Dragonball GT: not so bad after all

[JulieYBM]

When was it ever explicitly stated Vegeta had stopped training completely?

[Kaboom]

When was it ever explicitly stated Vegeta had stopped training completely?

I don't believe it was. But it's the only plausible way that Vegeta would be so much weaker than Goku.

Although, I don't think it's as much a case of being powered DOWN for Goku's sake. That'd be stuff like Gohan's Ultimate form being MIA or Gotenks never appearing.

The problem with the Super 17 arc is more a matter of Goku being powered UP. Since not just Vegeta, but here's Oob who, in his new super-duper merged-with-Boo state, is at least equal if not superior to Goku at SSj3. But now Oob can't budge Super 17 while Goku can punch him halfway across the planet at just Super Saiyan 1. It's like, "let's make Goku super-duper-extra powerful without even caring how strong anyone else should be." That's not even just a symptom of the Super 17 arc; it starts even earlier. Like when Goku tangos with Rild, who is "as strong as (an unspecified form of) Boo," without even using Super Saiyan. Or when he likewise in episode 1 fights "all-out" in base form against Oob who, for all we're given to believe, is already at Kid Boo's level.

But the power inconsistencies are just the tip of the iceberg with GT's problems.

[Cipher]

It makes no sense for Vegeta to loaf off EXCEPT as a way to cut him down so ~GOKU~ can shine all the brighter.

Where was it shown that he'd loafed off considerably? Sure, he's more adjusted to Earth life, but nothing in the show ever indicates he's stopped fighting. He even scolds Trunks and Goten for slacking on their training as he drags them to the spaceship.

As for all the other characters, yes, it makes sense that they've stopped training. Everyone's more or less where you'd expect them to be.

To address a few other complaints:

1) The Rildo thing. Rildo was not killed de facto by three base Kamehamehas. As has already been said, it was Baby controlling his husk, who allowed him to be killed by the blast. For all we know, Baby's presence in his body may have been what killed him in the first place, as Baby seemed to be able to kill everyone on that space-airplane via possession. This is the easiest argument by which to catch people who weren't actually paying attention to the show, and it definitely takes away credence from them pointing out other (legitimate) plotholes.

2) Characters not going Super Saiyan/using techniques when they should. Let's ignore the whole Super Saiyan 2 debacle (which is a Toei problem starting in the Buu arc) and count the number of times this actually happens. Arguably on Imecca, arguably against the Muuma in the asteroid, against Mutchi-Mutchi, and then a few times on M2. And Goku also seems to start out going pretty soft against the evil Dragons.

Few, if any, of these occasions do not involve Goku's desire to dick around with an opponent. This was true of Mutchi-Mutchi until he gained the upper-hand via strangulation, and is true of the Sigma Force Cannon (who is promptly dispatched when he gets serious). This is completely in line with Goku's character at this point. The guy is an adrenaline junkie with god-like powers and no one to use them on. He toys around. He's an arrogant dick in GT, which is about where he should be, and you can see the roots of it going all the way back to the Majin Vegeta fight. I have no problem with this.

For that matter, Goku's toying with his opponents actually brings up a beautiful consistency in GT. No one in space is stronger than Freeza. That's unbelievably awesome. The lazy thing to do would have been to fill space with aliens strong enough to give Goku a challenge. They didn't. There's only one being out there who can take on a Super Saiyan, and it's Rildo, presumably created after Freeza's defeat. That's fantastic, and if that sort of detail requires Goku being a bit more carefree to create tension, then I'm all for it.

If you still hate GT, that's fine. Just wanted to weigh in on those specific complaints.

Although, I don't think it's as much a case of being powered DOWN for Goku's sake. That'd be stuff like Gohan's Ultimate form being MIA or Gotenks never appearing.

The only time Goku's strength gets way out of whack is against Super 17, which I totally agree is a huge error all around. Gohan's "ultimate form" can go missing because it's fifteen years since we've last seen it and we have no clue how permanent or effective it was ever intended to be. And as soon as Super Saiyan 4 shows up and even Kid Buu level Uub is being kicked around like a sandbag, Gotenks really doesn't have much to do. Although it would have been cool to have seen him.

Or when he likewise in episode 1 fights "all-out" in base form against Oob who, for all we're given to believe, is already at Kid Boo's level.

Uub doesn't get Kid Buu level stength until he fuses with Mr. Buu.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku can go toe-to-toe (sort of) with third form Baby Vegeta after regaining his tail and being able to maintain it. Subtract some strength from adult Super Saiyan 3 Goku for being a kid.

