll analyze it better when I have a bit more of time.
Also, that seems an interesting post RG96. I'll analyze it better when I have a bit more of time.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
This topic is rather dead. I wonder if there's something I could post to liven up it.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
So, a battle power list following Freeza > base Saiyajins (which I don't necessarily follow but will be doing so for this list). And enjoy and comment on what you don't agree with.
Future Trunks' arrival
King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza : 150,000,000
[Then, one year after Freeza's defeat on Namek, Freeza decides to takes his revenge and get his title of the strongest in the Universe back. He says now he might be strong enough to go at Goku alone, but still is not sure, so much so he brings up his father alongside him... so having him around SSJ Goku [Namek] is fitting.
King Cold is strong enough that he'd ensure Freeza's win against SSJ Goku, so he shouldn't be TOO much below them... but still, we get a clear statement in the Daizenshuu that he is somewhat weaker than 100% Freeza]
Future Trunks : 3,400,000
--> SSJ : 170,000,000
Son Goku : 3,600,000
--> SSJ : 180,000,000
[Future Trunks doesn't seem worried with Freeza at all and even encourages him, alongside his father, to go at him at full power... still stating he'd defeat them in seconds, so he is for sure stronger than Mecha Freeza. Still, I don't think it has to be by a pretty big amount, and even an 88% gap can justify such confidence, considering Vegeta was soundly defeating Goku on Earth with such gap.
Goku's strength surprised Trunks, who stated Goku is even better than what he had heard second handed... but still considering the new upcoming threat -- said by Trunks to be monsters and stronger than him -- scared Goku and urged in him the need to train hard for three years, I'd say his gap over Trunks is limited... they are still on the same general level, even moreso when both were basically testing the waters in their little scuffle. Goku at 180M sounds also a fine improvement considering it seems he did spend most of his time trying to master the Shunkanido. Still, this is a battle power enough to overwhelm his Namek SSJ self].
Androids saga
Android #19 : 110,000,000
--> Post absorptions : 153,000,000
Android #20 : 135,000,000
--> Post absorptions : 164,000,000
[Those androids aren't so strong initially, but eventually did get quite a bit stronger (mainly #19) upon absorbing the heroe's energy... #19 post was still labeled by Vegeta to not match their rumors (he even stated in VIZ that the legends far outstrips the reality), so I would say that not even his post absorption self is strong enough to overcome Trunks from 3 years ago.
#20 is initially quite a few steps above #19 and eventually recovers his position as the strongest upon absorbing energy... but his post absorption self is still "weak" enough that Piccolo would question him based on his strength and on it alone... Piccolo is still doubting his strength, and because of it, he considers that the story also changed on this aspect. But considering he still was doubting such, it'd make sense to have him on the same level as Trunks ssj from 3 years ago, imo]
Piccolo : 190,000,000
Future Trunks : 4,500,000
--> SSJ : 225,000,000
Son Goku : 5,000,000
--> SSJ : 250,000,000
Vegeta : 5,200,000
--> SSJ : 260,000,000
[All those warriors have been training and improving themselves. Piccolo is now strong enough that he isn't lacking confidence on his way to battle the androids, which would imply he is probably surpassing even Yardrat Goku. But he is still not in a different level, considering the androids being beated by him still eventually rises the question about their strength having in fact been changed, kind of implying the androids being bated that easily by him wasn't something he expected. So, stronger than [Yardrat] SSJ Goku, but still in the same general level is fitting.
The three SSJs are constantly grouped together and are, therefore, in a different tier from Piccolo. Even the weakest of them -- Trunks -- is still apparently not so much different from Vegeta via Tenshinhan's comment and strong enough to be used as a way for Piccolo to clarify how monstrous those androids are, post their defeat. Goku and Vegeta are a step or two above Trunks and very close together, considering Piccolo couldn't even distinguish Vegeta from Goku in a straight way and had to take a guess.]
Android #18 : 340,000,000
Android #17 : 380,000,000
[Both androids are on their own tier and the weakest -- #18 -- is strong enough to shrug off Vegeta's powerful blast -- in the anime it was a BBA iirc -- with only a few bruises. Besides, she considers Vegeta nothing special and rivals someone -- weighted Kamiccolo -- to whom Vegeta stated was for sure above his own power.
#17 is stated in a title page to be "less suppressed" compared to #18, so he is stronger than his sister, but they are still in the same plane of power considering Piccolo W/Kami (weighted) is said to rival both.]
