I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

[MetaMoss]

Well, I did the best I could, but I can't redeem myself after a topic like this.
It's time for my departure. I won't post at DaizenshuuEX anymore, because people think I'm SuperForteX from GameFAQs.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw down my two cents one more time. It's stupid to call Capt. Ginyu a human, and you know it, so why don't you just admit it?

I'm never wrong
Ban me.

If you're not SuperForteX from GameFAQs, then could you tell us the inspiration for the username that you and the "other SuperForteX" had?

[VegettoEX]

Folks, please keep it on-topic. As I stated before, nothing anyone writes elsewhere is held against them here on this forum so long as they follow the rules which they agreed to prior to registration.

The only reason I even brought it up in the first place was to put the entire conversation in its necessary context.

[dbgtFO]

Back on topic.
Although Viz allows characters to refer to Saiyans as humans(translating the japanese text correctly in those instances) at the very end of the last volume they make Goku say this:

From Volume 42/Viz 26/VizBig 9 Ch. 518/324
(Talking about Uub)
Vegeta: Strong enough for you? That's impossible...unless he's an alien.
Goku: Nope. He's human.
Side note: The danish version has it like that as well.

So it seems that Viz are also of the belief that aliens aren't human, making it a little inconsistent with all the Buu Arc quotes where Kaioshin or Kibito said Saiyans are humans.

[Herms]

From Volume 42/Viz 26/VizBig 9 Ch. 518/324
(Talking about Uub)
Vegeta: Strong enough for you? That's impossible...unless he's an alien.
Goku: Nope. He's human.
Side note: The danish version has it like that as well.

That's another instance where it's "Earthling" (Chikyuu-jin) in Japanese.

[SuperForteX]

It's only a matter of time... that's why I requested the ban. I'm eventually going to slip up just that 'one more time' and get canned. I don't like the fact that no one agrees with me, it's like everyone here bands together to oppose everything I say. This ningen thing just broke the camel's back, that's all. Oh well Maybe the fact I'm actively requesting a ban and sitll posting off-topic will finally seal the deal. I mean, look at this topic... such an outpouring of agression and negativity, it really has no place on a DB board... like... at all. It's for the best of all if I just go my own seperate way now. I realize I can just leave without making an off topic post like this, and I realize not many will care that I'm choosing to leave, but... I'd really like some closure. I think a ban would be best but if you don't want to give it out, then I suppose all I can do is just shuffle off.

I'll probably be back under a new name in time anyway.

[dbgtFO]

I don't like the fact that no one agrees with me, it's like everyone here bands together to oppose everything I say.

Agree with you on what? That it's stupid that Saiyans and Ginyu are considered humans? Maybe it is. But does its stupidity mean that it's automatically wrong?
No!
That's the point I'm trying to get across.

And starting this thread like you did was not a good idea, if you wanted people to agree with you. And later on saying that you are never wrong is not the best idea either, if you want people to hear you out and can't handle people not agreeing with your viewpoint as you seem to imply.

[Herms]

I mean, look at this topic... such an outpouring of agression and negativity, it really has no place on a DB board... like... at all.

I take it you've forgotten that this entire thread started because you felt the need, apropos of nothing here, to call the people on this board "trollishly stupid" and "asinine" for accurately referencing an aspect of the original that you personally don't like.

I'll probably be back under a new name in time anyway.

That's against forum rules. If you want to turn over a new leaf, callously disregarding the rules really isn't the way to do it.

[Eddie]

^ Yeah, but the rules are only written that way because you wrote them. C'mon, "Herms", the jig is up.

[Bussani]

it's like everyone here bands together to oppose everything I say.

but when everyone else in the whole world is wrong except you: Maybe you're actually the one who is wrong.

[Freeza Heika]

It's only a matter of time... that's why I requested the ban.

I'll probably be back under a new name in time anyway.

If you don't want to be here, don't be here.

Otherwise, you are an attention whore. Stop it. Stop and enjoy the fucking community for what it is.

[Godo]

I mean, look at this topic... such an outpouring of agression and negativity, it really has no place on a DB board... like... at all.

You're really twisting things if you call Saiyans, Namekians, Freeza, and all other alien races 'humans'. I saw a silly post about this on the other DB board, and quite frankly--you guys must know, somewhere deep down inside, how trollishly stupid it sounds claiming that all of these races are considered 'human', because they're described with the term 'ningen'. How assinine.