After fusing, Uub takes on third form Baby Vegeta fairly evenly, which he couldn't do before. So you end up with someone who should be around adult Super Saiyan 3 Goku's power, i.e. Kid Buu.

Before the transformation, we have no reason to believe he's any stronger than base Goku, which is already insane. Reincarnation or not, he's still physiologically a human at that point, and still bound by human limits.

[Senzu_Bean]

This is the easiest argument by which to catch people who weren't actually paying attention to the show, and it definitely takes away credence from them pointing out other (legitimate) plotholes.

Typical... people don't pay attention too when Goku, when turning Super Saiyan 4, goes into the mall and buy new clothes, uh? And I thought Planet Plant didn't have malls.

2) Characters not going Super Saiyan/using techniques when they should. Let's ignore the whole Super Saiyan 2 debacle (which is a Toei problem starting in the Buu arc) and count the number of times this actually happens.

Ignoring GT inconsistencies doesn't really bail in favor of the show, you know? Goku shouldn't have any problem with anything he found on space. He is stronger than freaking Majin Buu in Base! Even if that non-logical power isn't enough he could have go SSJ2 or SSJ3 to kill those Mutchy... something.

And don't make me start when they put SSJ Trunks stronger than Goku in base but after 10 episodes Goku is stronger than Majin Buu.

The lazy thing to do would have been to fill space with aliens strong enough to give Goku a challenge.

But they did and with that created the most retard thing ever in Dragonball history. For whatever reason Goku can fight someone stronger than Majin Buu in his normal form, thus all guys and things he fought before are equal to stronger than Majin Buu. The worms, Ledgic, Mutchi-Mutchi, Muy or whatever, etc., etc. Incredible logic, isn't?

[Cipher]

Typical... people don't pay attention too when Goku, when turning Super Saiyan 4, goes into the mall and buy new clothes, uh? And I thought Planet Plant didn't have malls.

I can't figure it out; are you just being contradictory for the sake of it? I said there were legitimate plotholes. The Rildo thing just isn't one of them, and it's easy to figure out why.

Goku shouldn't have any problem with anything he found on space.

Which is why, you know, he doesn't. I even said that. It speaks to the show's merit when they didn't fill space with impossibly strong aliens. Nothing gives Goku a challenge until Rildo comes along. Everyone else he just toys with for a bit.

Did ... did you read the part of my post where I said that?

He is stronger than freaking Majin Buu in Base!

Holy hell, since when?

Even if that non-logical power isn't enough he could have go SSJ2 or SSJ3 to kill those Mutchy... something.

They were in a tiny asteroid and probably wanted to avoid peripheral damage. And even then, he does wrangle them up in base form after a few minutes. So I don't see what the problem is.

Also, Muuma. It kind of bothers me when the people who go on and on about the show's errors can't be bothered to even remember plot points or names.

And don't make me start when they put SSJ Trunks stronger than Goku in base but after 10 episodes Goku is stronger than Majin Buu.

I seriously have no idea what you're talking about here. Scene?

But they did and with that created the most retard thing ever in Dragonball history.

We don't know what form of Buu he's talking about. Mr. Buu? Maybe then.

Either way, Rildo actually does mess Goku up in Super Saiyan (and possibly Super Saiyan 2). You know who the last person Goku had to use Super Saiyan 2 against was? Majin Buu. And the whole fight is played fairly non-seriously, with more emphasis on Rildo's super powers than physical strength, so we really don't have much to go on.

For whatever reason Goku can fight someone stronger than Majin Buu in his normal form, thus all guys and things he fought before are equal to stronger than Majin Buu. The worms, Ledgic, Mutchi-Mutchi, Muy or whatever, etc., etc. Incredible logic, isn't?

The only "incredible logic" here is that you'd jump to that conclusion in the first place.

Even if Rildo is as strong as Buu, Goku loses to him. End of story.

And he was clearly, clearly toying with the worms, Ledgic (who he gets serious against and beats), and Mutchi-Mutchi (who simply manages to catch him off-guard). As in, the show makes it overwhelmingly clear that Goku isn't taking those fights seriously.

From every single hint we're given, the only character in the space arc stronger than Freeza and Super Saiyan by a large degree is Rildo.

The strength errors in the space arc are non-existent. They're all over the place in the Super 17 arc, but the rest of the show is mostly clear.

[Senzu_Bean]

I like how you trying to explain those inconsistencies it only make GT looks even worse in my view.

[Cipher]

I like how you trying to explain those inconsistencies it only make GT looks even worse in my view.