Piccolo w/Kami [weighted] : 340,000,000
--> non weighted : 380,000,000
[Strong enough to fight on par with #17 at his fullest capabilities]
Imperfect Cell [pre human] : 280,000,000
--> Post human : 500,000,000
Android #16 : 500,000,000
[Imperfect Cell, even pre absorptions, is implied to be rather strong, being referred by Vegeta as incredibly powerful... he is also strong enough that Vegeta probably considered him as one of the foes who surpassed him in the "they are outdoing me from left and right" statement and that Goku, even upon being fully healed, would consider him as somewhat out of his reach. Still, he doesn't rival the androids at all as per #16's statement, so whilst he is stronger than the SSJs, he is still in a tier below the androids #17 and #18.
Imperfect Cell post absorbing all those humans did evidently reach a new level, so much so his power up was enough to left Piccolo completely flabbergasted, as well as to easily dispose of him and #17. #16 fought on par with him, so #16 is on a tier above compared to the androids and Piccolo, evidently.
Semi Perfect Cell [initial] : 800,000,000
--> Full power : 900,000,000
Future Trunks [post RoSaT] : 15,000,000
--> SSJ : 750,000,000
--> SSJG2 : 1,125,000,000
Vegeta [post RoSaT] : 16,000,000
--> SSJ : 800,000,000
--> SSJG2 : 1,200,000,000
Perfect Cell [vs Vegeta] : 1,600,000,000
Future Trunks SSJG3 : 1,800,000,000
[Cell did reach a new plateau of power after absorbing #17, with Goku describing it as such. Piccolo considered his power such that he stated he is somewhat of an unreachable foe, and that he couldn't be beaten by anyone no matter what they do. He is strong enough to tank #16 in a pretty impressive fashion and blast him, damaging him to the point he couldn't even move himself properly afterwards, denoting how much of a monster Cell did become.
Vegeta and Trunks, similarly, also reached a different level of power after training in the Room, with their SSJ strong enough to be a tough challenge to initial Semi Cell, allowing their upcoming transformations to completely stomp Cell. Cell could get zero offensive power and was bodied left from right. He then 'kind of' tricked his way out of the fight, convincing Vegeta to allow him to become perfect, so he'd have a better challenge, exploiting, of course, Vegeta's will to fight strong opponents. That, proved to be, though, Vegeta's undoing, and Cell got strong enough to easily defeat SSJG2 Vegeta when barely even taking him serious.
Trunks did another transformation, recognised by the big mass muscle and absence of speed. Like described by Goku, it kills the user's speed, so even though Trunks was significantly above that Perfect Cell -- to the point he thought he wouldn't even need the Senzu Beans to win -- his speed was just completely out of sync with his battle power, and he couldn't hit Cell at all.]
Son Goku SSJ [50%] : 1,600,000,000
[Son Goku also trained in the RoSaT with his son and powered up even more than Vegeta and Trunks did, so much so he could soundly outclass Vegeta with half of his power alone... his power was such that it flabbergasted all of the Z warriors and aggravated Vegeta's will into entering in the room and training his ass off for the Cell Games. I think this level of Goku being at the level Cell used to demolish Vegeta to be pretty fitting, even moreso when they apparently fought on par with each other when warming up -- assuming Goku was using 50%, that is...]
Cell Games
Android #16 : 500,000,000
Piccolo : 1,600,000,000
Future Trunks : 38,000,000
--> SSJ : 1,900,000,000
Vegeta : 40,000,000
--> SSJ : 2,000,000,000
Cell Junior : 2,100,000,000
[#16 has logically the same power as before. Piccolo powered up a bunch in his time in the RoSaT, so much so he'd be complimented by Goku and warrant a reaction of surprise from Trunks after Goku clarifying he was still useless. He was also strong enough to not be easily done in by the Cell Juniors and was still standing up at the end of the fight just like Vegeta and Trunks, although it's likely he wasn't giving the same kind of fight those latters were given Cell's statement. Still, it's pretty impressive that he'd reach 50% Goku's level of power.
Vegeta and Trunks also did power up a lot, and Vegeta was even confident in being the one to defeat Cell before becoming aware of how strong 100% Goku and Cell really were, so it's logical to think he at least surpassed 50% Goku and the level Cell used to trounce him, and so did Trunks, consequently.
The Cell Juniors are slightly stronger than them, considering Cell stated they were 'barely' fighting evenly, but Vegeta and Trunks are still strong enough to reciprocate. Vegeta, at least, was seen exchanging blows of same effect against one of them.]
Son Goku FPSSJ : 3,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [vs Goku] : 3,400,000,000
--> Full power : 5,000,000,000
Son Gohan FPSSJ : 3,400,000,000
--> Speed : 3,800,000,000
--> SSJ2 + rage boost : 8,000,000,000
'Super' Perfect Cell : 7,200,000,000
[So, Goku's full power is strong enough to flabbergast everyone... so is Cell's 'still suppressed' power, who was somewhat above Goku's 100%, described by Vegeta to be "1 or 2 steps" above Kakarotto.