What, you started it, you ludicrous fool. I dun slit my wrists for you.

Prove to me that they're humans.

We did, and it didn't flow with you, it seems.

[Casual Matt]

Guys I don't mean to play mini-mod, but VegettoEX already asked us to keep on topic, so can we try to watch the posts that border on personal attacks? Probably not helping, is all I'm saying.

I think the problem here is that some people may be forcing the English definition of the word "human" onto the Japanese word "ningen".

No, not so much. Typically ningen is used pretty much the same way "human" is in English. There are lots of manga, anime, and whatnot where ningen refers exclusively to people from Earth despite the presence of aliens who look and act just like humans. So DB extending the term to aliens is somewhat unusual, though not unprecedented.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

So the Dragon Ball world is just odd like that.

I also find the fact that there are two SuperForteXs that both think Herms is a terrible translator (and/or is VegettoEX in a disguise) quite entertaining, in a train wreck sort of way.

Although it does call fourth a hilarious mental image of Herms just being VegettoEX wearing glasses and a fake mustace.

Of course that would make the podcast episodes with both of them raise a few eyebrows.


Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think another aspect of this is that the word "human" isn't used in casual conversation in English the same way it is in the Dragon World.

For example, you would likely use a phrase like "I am a reasonable man" as opposed to "I am a reasonable human" even though the essentially mean the same thing.

Same deal with the word person. It feels more appropriate because the word is thrown around more in English. That's really what makes it seem like a better translation as opposed to any kind of actual convention.

[Herms]

Something that occurred to me is that while some fans have trouble with the idea of people from space in DB being "humans", the same doesn't seem to apply to non-human animals. So people find the idea of Saiyans being humans strange, but I've never seen anyone protest to the Saiyans' big hairy transformation being labeled as Oozaru or Great Ape. And the thing Ginyu ultimately switches bodies with is described both in the series and by fans as a "frog", not a "frogoid alien". Same thing with the giant fish or crabs on Namek. So calling an ape/frog/crab/fish-like creature from space an ape/frog/crab/fish is OK, but calling a human-like creature from space a "human" seems wrong. Kind of interesting.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think another aspect of this is that the word "human" isn't used in casual conversation in English the same way it is in the Dragon World.

For example, you would likely use a phrase like "I am a reasonable man" as opposed to "I am a reasonable human" even though the essentially mean the same thing.

I wouldn't say the term is used casually in DB either. Maybe it seems that way because this thread is focusing on all the lines where it's used, but these are vastly outnumbered by lines where characters are just called hito (person), yatsu (guy or dude), and the like. People in the series really don't casually refer to themselves as ningen. Most of the lines I highlighted in my thread on the subject are examples of people contrasting the human to the nonhuman (which in DB's case means animals, gods, demons, androids, or robots), which aren't the kind of statements that typically come up in casual conversation, and where you'd almost have to use "human" when translating them into English for them to make any sense (or maybe "humanoid", "mortal", or "those among mankind" like in Simmons' subtitles, but these are also not terms generally used in casual conversation).

Ginyu's line about being "the kind of human" who can control his battle power might seem like him casually using the word, but the line is not standard way of saying things in Japanese. It's more complicated than it needs to be; Ginyu could have just said "I can control my battle power" and it would have sounded a lot more natural. The fact that Toriyama bothers to use "type of human" here is, I think, because he's trying to emphasis that the ability to control one's battle power is a racial trait rather than a skill that can be learned by all. We see this earlier when Ginyu notes that races who can control their battle power without transforming are rare. It's similar to how Zarbon tells Vegeta that Freeza is also a "transforming-type alien", rather than just saying he can transform (which is what Viz simplifies the line to anyway). Again, I think this unusually complicated phrasing is to emphasis that transforming is an ability only available to certain species.

[Casual Matt]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think another aspect of this is that the word "human" isn't used in casual conversation in English the same way it is in the Dragon World.

For example, you would likely use a phrase like "I am a reasonable man" as opposed to "I am a reasonable human" even though the essentially mean the same thing.

I wouldn't say the term is used casually in DB either. Maybe it seems that way because this thread is focusing on all the lines where it's used, but these are vastly outnumbered by lines where characters are just called hito (person), yatsu (guy or dude), and the like. People in the series really don't casually refer to themselves as ningen.

Okay, that's interesting then.

So would you say something like Ginyu's line was just due to that particular character's style of speaking? Or did Toriyama write it that way specifically to refer to that character as human?