What If Toriyama Tried To Make DBZ Deep?

[Rocketman]

You don't always have to like it deep
In fact sometimes that's not right to do
Sometimes you gotta have some fun
And fucking let all your hangups go

Sometimes you got to stop't
Sometimes you got to just drop't
Sometimes you gotta say, "hey"

I'm gonna watch this dumb show
I'm gonna stop my bitching
It's just a chillax fight toon
Either like it, or doon't

[thatdbzguy]

And also again, this self-loathing schtick is getting really old.

I'm not even loathing myself.

So..."Mature" fans hate Cell Arc eh?

I'm 26 and I like Cell. Actually the Cell Games are my favorite part of Z in the manga.

Likely due to some nostalgic attachment to the Cell arc.

[TheAldella]

You don't always have to like it deep
In fact sometimes that's not right to do
Sometimes you gotta have some fun
And fucking let all your hangups go

Sometimes you got to stop't
Sometimes you got to just drop't
Sometimes you gotta say, "hey"

I'm gonna watch this dumb show
I'm gonna stop my bitching
It's just a chillax fight toon
Either like it, or doon't

Clever dick.

[Gonstead]

Something I just want to know. Exactly what version of the show did you watch? Japanese? English? Kai?

[thatdbzguy]

Something I just want to know. Exactly what version of the show did you watch? Japanese? English? Kai?

All of the above. And I read the manga.

[TheGreatness25]

The story could have been deep. It has all of the elements. Mystical objects, adventures, mysterious past, death, world domintion, etc. The thing that would benefit the show is that it would be much better thought out, so there would be less cop-outs. "Oh no! I don't know how we're going to defeat him! I can't even lay a finger on him! He is so much stronger than me! *whooosh* I have transformed. I am now much more powerful than him." "Oh no!!! He is so much more powerful than me! I can't even lay a finger on him! *whoosh* Wow! Something happened to him and now he's weaker! I can defeat him now!" "Oh nooo! We're stuck together forever! *whooosh* Wow! Somehow we were conveniently separated for reasons unknown! Yay!" Those are cop-outs. Happens way too often. Plus, people would have less to debate about.

[Flame Dragon]

Look at it this way, it's like if you took the original Legend of Zelda and Majora's mask. One is simple, mindless and fun whereas the other is deep and thought provoking. It's a matter of opinion. Some people are going to really enjoy it exactly the way it was and others will always have been wanting more from it. It's like Gyt Kaliba said, Toriyama just isn't used to writing deep and meaningful stories. If that's what you're looking for, you're better off looking elsewhere.

Hey i like both of those! Ocarina and Majora <3

On topic, you need to be a really good writer to try to make something "deep", or else it will fall flat on his face.
Just take a look at Naruto and Bleach, they tried so hard to be "philosophical" and shit, and they failed so hard in my opinion.

[ABED]

"Oh no! I don't know how we're going to defeat him! I can't even lay a finger on him! He is so much stronger than me! *whooosh* I have transformed. I am now much more powerful than him."

Are you implying that Super Saiyan is a cop out? Because it was set up very early and hardly comes out of nowhere.

Majora's mask was thought provoking? I just thought it was impossible and aggravating.

[TheGreatness25]

No, but Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and fusion is a cop-out.

[ABED]

No, but Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and fusion is a cop-out.

How?

[Wibbs]

No, but Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and fusion is a cop-out.

Super Saiyan 2 doesn't come out of nowhere, they talk about ascending beyond a Super Saiyan for almost half of the Cell saga.

[TheGreatness25]

Oh Vegeta has ascended! No, wait he's too bulky. Let's be Super Saiyan in our natural state, that way we'll be really comfortable! Yeahhh! Nope, not good enough, miraculously and conveniently I shall turn Super Saiyan 2 at the right time so my friends don't get killed! Then somehow, "Oh they're too powerful for you guys at your Super Saiyan levels... Wait... You mean during the seven years you are now Super Saiyan 2s and the gods don't even know about it? WOW!"

Fusion: "Oh no! We can't lay a finger on him! You and I both fighting him has no effect! He's just too powerful for us!!! I know! We'll just combine our bodies! But it won't be just like combining our bodies, it'll give us this magical power boost that will make us even more powerful than him! Yaaa! And conveniently, it's so easy to do!!!"

It's not that the transformations are not referenced and thought of last minute. It's that the power boost that comes from them is so lazy. It destroys the fight. They go from being so underwhelmed where they can't do anything against their opponent, to all of the sudden standing there with a stoic look on their face as their opponent frantically tries to hurt them in the least. How does the transformation know to boost them to that point? Then of course, the villains come out with their own super secret transformation. "Whatttt??? You're a Super Saiyan 1/2??? Let me show you my 100% full powerrrr!!!" Then the gap closes a bit, then you realize that their 100% form is still useless. That's like the DBZ formula.

[Wibbs]

Oh Vegeta has ascended! No, wait he's too bulky. Let's be Super Saiyan in our natural state, that way we'll be really comfortable! Yeahhh! Nope, not good enough, miraculously and conveniently I shall turn Super Saiyan 2 at the right time so my friends don't get killed! Then somehow, "Oh they're too powerful for you guys at your Super Saiyan levels... Wait... You mean during the seven years you are now Super Saiyan 2s and the gods don't even know about it? WOW!"