Gohan is also quite a power house merely in SSJ, much for everyone's surprise. Goku stated that Gohan would be the one to finish this threat once and for all, indicating that, upon fighting Cell, he got to know Gohan had the ability to take him down. Gohan powers up, and Cell states that what Goku said wasn't a total bluff, but that it's still an exaggeration to think he had the power to defeat him, indicating Gohan FPSSJ is above his father, but still below Cell. Cell then gets surprised by Gohan's speed and resilience, getting caught off guard because of it, but his battle power didn't seem to be even above the level Cell used to battle Goku, considering Cell only saw the need to increase his speed. So, Gohan's BP is moderately stronger than Goku's whilst his speed would be a bit out of sync with his chi-level, which is also seen in the Boo saga when he is confident in his speed against Fat Boo despite his battle power being way lower.
Then, Cell learns what Goku actually meant when he said Gohan could defeat him : his rage boost! Then, he begins to try 'pulling' that out of Gohan, and upon seeing how merely harming Gohan isn't necessary, he targets his friends instead.
Gohan gets angry and easily pummels around full power Perfect Cell. I believe Gohan got a rage boost on top of his SSJ2 due to some implications in the Boo saga and by the fact that the gaps in the Cell Games would flow better that way, in which case we wouldn't need to have a humongous gap between Gohan and Goku in the CGs while in same forms.
Super Perfect Cell gets a big power up upon getting a Zenkai, and is strong enough that he thinks this time things won't turn out to be so easy... he still is most definitely weaker though considering Gohan is used as a benchmark in the Boo saga, and also considering that Goku was sure that, in a KMHMH struggle (in which only power is involved) Gohan would defeat Cell. So, Cell is somewhat close with Gohan being still the superior one.
Trunks' future
Future Gohan [2 arms] : 2,300,000
--> SSJ : 115,000,000
Future Gohan [1 arm] : 3,300,000
--> SSJ : 165,000,000
Future Trunks [age 17] : 3,400,00
--> SSJ : 170,000,000
Future Android #18 : 260,000,000
Future Android #17 : 280,000,000
--> Less than half : 132,000,000
Future Trunks [coming back] : 38,000,000
--> SSJ : 1,900,000,000
--> SSJ (after 3 years) : 2,200,000,000
Imperfect Cell : 440,000,000
[Future Gohan [2 arms]'s power is basically left in the shadows, we can only speculate about such power... as for 1 arm Gohan, we know he is considerably above [less than half] #17, considering he considered the prospect of fighting against both, infinite-energy model types, when lacking an arm... and we also know that he is still in the same level as the future Trunks who was about to go back to the past, which would make him at least stronger than Mecha Freeza and Namek SSJ Goku...
Future Android #18 is implied to be at [androids saga] SSJ Vegeta's level, given Trunks' comment about Vegeta fighting on par with those outrageously powerful androids when still being unaware about them being stronger than the ones from his time... and #17 should be, logically, a bit above that.
As for Imperfect Cell, we might figure he is at a higher level than the one who fought against Kamiccolo in Ginger Town, considering he displayed an aura when fighting Trunks, whereas that Cell didn't... but I'd still wager he is still not quite as strong as the one who devastated Kamiccolo and #17, since that Cell stated he aborbed "more people than needed"... and he had previously stated that absorbing Piccolo would almost get him to his 1st evolution FP level or something like this... so I'd figure that his "1st evolution level" is the level he had before reverting to an egg, and that he lost a lot of power when reverting to an egg, so he should absorb people to get him back to that level... but since he absorbed more people than needed in the main's timeline, he'd get stronger than that (500M vs 430M)... that's my take on that Cell's power.
Trunks' post three years is kind of a wild card, but considering (dunno the source) it was stated he seemed somewhat busy in helping re-building the destroyed word and that his hobby is him helping in building stuff, I don't think he has gotten way stronger... I still think he is still quite a bit weaker than Cell Games Goku, honestly... slightly above the Cell Juniors seems fitting here]
Anyway, give it a *bleep*ing read, and comment!
Future Trunks' arrival
King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza : 150,000,000
[Then, one year after Freeza's defeat on Namek, Freeza decides to takes his revenge and get his title of the strongest in the Universe back. He says now he might be strong enough to go at Goku alone, but still is not sure, so much so he brings up his father alongside him... so having him around SSJ Goku [Namek] is fitting.
