Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
hleV wrote:I think that's an addition from Viz, I can't find it on Strength Checker.
No, it's in the Japanese original too.
Although to be really, really nitpicky, there it's more like "make me fight seriously" rather than "make me use my full power". The word used (本気/honki) is typically translated as "serious/seriously", and it's the same word Vegetto uses earlier when he mockingly tells Boo to take the fight more seriously. See also back in the Saiyan arc when Goku and Vegeta start to fight, and Goku says Vegeta isn't serious yet but is still stronger and faster than him. Usually when a translation says "full power", the Japanese word in question is zen-ryoku (zen=full, ryoku=power, simply enough). Eigher that or they just used the actual English phrase "full power".
<\irrelevant aside>
Anyway, I really ought to add that quote into the Strength Checker. I'd like to claim that I considered it redundant next to the "I can defeat you with just my legs!" line...but the truth is I probably just overlooked it.
Darkprince410 wrote:No, true fusions don't work with the two personalities being there. Vegetto's mind is his own, and while he may have Goku and Vegeta's memories, his thought processes are his own. Same with Gotenks. Any cases of seeing one personality being dominant comes from non-canon stuff, namely movies and GT.
His reasoning in general was to transform to gain an advantage, but as you and others have pointed out, the anime makes it seem like he was strong enough to do so in just his base form, thus making the transformation irrelevant. I was saying there wasn't a plausible "anime-only" reason for him transforming.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.(about Vegetto's mind that is)
khalildh wrote:I will go with the BoG explanation.
Base Vegetto is slighty stronger than 100% Freeza and his Super Saiyan is able to toy with Boo as a piece of candy.
In terms of manga power level I would put his base at around 200 million and his Super Saiyan upwards of 10 Billion.
I like this explanation because it doesn't bloat the power scaling for Super Saiyan transformations and still leaves Base Vegetto in the sam realm as a Super Saiyan.
I'm not entirely sure how you come to the conclusion that base Vegetto is only slightly stronger than full power Freeza, but ok.
Basically I have Base Gotenks stronger than Base Goku, but weaker than every SSJ1 both pre and post Rosat. Gotenks SSJ is basically an over-boosted SSJ and within the same realm of power as SSJ2.
For Vegito's Base it honestly cannot be gauged properly for 2 reasons. 1, It isn't used in Combat. 2, We don't know how astronomically stronger SSJ Vegetto is to Buuhan. I put Candy Vegito 2x stronger Buuhan on the low scale, which is why I can say that Base Vegito doesn't need to be very strong.
To be honest though if you believe the Fusion multiplier is something really big, you can ignore what BoG says about Goku being weaker than Frieza, and just assume SSJ Vegito is as strong as he needs to be. If you do assume all of that than you could put Base Vegito stronger than Boohan. I would rather just keep everything low if it isn't specifically mentioned.
Base Vegetto can be almost what ever you want it to be. There are many cases, but as long as SSJ Vegetto is above Boohan, practically anything would be fine.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kakashi wrote:
Did you fall on your head when you were a baby? BOG says Base Goku < Freeza and not Base Vegetto and that's also wrong
There's no need for rude and condescending comments like that. Besides, his belief has Vegetto above Freeza in his base form, and while I personally don't agree with it, there's nothing expressly said in the manga to say that he's wrong. If you feel he's wrong, then just give factual evidence. Don't be all "blah blah you're stupid blah blah that's wrong".
In the Anime base Vegetto is not even scratched by Buu's attacks. He could have beaten Buuhan just in his base, but the Vegeta inside him wanted to power up to show how powerful he really is.
The anime likes to embellish things, though no anime-only reason for why he transformed is given. However, the whole notion of one of the personalities being responsible doesn't really pan out, since it's more or less been established that the fusion is a new entity, and doesn't have the actual personalities of the two fused actually in there, per say. His mind is Vegetto's, not part Goku's and part Vegeta's.
As for the actual reason why he transformed, it wasn't just because he wanted to in order to show off. He wanted to in order to be so superior to Buu in terms of power that Buu wouldh ave no choice but to absorb him, so that he could try to find Gohan and the others and free them.
