deleted

[Bussani]

I believe in logarithmic power conversion. That 2x as strong would require 10x the ki.

It's funny you should say that, because I suggested something like that once (not very seriously, mind you) to explain the increasingly massive battle power boosts towards the end of the Freeza saga. Like I said, I don't take it very seriously, but I do think if you take kiri as a logarithmic scale it makes a bit of sense. After all, the truth is probably just that Toriyama didn't care if it made sense or not, so handwaving it as some sort of unknown logarithmic scale seems like a pretty good idea to me.

[astrallite]

Was 50x boost even stated in the manga? I don't remember it.
Android 19 http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7839/android19600.png

Trunks http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9661/trunks700.png

Goku vs 19 http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2609 ... oku800.png

Super Piccolo http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9114 ... olo850.png

Android 17/18 http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9843/androids900.png

Imperfect Cell http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4189 ... ll1000.png

Super Vegeta http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9229 ... ta1250.png

Super Saiyan Goku Cell Games http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7138/goku1400.png

Perfect cell http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/841/cell1500.png

Super Perfect Cell http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1121/cell20002.png

Super Saiyan 2 Gohan http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3426/gohan1800.png

Dabura http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/8234/dabura2300.png

Majin Vegeta http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/8904 ... ta2500.png

Fat Buu http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7264/fatbuu3000.png

Super Saiyan 3 Goku http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1433/gokuss330002.png

Super Saiyan 1 Gotenks http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6866/g ... j13000.png

Super Buu http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7712/superbuu3200.png

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2774 ... ks3200.png

Ultimate Gohan http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6537/m ... an3400.png

Gotenks Buu http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2365 ... ks3500.png

Kid Buu http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1084/kidbuu3700.png

Vegeto http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9535/vegitoss2.png




-Profuse amount of images converted to links by Moderator-

[p123]

This is a quote from Infamous666 from Neo, he is the guy who got me sold on this issue. Here he explains the issue.


Ok we need to start with SSJ3 Goku and where Piccolo thinks SSJ3 Goku is rated.

Piccolo questions Goku, "If you had gone all out, you could have beaten Boo, couldn't you have?"

Goku replies with "I don't know. Everything about Boo is so unbelievable."

Piccolo and his sharply intelligent self replies, "What do you mean you don't know? What was keeping you from going all out? Does it have to do with that energy thing?"

Goku replies, "No...I shouldn't be here right now...The Earth should be left tot he new generation...when I saw the power of the two kids I decided to risk it..."

Goku also tells Piccolo that the kids don't need the RoSaT before all of this.

Piccolo replies, "You sure are something aren't you."

I see no reason why Piccolo wouldn't think that Goku could have beaten Fat Boo.

In Piccolo's mind: SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo

SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) is formed. Piccolo says that his power is incredible, everyone else talks about how the fusion was a complete success. Piccolo then wants to test Gotenks's speed. Gotenks obliges and proves that his speed is sufficient imo. I think Piccolo is likely comparing his speed and power to SSJ3 Goku's.

Also, the fact that Goku knew the kids wouldn't need RoSaT training and that they could defeat Fat Boo shows to me that Goku has a good understanding of the dance, and that he knew SSJ Gotenks without RoSaT training > Fat Boo.

IMO, SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) > Fat Boo

In comparison with SSJ3 Goku, I'll just put them as roughly equals. I think there is some grounds for rating SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) higher than SSJ3 Goku. The main reason is that Goku told Piccolo that he told Fat Boo (he actually never did it though) that someone stronger than him would come to fight him. Also, the others were not aware that SSJ3 Goku could have beaten Fat Boo imo and everyone is like, "he can defeat Fat Boo!" This may be simply attributed to them banking on Goku's word that Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo. Also, Piccolo may have thought that Goku needed to go all out to defeat Fat Boo. I find this to be the most interesting debate.

SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) ~= SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo

Now for Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT).

Piccolo sees Super Boo and realizes the kids need to go into the RoSaT. He never says anything about a change in the size of ki but notes that Super Boo's body is now "better suited for battle". I think he is fearing the worst here and estimating how much better Fat Boo would be if he was "in shape" like Super Boo is.