King Cold is strong enough that he'd ensure Freeza's win against SSJ Goku, so he shouldn't be TOO much below them... but still, we get a clear statement in the Daizenshuu that he is somewhat weaker than 100% Freeza]
Future Trunks : 3,400,000
--> SSJ : 170,000,000
Son Goku : 3,600,000
--> SSJ : 180,000,000
[Future Trunks doesn't seem worried with Freeza at all and even encourages him, alongside his father, to go at him at full power... still stating he'd defeat them in seconds, so he is for sure stronger than Mecha Freeza. Still, I don't think it has to be by a pretty big amount, and even an 88% gap can justify such confidence, considering Vegeta was soundly defeating Goku on Earth with such gap.
Goku's strength surprised Trunks, who stated Goku is even better than what he had heard second handed... but still considering the new upcoming threat -- said by Trunks to be monsters and stronger than him -- scared Goku and urged in him the need to train hard for three years, I'd say his gap over Trunks is limited... they are still on the same general level, even moreso when both were basically testing the waters in their little scuffle. Goku at 180M sounds also a fine improvement considering it seems he did spend most of his time trying to master the Shunkanido. Still, this is a battle power enough to overwhelm his Namek SSJ self].
Androids saga
Android #19 : 110,000,000
--> Post absorptions : 153,000,000
Android #20 : 135,000,000
--> Post absorptions : 164,000,000
[Those androids aren't so strong initially, but eventually did get quite a bit stronger (mainly #19) upon absorbing the heroe's energy... #19 post was still labeled by Vegeta to not match their rumors (he even stated in VIZ that the legends far outstrips the reality), so I would say that not even his post absorption self is strong enough to overcome Trunks from 3 years ago.
#20 is initially quite a few steps above #19 and eventually recovers his position as the strongest upon absorbing energy... but his post absorption self is still "weak" enough that Piccolo would question him based on his strength and on it alone... Piccolo is still doubting his strength, and because of it, he considers that the story also changed on this aspect. But considering he still was doubting such, it'd make sense to have him on the same level as Trunks ssj from 3 years ago, imo]
Piccolo : 190,000,000
Future Trunks : 4,500,000
--> SSJ : 225,000,000
Son Goku : 5,000,000
--> SSJ : 250,000,000
Vegeta : 5,200,000
--> SSJ : 260,000,000
[All those warriors have been training and improving themselves. Piccolo is now strong enough that he isn't lacking confidence on his way to battle the androids, which would imply he is probably surpassing even Yardrat Goku. But he is still not in a different level, considering the androids being beated by him still eventually rises the question about their strength having in fact been changed, kind of implying the androids being bated that easily by him wasn't something he expected. So, stronger than [Yardrat] SSJ Goku, but still in the same general level is fitting.
The three SSJs are constantly grouped together and are, therefore, in a different tier from Piccolo. Even the weakest of them -- Trunks -- is still apparently not so much different from Vegeta via Tenshinhan's comment and strong enough to be used as a way for Piccolo to clarify how monstrous those androids are, post their defeat. Goku and Vegeta are a step or two above Trunks and very close together, considering Piccolo couldn't even distinguish Vegeta from Goku in a straight way and had to take a guess.]
Android #18 : 340,000,000
Android #17 : 380,000,000
[Both androids are on their own tier and the weakest -- #18 -- is strong enough to shrug off Vegeta's powerful blast -- in the anime it was a BBA iirc -- with only a few bruises. Besides, she considers Vegeta nothing special and rivals someone -- weighted Kamiccolo -- to whom Vegeta stated was for sure above his own power.
#17 is stated in a title page to be "less suppressed" compared to #18, so he is stronger than his sister, but they are still in the same plane of power considering Piccolo W/Kami (weighted) is said to rival both.]
Piccolo w/Kami [weighted] : 340,000,000
--> non weighted : 380,000,000
[Strong enough to fight on par with #17 at his fullest capabilities]
Imperfect Cell [pre human] : 280,000,000
--> Post human : 500,000,000
Android #16 : 500,000,000
[Imperfect Cell, even pre absorptions, is implied to be rather strong, being referred by Vegeta as incredibly powerful... he is also strong enough that Vegeta probably considered him as one of the foes who surpassed him in the "they are outdoing me from left and right" statement and that Goku, even upon being fully healed, would consider him as somewhat out of his reach. Still, he doesn't rival the androids at all as per #16's statement, so whilst he is stronger than the SSJs, he is still in a tier below the androids #17 and #18.
Imperfect Cell post absorbing all those humans did evidently reach a new level, so much so his power up was enough to left Piccolo completely flabbergasted, as well as to easily dispose of him and #17. #16 fought on par with him, so #16 is on a tier above compared to the androids and Piccolo, evidently.