Base Goku in the Boo Arc is much stronger than Frieza. So Base Gotenks is weaker than Frieza? I guess Krillin was just joking when he said he might bea Boo
Kakashi wrote:
Base Goku in the Boo Arc is much stronger than Freeza. So Base Gotenks is weaker than Freeza? I guess Krillin was just joking when he said he might bea Boo
Considering that Battle of the Gods basically says otherwise, and that there's nothing in the Buu Saga that says that Goku or any of the other non-fused Saiya-jin are stronger than Freeza in their base forms, there's no basis for that statement.
Isn't Super Saiyan Vegetto supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku? Couldn't you base Vegetto's base forms power on what would have to be multiplied to reach SSJ4 Goku's power?
AGentlemanSaiyan wrote:Isn't Super Saiyan Vegetto supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku? Couldn't you base Vegetto's base forms power on what would have to be multiplied to reach SSJ4 Goku's power?
Kakashi wrote:Boo Arc Base Saiyans shocked Kaioshin who can one shot Freeza. BOG is wrong
Goku also shocked Muten Roshi in the first arc. Does that make Goku stronger than Roshi? Or, Goten impressed Gohan, and Trunks impressed Vegeta. Does that make Goten & Trunks stronger than Gohan & Vegeta?
Kaioshin was impressed with the Saiyans because they were extraordinary strong for mortals.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Kakashi wrote:Base Goku in the Boo Arc is much stronger than Freeza.
He's not.
Boo Arc Base Saiyans shocked Kaioshin who can one shot Freeza. BOG is wrong
Dunno how you people have Boo Arc Base Goku weaker than Freeza with the monstrous gaps in the Cell Saga
BOG Goku is also >> Boo Arc Goku
He repeatedly said that he was shocked because he wasn't aware of beings that powerful in the mortal realm. His comments were never ones of them being stronger than he was, just that he couldn't believe they were that strong in general, especially since he was repeatedly underestimating them beforehand. He overestimated Babi-di's men and likewise underestimated Goku and the others, but that still doesn't mean that he was weaker than they were.
AGentlemanSaiyan wrote:Isn't Super Saiyan Vegetto supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku? Couldn't you base Vegetto's base forms power on what would have to be multiplied to reach SSJ4 Goku's power?
I personally have Vegito = SSJ4 Goku.
For me its the following.
Base Vegito = Mystic Gohan
Super Vegito = SSJ4 Goku
SSJ2 Vegito = Bills
SSJ3 Vegito > Omega Shenron
SS3 Vegetto > Omega is actually completely wrong, since Syn is stronger than SS4 Goku by a LOT and Omega is ten times stronger than that, while SS Vegetto is only a bit stronger than SS4 Goku and SS3 is eight times stronger than that.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
And thats also your opinion. We have no solid evidence to prove either of our theories so you stick with what you believe and ill stick with what I believe.
KentalSSJ6 wrote:And thats also your opinion. We have no solid evidence to prove either of our theories so you stick with what you believe and ill stick with what I believe.
No, that's not a theory. Those are facts stated in the series and in the guides.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
AGentlemanSaiyan wrote:Isn't Super Saiyan Vegetto supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku? Couldn't you base Vegetto's base forms power on what would have to be multiplied to reach SSJ4 Goku's power?
I personally have Vegito = SSJ4 Goku.
For me its the following.
Base Vegito = Mystic Gohan
Super Vegito = SSJ4 Goku
SSJ2 Vegito = Bills
SSJ3 Vegito > Omega Shenron
SS3 Vegetto > Omega is actually completely wrong, since Syn is stronger than SS4 Goku by a LOT and Omega is ten times stronger than that, while SS Vegetto is only a bit stronger than SS4 Goku and SS3 is eight times stronger than that.
Just sayain' that implies SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Mystic Gohan which I am in favor of.
Base Vegito = 1
Mystic Gohan = 1
Super Vegito = 50
SSJ4 Goku = 50
SSJ3 Goku = 5
SSJ2 Goku = 1.25
Anyway I don't see Base Vegito anywhere close to Mystic Gohan, because the manga does not imply it all.
Last edited by khalildh on Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