I like how you apparently gave up on trying to explain why they're inconsistencies in the first place?

Do people just go into this show determined to have it make no sense? I'm not even a raging fanboy here; I admit that parts like the Super 17 arc are full of errors. But believe me when I say that everything else lines up fairly well.

Just one more time, for good measure, Goku's fights in the space arc:

Goku vs. Ledgic
Goku toys with Ledgic in base, goes Super Saiyan and wins. Ledgic is weaker than Super Saiyan.

Goku vs. Muuma
Is this even a fight? The characters mess around for a bit, and Goku wrangles them up in base. Muuma are weaker than base Goku.

Goku vs. Mutchi
Goku toys around but is clearly stronger. Goku gets caught in a strangle hold and is saved with a single blast from Super Saiyan Trunks. Mutchi is weaker than Super Saiyan.

Goku vs. Luud
Goku and Trunks are never physically outmatched, even in base. They keep him busy until they can find a way to free Pan. Luud is weaker than base Goku.

Goku vs. Sigma Force Cannon
Goku toys around in base, says he's going to get serious, and promptly kills them with a Kamehameha. Sigma Force Cannon is weaker than base Goku.

Goku vs. Rildo
Goku says Rildo is stronger than Majin Buu. After some foreplay, Goku gets his ass handed to him as a Super Saiyan 1 or 2. Rildo is stronger than Super Saiyan (2?) Goku.

Characters weaker than Super Saiyan Goku: 5

Characters stronger than Super Saiyan Goku: Rildo

This is confusing ... how?

[Senzu_Bean]

I like how you apparently gave up on trying to explain why they're inconsistencies in the first place?

What is the point?! Everybody know GT is like a giant hole, those whom don't admit it since the show aired aren't going to admit now.

But believe me when I say that everything else lines up fairly well.

The Super #17 ar... episodes are the least of GT problems, as are the power inconsistencies.

I'm out!

[Kaboom]

Goku says Rild is stronger than Majin Boo BEFORE either one of them transforms, after which Rild gets much stronger.

[Bussani]

Yeah, I guess we're all forgetting that this same immature Baby got blasted by 3 blasts and was seemingly put out of commission the very moment he started up. This same immature Baby took over Rildo and still got taken care of with a few blasts, you know, seeing how was still a baby at the time. He still survived. In the early episodes where Baby first appeared it was obvious that he wasn't very strong - or at least know how to control his power, but he was very resilient. He gets stronger with every host he takes over, hence the numerous times he flees when the heroes corner him at first.

That still doesn't explain how they seemed to know that 3 tiny blasts would stop Rildo. Did they know Baby was in him? Did they know Baby made him weaker? Weren't they even the slightest bit concerned that they should be putting some effort into it? And if they knew Baby was alive and inside him, shouldn't they...I don't know...have made sure to kill him this time? It just felt like the writers were bored of that particular planet and wanted to move on as quickly as possible. Even if you can come up with an excuse for this, it'd be so convoluted that I'm still going to have to chalk it up to lazy writing.

Btw, what's up with people thinking Goku, Pan, and Trunks should have LEFT the ship in the process of blasting off just to go back down to the planet and fight Rildo, who was basically invincible on M2? Common sense much? They had to jet, so obviously they're gonna get the hell outta there.

I don't think anyone said that.

It's funny, because the way you people talk on and on about all these BS reasons as to why GT isn't a very entertaining series is either:

1. Pure BS.
2. BS with a spice of hypocrisy on it.
3. Just statements that they can't even back up properly that makes one think that they never even watched GT to enjoy it but only watched it to find inconsistencies and plot holes.
4. That they did enjoy the show but are just riding bandwagons because they feel dumb for not noticing the plot holes and stuff.

Regardless of how much you're hardcore Toriyama-only opinions are, Dragon Ball GT is actually a very enjoyable show and saying that it's a downright horrible show, or not even a decent side-story are nothing but attempts at making hyperboles.

No one's allowed to dislike GT on your watch, huh? I mean, come on then, why do you like GT? Because it's fun? Because it captures the spirit of Dragon Ball? What if people don't agree with you and think you're spouting bullshit? I can't believe I'm on a forum where finding fault with something like Dragon Ball GT is "just riding bandwagons".

This thread is ridiculous. It feels like a dub vs sub debate.

[Cipher]

That still doesn't explain how they seemed to know that 3 tiny blasts would stop Rildo. Did they know Baby was in him? Did they know Baby made him weaker? Weren't they even the slightest bit concerned that they should be putting some effort into it? And if they knew Baby was alive and inside him, shouldn't they...I don't know...have made sure to kill him this time? It just felt like the writers were bored of that particular planet and wanted to move on as quickly as possible. Even if you can come up with an excuse for this, it'd be so convoluted that I'm still going to have to chalk it up to lazy writing.