Semi Perfect Cell [initial] : 800,000,000
--> Full power : 900,000,000
Future Trunks [post RoSaT] : 15,000,000
--> SSJ : 750,000,000
--> SSJG2 : 1,125,000,000
Vegeta [post RoSaT] : 16,000,000
--> SSJ : 800,000,000
--> SSJG2 : 1,200,000,000
Perfect Cell [vs Vegeta] : 1,600,000,000
Future Trunks SSJG3 : 1,800,000,000
[Cell did reach a new plateau of power after absorbing #17, with Goku describing it as such. Piccolo considered his power such that he stated he is somewhat of an unreachable foe, and that he couldn't be beaten by anyone no matter what they do. He is strong enough to tank #16 in a pretty impressive fashion and blast him, damaging him to the point he couldn't even move himself properly afterwards, denoting how much of a monster Cell did become.
Vegeta and Trunks, similarly, also reached a different level of power after training in the Room, with their SSJ strong enough to be a tough challenge to initial Semi Cell, allowing their upcoming transformations to completely stomp Cell. Cell could get zero offensive power and was bodied left from right. He then 'kind of' tricked his way out of the fight, convincing Vegeta to allow him to become perfect, so he'd have a better challenge, exploiting, of course, Vegeta's will to fight strong opponents. That, proved to be, though, Vegeta's undoing, and Cell got strong enough to easily defeat SSJG2 Vegeta when barely even taking him serious.
Trunks did another transformation, recognised by the big mass muscle and absence of speed. Like described by Goku, it kills the user's speed, so even though Trunks was significantly above that Perfect Cell -- to the point he thought he wouldn't even need the Senzu Beans to win -- his speed was just completely out of sync with his battle power, and he couldn't hit Cell at all.]
Son Goku SSJ [50%] : 1,600,000,000
[Son Goku also trained in the RoSaT with his son and powered up even more than Vegeta and Trunks did, so much so he could soundly outclass Vegeta with half of his power alone... his power was such that it flabbergasted all of the Z warriors and aggravated Vegeta's will into entering in the room and training his ass off for the Cell Games. I think this level of Goku being at the level Cell used to demolish Vegeta to be pretty fitting, even moreso when they apparently fought on par with each other when warming up -- assuming Goku was using 50%, that is...]
Cell Games
Android #16 : 500,000,000
Piccolo : 1,600,000,000
Future Trunks : 38,000,000
--> SSJ : 1,900,000,000
Vegeta : 40,000,000
--> SSJ : 2,000,000,000
Cell Junior : 2,100,000,000
[#16 has logically the same power as before. Piccolo powered up a bunch in his time in the RoSaT, so much so he'd be complimented by Goku and warrant a reaction of surprise from Trunks after Goku clarifying he was still useless. He was also strong enough to not be easily done in by the Cell Juniors and was still standing up at the end of the fight just like Vegeta and Trunks, although it's likely he wasn't giving the same kind of fight those latters were given Cell's statement. Still, it's pretty impressive that he'd reach 50% Goku's level of power.
Vegeta and Trunks also did power up a lot, and Vegeta was even confident in being the one to defeat Cell before becoming aware of how strong 100% Goku and Cell really were, so it's logical to think he at least surpassed 50% Goku and the level Cell used to trounce him, and so did Trunks, consequently.
The Cell Juniors are slightly stronger than them, considering Cell stated they were 'barely' fighting evenly, but Vegeta and Trunks are still strong enough to reciprocate. Vegeta, at least, was seen exchanging blows of same effect against one of them.]
Son Goku FPSSJ : 3,000,000,000
Perfect Cell [vs Goku] : 3,400,000,000
--> Full power : 5,000,000,000
Son Gohan FPSSJ : 3,400,000,000
--> Speed : 3,800,000,000
--> SSJ2 + rage boost : 8,000,000,000
'Super' Perfect Cell : 7,200,000,000
[So, Goku's full power is strong enough to flabbergast everyone... so is Cell's 'still suppressed' power, who was somewhat above Goku's 100%, described by Vegeta to be "1 or 2 steps" above Kakarotto.
Gohan is also quite a power house merely in SSJ, much for everyone's surprise. Goku stated that Gohan would be the one to finish this threat once and for all, indicating that, upon fighting Cell, he got to know Gohan had the ability to take him down. Gohan powers up, and Cell states that what Goku said wasn't a total bluff, but that it's still an exaggeration to think he had the power to defeat him, indicating Gohan FPSSJ is above his father, but still below Cell. Cell then gets surprised by Gohan's speed and resilience, getting caught off guard because of it, but his battle power didn't seem to be even above the level Cell used to battle Goku, considering Cell only saw the need to increase his speed. So, Gohan's BP is moderately stronger than Goku's whilst his speed would be a bit out of sync with his chi-level, which is also seen in the Boo saga when he is confident in his speed against Fat Boo despite his battle power being way lower.