After Gotenks reaches SSJ3 in the RoSaT, Trunks says that they could fight Super Boo to a standstill with their normal fusion. IMO, this is referring to their base fusion. Goten laughs in agreement, so I take it as Goten also thinking the same thing. Goten is the same person who noted that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Then Piccolo senses Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) and says that he might have a chance against Super Boo. Base Gotenks goes to kick Super Boo and it has no effect. Gotenks thinks to himself, that should have done more, etc.

From all of this, I come to the conclusion that they all underrated Super Boo and that they all rated Super Boo ~= Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT). Vegeta laughed off Fat Boo's ki and Goku replied with, "but there is something weird about the ki". Gotenks can be read fine. Boo has not been read fine in the past. It would also set a new precedent for anyone in the series for Piccolo to just be in the moment and overrate Gotenks's power multiple times.

So I come to the conclusion:

Super Boo >> Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) ~= Super Boo (estimated power) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) ~= SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo

To answer the topic, imo:

Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT)

[Bussani]

Was 50x boost even stated in the manga? I don't remember it.

No. It's only mentioned in the guides. Toriyama said in an interview that he originally planned the boost to be only x10, but it didn't seem like enough, and now it's ended up as x50. Of course, as some people point out, that could only mean that Goku became x50 stronger the first time he used it on Namek--that is, there's nothing saying that the boost is always x50. It's anyone's guess whether it is or isn't, to be honest.

PS: What's with all the pictures...?

[Kaboom]

Merged the SSj3 Goku vs Base Gotenks thread with this one. p123, aside from posting your own fanon lists in the Fanworks section's thread, I wholeheartedly recommend keeping them all in one place.

[p123]

I think I'm a little confused. We can't put up VS threads? That one isn't going into PLs at all it's more of an A>B situation.

[Fox666]

Why is it a plot hole, if it's in the actual plot? I think plot holes is an unneccesary term. I generally have found many ways to explain these supposed plot holes that is far better than just calling them a plot hole. If you throw one at me, I will show you what I mean.

You CAN explain any plot hole in any series. That doesn't mean they are not plot holes!

Frink: "Yes, over here, [...] in Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!
Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
Frink: Yes, alright, yes, in episode AG04-"
Lucy Lawless: Wizard!
- The Simpsons, "Treehouse of Horror X"

It actually makes sense if you ask me, because just multiplying your power 400 fold is just ridicolous, I mean your body is going to be uber strained. You can't just multiply your power a million times over, your base is still your base of operations, and there is only so much it could deal with...

I understand what you mean. But it's Toriyama own fault for making ridiculous powerfull transformations. And he just ignored it as far the series progressed.

[p123]

Check out that post I put up. The Gotenks vs Goku thing... It's some really good stuff, a guy named Infamous666 wrote it up , and he has me convinced. It's too bad it can't get it's own thread, I think the topic is really never looked at too deeply, and since this guy explained the issue to me I never looked back.

[astrallite]

PS: What's with all the pictures...?

I like these power levels better

[Fox666]

Goku vs Fusion Boo, a brief story

So I come to the conclusion:

Super Boo >> Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) ~= Super Boo (estimated power) > SSJ Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT) ~= SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo

To answer the topic, imo:

Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ3 Goku > Base Gotenks (Pre-RoSaT)

I think I did not understand that very well.


As far I remember of the manga, Gotenks gone all wild against Fat Boo and everybody worried that he should have turned Super Saiyan. Am I wrong?

Also, Piccolo also was worried that the kids did not turn Super Saiyan before the fusion.


I don't really don't get all that analysis about Gotenks base power... =/

[p123]

I would post this in the power level thread, but since the cards are brought up here along with the killi system here you go, killi conversion time!