They didn't know if it would kill him or not. NeoKing gave you a perfectly good explanation. They wanted to get the hell off the planet and Rildo was unstoppable there. They just wanted him to let go of their ship, dead or not, and they didn't stay behind to make sure he was gone for good because they're not galactic police or anything like it. They make this clear on Imecca.

I'm trying hard not to sound like an ass, but it seems like people are just picking at the smallest scenes they can now. And when I tried to have an actual debate about the strength issues with Senzu-Bean, all I got as a reply was, "Lol, GT sucks even more when you try to explain it." What's a guy to do? People are already determined to have the show be as nonsensical as possible.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Did you ever think that he just doesn't care enough to explain to you why he doesn't like GT? He doesn't need to prove to you that GT sucks. He doesn't need your premission to hate it.

[Cipher]

Did you ever think that he just doesn't care enough to explain to you why he doesn't like GT? He doesn't need to prove to you that GT sucks. He doesn't need your premission to hate it.

Ugh, holy hell.

If you still hate GT, that's fine. Just wanted to weigh in on those specific complaints.

The debate we were having (or which I was trying to have) was simply about specific details in the show. It had nothing to do with anyone liking or disliking it as a whole. Here's the abridged version:

"I don't like GT because of these errors."
"It's fine if you don't like it, but most of those aren't errors. Here's my reasoning."
"Lol GT sucks."

Which, you know, just makes it really hard to discuss the show at all. Since a lot of people's dislike stems from perceived errors, rather than anything subjective, you'd think a little time could be put into ironing them out. It's a little disheartening.

[Rocketman]

GT is more nonsensical/less internally consistent than DB or Z, but it's true that it's not so crippled by it as to be unwatchable.

It's the fact that all the inconsistency is specifically geared to showcase The Glory Of Godku that shoots GT through the kneecaps for me.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

No, they don't. The movies have inconsistencies when you compare them with the original work. GT on the other hand is inconsistent even with itself. The movies are above filler, when GT is even under filler. It goes like this:

Manga - Anime - Movies - Filler - ...

DBGT

What? You're being hypocritical. You're saying that Dragon Ball GT is bad because it has all these plot holes and inconsistencies, and then you go on to say that the movies are still good when they are way more guilty of the same crime.

See, this is the irrational hatred towards Dragon Ball GT that I was talking about. Logic and reason is being presented to you in regards to these so called "inconsistencies", and you just brush them off and go on to say: "lol GT still sucks!"

[Bussani]

They didn't know if it would kill him or not. NeoKing gave you a perfectly good explanation. They wanted to get the hell off the planet and Rildo was unstoppable there. They just wanted him to let go of their ship, dead or not, and they didn't stay behind to make sure he was gone for good because they're not galactic police or anything like it.

I'll just accept this one, then, I suppose... It still feels weird to me. They had Goku fighting him for at least an episode and then he just gets tossed aside rather anticlimactically. But then, that's true of a lot of the villains in the black star dragon ball arc.

[NeoKING]

I like how you apparently gave up on trying to explain why they're inconsistencies in the first place?

What is the point?! Everybody know GT is like a giant hole, those whom don't admit it since the show aired aren't going to admit now.

But believe me when I say that everything else lines up fairly well.

The Super #17 ar... episodes are the least of GT problems, as are the power inconsistencies.

I'm out!

Ironically, this is the perfect justification for my earlier post.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

I only like Dragonball GT for a good reason.

Super Saiyan 4 Transformation
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4

One of my favorite Super Saiyan transformations in the entire DB universe. I always skip to the start of episode Episode 35 and onwards to see Super Saiyan 4 fights, and they're really good in my opinion. For example, SSJ4 Goku Vs Nova Shenron, SSJ4 Goku Vs Naturon Shenron (Pan Absorbed), and SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta Vs Omega Shenron.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

I only like Dragonball GT for a good reason.

Super Saiyan 4 Transformation
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4

One of my most favorite super saiyan transformation in entire DB universe. I always skip to start on episode Episode 35 and onwards to see super saiyan 4 fights and there really good in my opinion for example SSJ4 Goku Vs Nova Shenron, SSJ4 Goku Vs Naturon Shenron (Pan Absorbed) and SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta Vs Omega Shenron.

Yeah! Everything before that is boring as shit.