Then, Cell learns what Goku actually meant when he said Gohan could defeat him : his rage boost! Then, he begins to try 'pulling' that out of Gohan, and upon seeing how merely harming Gohan isn't necessary, he targets his friends instead.
Gohan gets angry and easily pummels around full power Perfect Cell. I believe Gohan got a rage boost on top of his SSJ2 due to some implications in the Boo saga and by the fact that the gaps in the Cell Games would flow better that way, in which case we wouldn't need to have a humongous gap between Gohan and Goku in the CGs while in same forms.
Super Perfect Cell gets a big power up upon getting a Zenkai, and is strong enough that he thinks this time things won't turn out to be so easy... he still is most definitely weaker though considering Gohan is used as a benchmark in the Boo saga, and also considering that Goku was sure that, in a KMHMH struggle (in which only power is involved) Gohan would defeat Cell. So, Cell is somewhat close with Gohan being still the superior one.
Trunks' future
Future Gohan [2 arms] : 2,300,000
--> SSJ : 115,000,000
Future Gohan [1 arm] : 3,300,000
--> SSJ : 165,000,000
Future Trunks [age 17] : 3,400,00
--> SSJ : 170,000,000
Future Android #18 : 260,000,000
Future Android #17 : 280,000,000
--> Less than half : 132,000,000
Future Trunks [coming back] : 38,000,000
--> SSJ : 1,900,000,000
--> SSJ (after 3 years) : 2,200,000,000
Imperfect Cell : 440,000,000
[Future Gohan [2 arms]'s power is basically left in the shadows, we can only speculate about such power... as for 1 arm Gohan, we know he is considerably above [less than half] #17, considering he considered the prospect of fighting against both, infinite-energy model types, when lacking an arm... and we also know that he is still in the same level as the future Trunks who was about to go back to the past, which would make him at least stronger than Mecha Freeza and Namek SSJ Goku...
Future Android #18 is implied to be at [androids saga] SSJ Vegeta's level, given Trunks' comment about Vegeta fighting on par with those outrageously powerful androids when still being unaware about them being stronger than the ones from his time... and #17 should be, logically, a bit above that.
As for Imperfect Cell, we might figure he is at a higher level than the one who fought against Kamiccolo in Ginger Town, considering he displayed an aura when fighting Trunks, whereas that Cell didn't... but I'd still wager he is still not quite as strong as the one who devastated Kamiccolo and #17, since that Cell stated he aborbed "more people than needed"... and he had previously stated that absorbing Piccolo would almost get him to his 1st evolution FP level or something like this... so I'd figure that his "1st evolution level" is the level he had before reverting to an egg, and that he lost a lot of power when reverting to an egg, so he should absorb people to get him back to that level... but since he absorbed more people than needed in the main's timeline, he'd get stronger than that (500M vs 430M)... that's my take on that Cell's power.
Trunks' post three years is kind of a wild card, but considering (dunno the source) it was stated he seemed somewhat busy in helping re-building the destroyed word and that his hobby is him helping in building stuff, I don't think he has gotten way stronger... I still think he is still quite a bit weaker than Cell Games Goku, honestly... slightly above the Cell Juniors seems fitting here]
Anyway, give it a *bleep*ing read, and comment!
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Well, this is something we should be already well aware of, is it not? The Freeza > base Saiyajins believers have drasitically increased among the years due to Beerus' statement, in which is stated it doesn't appear Goku could have possibly defeated Freeza when the former was in base alone. If we take the SSJ's amplification to be the official 50x, then there's a cap for how strong the Boo saga Saiyajins can get, as (taking Beerus' statement at face value) their SSJ state can't be 50x above Freeza and therefore not hit the 6 billions mark just yet. Whilst I know you don't work with set multiplier for the SSJ transformation, you believe it to be less than a 50x boost, right? In which case the rabit hole on the Boo saga Saiyajins' power would be even shallower.Vertical wrote:Curious as to what you are referring to here.Kaboom wrote:Especially since nowadays we kind of have an upper limit on Goku's power for the Cell and Boo arcs.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Namek's battle
Freeza (100%) -- 230,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 250,000,000
Future Trunks' arrival
Son Gohan -- 900,000
Piccolo -- 4,500,000
Vegeta -- 5,000,000
King Cold -- 180,000,000
Mecha Freeza -- 270,000,000
Future Trunks -- 9,000,000
--- SSJ -- 450,000,000
Son Goku -- 10,500,000
-- SSJ --- 525,000,000
Android's arrival
Android #19 (pre) -- 600,000,000
-- Post --- 800,000,000
Android #20 (pre) -- 750,000,000
-- Post --- 900,000,000
Piccolo -- 1,080,000,000
Future Trunks -- 24,300,000
-- SSJ --- 1,215,000,000
Son Goku -- 25,920,000
-- SSJ (sick) --- 800,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,296,000,000
Vegeta -- 27,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,350,000,000
Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000
Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000
Cell shows up!!!!