SSJ Vegetto 2,400,000
Buuhan 1,400,000
Buutenks 1,160,000
Gohan 800,000
SSJ3 Gotenks 600,000
Super Buu 560,000
SSJ Gotenks 200,000
Base Gotenks 80,000
Kid Buu 70,000
SSJ Gotenks 63,600
SSJ3 Goku 63,600
Fat Buu 47,700
Evil Buu 27,825
Base Gotenks 25,440
Good Buu 20,000
SSJ2 Majin/Goku 15,900
SSJ2 Kid Gohan 14,400
SPC 13,600
SSJ2 Vegeta 13,200
SSJ2 Teen Gohan 10,800
Perfect Cell 8,000
SSJ Maj/Goku 5,300
SSJ Kid Gohan 4,800
SSJ Vegeta 4,400
SSJ Goku ( Cell ) 4,000
Dabura 3,800
SSJ Teen Gohan 3,600
Base Vegeta 880
Yakon 800
SemiCellFP 800
Base Goku 800
Android 17 300
Android 18 280
SSJ Goku Namek 120
Freeza 112
Android 20 96
Android 19 88
King Cold 80



Killi conversion. Whacha think?

[astrallite]

That's a hell of a lot of kiri. I always figured at this juncture of the story we were at the point of diminishing returns.

I subscribe to logarithmic power conversion personally. I mean, the top end of your powers would be enough to punch someone out of orbit, and that's something we just don't see. I think you are thinking of the scouter battle power system, where we definitely don't see a linear increase in combat ability compared to the number score. I personally see even Vegetto no more than 10,000 kiri.

But if we just go by a linear scale, then Fat Buu would be 8,000 kiri. I base this on the fact that Dabura states it takes more than 4,000 kiri to defeat him, which I would put at Super Perfect Cell level. Gohan at SS2 was able to power Fat Buu to over half of his power level.

[p123]

Yea I like your method, but seeing how I believe in a 5x boost for MSSJ, the kiri system wouldn't work that way for me. As IMO Goku was boosted what over 3.25x , and I think he was suppressed at that reading, I think the boost translates over the same. So I don't neccessarily agree with your theory, although I like it and think it's interesting.


I think Kiri could possibly be just a super strong power scouter. As in a power around a million is just really weak and doesn't even really show up on the scouter.

As in 1 million = 8.8 kiri.






@ Fox666


Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu > Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku


Which issue are you unsure of? There are plenty...




Also, Dabura 4,000 kiri in from the anime.
Like Badibi's system is more designed for finding strong fighters.

[astrallite]

I was looking (at / through / in) Volume 38 and base Goku manages to deflect Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta's blast with a cross-arm block.

So much for those multiplers.

[p123]

Lol, obviously Vegeta's intent wasn't to kill, more to let Goku know he was serious. Besides it was SSJ Majin Vegeta not SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, which IMO shows SSJ as a 5x boost more realistic in this situation than a 50x boost. So I come up on top if ya ask me. lol.

[Herms]

Was 50x boost even stated in the manga? I don't remember it.

No, but it's basically derived from how Goku using Kaio-ken x20 couldn't defeat Freeza at only 50% of his full power, while as a Super Saiyan Goku beat 100% full power Freeza. So Super Saiyan Goku is over twice as strong as he was when multiplying his power by 20, making him somewhere over 40 times as powerful as normal. x50 is the number Daizenshuu 7 settled upon.

[p123]

Herms, I heard you were working on translating the entire manga. Did you ever finish that project, or was that just a rumor?

[dbgtFO]

Herms, I heard you were working on translating the entire manga. Did you ever finish that project, or was that just a rumor?

I think he had a thread, where he compared his translation of the manga to the viz version, I believe it hasn't gone past the 5th volume yet...

Although a 50* boost isn't implied for every transformation, neither is a decreasing boost, if you do have some proper counters to this argument feel free to put them up, I seriously doubt, there are any...

[Senzu_Bean]

Massive amount of links!!!

I like those, with a few exceptions. What are them?

[dbgtFO]

Honestly those guides cause more problems than solving them. Because they spout out illogical information, which people tout as " real " and then people try to find ways to explain why they are real, and why even though illogical, are the truth.

You could pretty much say that about the manga too.

Herms was the Saibaimen stated to be above 1200 or were they flat out stated, as being 1200 precisely in the original text?