Fusion: "Oh no! We can't lay a finger on him! You and I both fighting him has no effect! He's just too powerful for us!!! I know! We'll just combine our bodies! But it won't be just like combining our bodies, it'll give us this magical power boost that will make us even more powerful than him! Yaaa! And conveniently, it's so easy to do!!!"

It's not that the transformations are not referenced and thought of last minute. It's that the power boost that comes from them is so lazy. It destroys the fight. They go from being so underwhelmed where they can't do anything against their opponent, to all of the sudden standing there with a stoic look on their face as their opponent frantically tries to hurt them in the least. How does the transformation know to boost them to that point? Then of course, the villains come out with their own super secret transformation. "Whatttt??? You're a Super Saiyan 1/2??? Let me show you my 100% full powerrrr!!!" Then the gap closes a bit, then you realize that their 100% form is still useless. That's like the DBZ formula.

But Gotenks couldn't beat Buu as a Super Saiyan 3, Trunks and Gohan were unable to beat the androids as Super Saiyans, Vegeta and Trunks couldn't beat Cell in their respective forms. Powering up isn't always the key to victory, just the most frequently used. As for the fusion thing, I can't really see where you're coming from. It wasn't a new transformation, just a way of bettering the one they already had. I wouldn't say it's a magical boost in power, if you take two half saiyans with roughly the same power and combine them, their power will combine as well.

[Flame Dragon]

"Oh no! I don't know how we're going to defeat him! I can't even lay a finger on him! He is so much stronger than me! *whooosh* I have transformed. I am now much more powerful than him."

Are you implying that Super Saiyan is a cop out? Because it was set up very early and hardly comes out of nowhere.

Majora's mask was thought provoking? I just thought it was impossible and aggravating.

Majora's Mask is an harder game than Ocarina of Time, but still easy enough to complete easily if you master it, that's why i recommend it only for veterans.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I can understand disliking the uneven back and forth on fights (though a lot of people, myself included, find it exciting sometimes), but why wouldn't fusion make them stronger? It only makes sense that two people combined into one would be better than either of them separately.

And really, it's not the first time that concept was introduced in Dragon Ball, if you think about it. The execution is different, but think back to Tenshinhan's multi-form technique. It has it's uses, but it's major flaw was that he was much weaker when in multiple bodies. Fusion is different in that it's combining two different people rather than being a split of the same person, but the principle there is still the same - they/he are much stronger when united than they are apart.

[ABED]

Oh Vegeta has ascended! No, wait he's too bulky. Let's be Super Saiyan in our natural state, that way we'll be really comfortable! Yeahhh! Nope, not good enough, miraculously and conveniently I shall turn Super Saiyan 2 at the right time so my friends don't get killed! Then somehow, "Oh they're too powerful for you guys at your Super Saiyan levels... Wait... You mean during the seven years you are now Super Saiyan 2s and the gods don't even know about it? WOW!"

That makes complete sense to me. Vegeta was looking for another level of power, but Goku realized the limitation of that transformation and used his head when training. That's good writing. Gohan's hidden power was well established. Granted, I don't like that no matter how many times it's brought out, he always seems to have more, but you get the point.

Fusion: "Oh no! We can't lay a finger on him! You and I both fighting him has no effect! He's just too powerful for us!!! I know! We'll just combine our bodies! But it won't be just like combining our bodies, it'll give us this magical power boost that will make us even more powerful than him! Yaaa! And conveniently, it's so easy to do!!!"

So not how that went. Fusion is like, well... fusion. It combines elements and makes it even more powerful. It's not conveniently easy to do. They don't get it right the first time, or even the second.

[TheGreatness25]

Fusion is a cop-out because when ganging up on the villain together, the fighters are useless. But when they fuse, they get this insane power boost that just completely overcompinsates for that.

Anyway, yes, the cop-out is not so much the transormation, but the fact that it boosts them so much, that conveniently the fight is pretty much over.

[ABED]

Fusion is a cop-out because when ganging up on the villain together, the fighters are useless. But when they fuse, they get this insane power boost that just completely overcompinsates for that.

Anyway, yes, the cop-out is not so much the transormation, but the fact that it boosts them so much, that conveniently the fight is pretty much over.

Because working together isn't the same as having a combined battle power.

[Wibbs]

Are you implying that Super Saiyan is a cop out? Because it was set up very early and hardly comes out of nowhere.

Majora's mask was thought provoking? I just thought it was impossible and aggravating.

Majora's mask is just another Zelda game on the surface and while I do think think at times there can be some heavy implications to darker subjects, it's far too over analyzed by it's fans. It isn't deep in the philosophical sense, it's deep in a "hey the guys your playing as are dead, but you didn't hear it from us" kind of way. I guess you could say it's a little transparent about it.

[90sDBZ]

I don't think it's the type of story that should be too deep. I like it to be dark and intense sometimes but there's no need for it to be making some sort of deep and profound statement other than "Never give in". The King Piccolo saga did dark very well. It was pretty damn dark without getting up its own ass with melodrama. It was just as dark as Dragonball should ever be. Any darker than that and the show would lose it's charm and simplicity.