Imperfect Cell -- 1,500,000,000
Kamiccolo (weighted) -- 1,800,000,000
-- Non weights --- 2,100,000,000
Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000
Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000
Semi Cell (initially) -- 50,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 60,000,000,000
Vegeta (post Rosat) -- 120,000,000
-- SSJ --- 60,000,000,000
-- SSJG2 --- 80,000,000,000
Trunks SSJG2 -- 75,000,000,000
Perfect Cell (warming up) -- 73,000,000,000
-- Fooling with Vegeta --- 300,000,000,000
Trunks SSJG3 -- 375,000,000,000
Goku FPSSJ (50%) -- 625,000,000,000
Cell Games
Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000
Piccolo -- 700,000,000,000
Future Trunks -- 16,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 800,000,000,000
Vegeta -- 16,500,000,000
-- SSJ --- 825,000,000,000
Cell Junior -- 850,000,000,000
Son Goku -- 25,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,250,000,000,000
Cell (vs Goku) -- 1,420,000,000,000
Son Gohan FPSSJ -- 1,875,000,000,000
Cell (full power) -- 5,625,000,000,000
Super Perfect Cell -- 8,750,000,000,000
Son Gohan SSJ2 -- 9,375,000,000,000
Boo Saga
Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000
Yakon -- 40,000,000,000
Piccolo -- 800,000,000,000
East Kaioshin -- 1,200,000,000,000
Son Goten SSJ -- 1,250,000,000,000
Chibi Trunks SSJ -- 1,300,000,000,000
Teen Gohan -- 28,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 7,000,000,000,000
Vegeta (pre Majin) -- 33,750,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,687,500,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 8,437,500,000,000
Son Goku -- 40,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 2,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000
Majin Vegeta SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000
Fat Boo (full power) -- 80,000,000,000,000
Son Goku SSJ3 -- 100,000,000,000,000
Gotenks base (pre Rosat) -- 2,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 120,000,000,000,000
---- // -----
Gotenks (post Rosat) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 25,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 125,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ3 --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000
Super Boo (initially) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan -- 1,875,000,000,000,000,000
Bootenks -- 2,500,000,000,000,000,000
Boohan -- 3,125,000,000,000,000,000
Vegetto -- 200,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 10,000,000,000,000,000,000
Buff Boo -- 1,562,500,000,000,000,000
Freeza (100%) -- 230,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 250,000,000
Future Trunks' arrival
Son Gohan -- 900,000
Piccolo -- 4,500,000
Vegeta -- 5,000,000
King Cold -- 180,000,000
Mecha Freeza -- 270,000,000
Future Trunks -- 9,000,000
--- SSJ -- 450,000,000
Son Goku -- 10,500,000
-- SSJ --- 525,000,000
Android's arrival
Android #19 (pre) -- 600,000,000
-- Post --- 800,000,000
Android #20 (pre) -- 750,000,000
-- Post --- 900,000,000
Piccolo -- 1,080,000,000
Future Trunks -- 24,300,000
-- SSJ --- 1,215,000,000
Son Goku -- 25,920,000
-- SSJ (sick) --- 800,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,296,000,000
Vegeta -- 27,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,350,000,000
Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000
Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000
Cell shows up!!!!
Imperfect Cell -- 1,500,000,000
Kamiccolo (weighted) -- 1,800,000,000
-- Non weights --- 2,100,000,000
Android #17 -- 2,000,000,000
Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000
Semi Cell (initially) -- 50,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 60,000,000,000
Vegeta (post Rosat) -- 120,000,000
-- SSJ --- 60,000,000,000
-- SSJG2 --- 80,000,000,000
Trunks SSJG2 -- 75,000,000,000
Perfect Cell (warming up) -- 73,000,000,000
-- Fooling with Vegeta --- 300,000,000,000
Trunks SSJG3 -- 375,000,000,000
Goku FPSSJ (50%) -- 625,000,000,000
Cell Games
Android #16 -- 15,000,000,000
Piccolo -- 700,000,000,000
Future Trunks -- 16,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 800,000,000,000
Vegeta -- 16,500,000,000
-- SSJ --- 825,000,000,000
Cell Junior -- 850,000,000,000
Son Goku -- 25,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,250,000,000,000
Cell (vs Goku) -- 1,420,000,000,000
Son Gohan FPSSJ -- 1,875,000,000,000
Cell (full power) -- 5,625,000,000,000
Super Perfect Cell -- 8,750,000,000,000
Son Gohan SSJ2 -- 9,375,000,000,000
Boo Saga
Android #18 -- 1,800,000,000
Yakon -- 40,000,000,000
Piccolo -- 800,000,000,000
East Kaioshin -- 1,200,000,000,000
Son Goten SSJ -- 1,250,000,000,000
Chibi Trunks SSJ -- 1,300,000,000,000
Teen Gohan -- 28,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 7,000,000,000,000
Vegeta (pre Majin) -- 33,750,000,000
-- SSJ --- 1,687,500,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 8,437,500,000,000
Son Goku -- 40,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 2,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000
Majin Vegeta SSJ2 -- 10,000,000,000,000
Fat Boo (full power) -- 80,000,000,000,000
Son Goku SSJ3 -- 100,000,000,000,000
Gotenks base (pre Rosat) -- 2,400,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 120,000,000,000,000
---- // -----
Gotenks (post Rosat) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 25,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ2 --- 125,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ3 --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000
Super Boo (initially) -- 500,000,000,000,000
-- Full power --- 1,250,000,000,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan -- 1,875,000,000,000,000,000
Bootenks -- 2,500,000,000,000,000,000
Boohan -- 3,125,000,000,000,000,000
Vegetto -- 200,000,000,000,000,000
-- SSJ --- 10,000,000,000,000,000,000
Buff Boo -- 1,562,500,000,000,000,000
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
ahill's passionate battle power list:
Feel free to criticize/offer a feedback. It'd be appreciated.
Spoiler:
Feel free to criticize/offer a feedback. It'd be appreciated.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
Well, I can adhere to the idea that Freeza doubles his power whenever he transforms, but since I generally do use the 3M number for base Goku for convenience's sake, final form Freeza's advantage over base Goku would look a little too big for what the fight showed.p-hyvo wrote:ahill1 wrote:ahill's passionate battle power list:
Spoiler:
Feel free to criticize/offer a feedback. It'd be appreciated.
Mh, guidelines power levels to a some extent, ok.
Soo
Following this logic, freezer 2 is around a million, let's just double his original pl for the sake of comfort and we have 1'060'000.
for freezer 3 just double again, 2'120'000, and same for freezer 4 initial , at 4'240'000.
At this point, I'd use a natural multiplier of 90'000 for goku, putting him at 4'500'000.
Plus, both post genkidama freezer and goku (when he turned ssj) were injuried, so I'd don't do ssj base full power goku x50.
For the Android saga, I see you tend to use kind of ugly numbers and really weird multipliers... to use round numbers is just better visibly speaking.
For the humans I llike to use multipliers of their saiyan saga power levels, but this is subjective after all.
For buu saga: just use the normal daizenshuu gaps between multipliers, or at least for ssj1 and 2. Else it would be a mess. Consider kiri scaling also, it helps.just why changing fusions ssj multipliers? It's no sense. That limit the gap idea is totally no sense imo.
I think Goku managed to recover his strength once he turned into a SSJ... maybe turning into a SSJ for the first time allows the Sayajin to replenish their strength. As we saw, Goku could barely walk on his own after the Genki-Dama, while Goku, when he leveled down to base after giving Freeza a little of his energy, could fly and dodge Freeza's kienzan, showing he wasn't at that pathetic level.
Sure haha. My numbers might not look so round up and therefore good in the eyes. Will keep that in mind.
I can roll with the 2x SSJ2 multiplier, sure, but due to some headcanon I opted to use a bigger one. Basically, I like to see Cell's power up to full power as a similar power up Vegeta performed when leveling up to grade 2 due to similarities in their auras... and based on kid Gohan's tanking feat, I like to envision a rather big gap between him and full power Cell, bigger than gaps like SSJ Vegeta vs Android #19 going by their tanking feats. So a 2x power up for Gohan ends up kinda too small to match these PoVs.
As for the differing multipliers, while there isn't anything explicitly stating the multiplier is lessened for fusions, I just like to see it that way so Gotenks' advantage over Goku doesn't end up hitting the hundrends or even thousands of times.
Edit: Damn, I thought I'd be using Goku's Daizenshuu number (battle against Freeza) for this list. Have just noticed that I opted to go with 5M for his base level.
Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
What'd be your estimation for Vegeta's battle power post his last Zenkai on Namek? I think 2.4 millions fits well with Goku's official number, but if you want to scale your own way, I'd say Vegeta gets up to 3 millions or so.