What are the power levels gt characters on a scale

[Hitiro]

I have to ask.

1) How would Bebi know he is stronger than Vegetto when he wasn't around when Vegetto existed?
2) As far as I'm aware it is not possible to sense your own Ki, only others can do that for you. Hence Goku demonstrating his power in front of Karin and asking him to compare his Ki to Cell's. So why is it that when Goku says "This is the strongest Ki I've ever sensed" it includes Vegetto when Goku was Vegetto at the time so there would be no way he could sense his own Ki? The strongest Ki Goku would have ever sensed would be Boohan in that case. Same for Vegeta when he was fused with Goku as Vegetto.

So unless you can tell me these things then I would have to say it is entirely possible for Bebi to be below SSJ Vegetto.

[rereboy]

You are interpreting that line like it has no other valid interpretations. The truth is that the line not really clear at all regarding what he exactly means. The emphasis of the "now" could be something as simple as him making it clear that he's even stronger than before, which he already considered the greatest saiyan power.

I don't see the point of drawing concrete conclusions from unclear lines.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

1) How would Bebi know he is stronger than Vegetto when he wasn't around when Vegetto existed?

He gets the memories of people he's infested inside of.

2) As far as I'm aware it is not possible to sense your own Ki, only others can do that for you. Hence Goku demonstrating his power in front of Karin and asking him to compare his Ki to Cell's. So why is it that when Goku says "This is the strongest Ki I've ever sensed" it includes Vegetto when Goku was Vegetto at the time so there would be no way he could sense his own Ki? The strongest Ki Goku would have ever sensed would be Boohan in that case. Same for Vegeta when he was fused with Goku as Vegetto.

Vegeta was able to tell he was stronger than Gohan.

Also, Goku felt a Ki greater than Buuhan's before SBV transformed.

You are interpreting that line like it has no other valid interpretations. The truth is that the line not really clear at all regarding what he exactly means. The emphasis of the "now" could be something as simple as him making it clear that he's even stronger than before, which he already considered the greatest saiyan power.

I don't see the point of drawing concrete conclusions from unclear lines.

I really don't get, how you can "now obtain" something you already had.

[rereboy]

I really don't get, how you can "now obtain" something you already had.

Because you surpassed your previous self. It's an emphasis on the fact that you have become even stronger.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I really don't see the logic in that. At all.

It's like the strongest person in the Universe becoming even stronger, and then saying I have now become the strongest in the Universe!

[rereboy]

I also don't see in the logic in Baby claiming to have the greatest saiyan power when he's not a saiyan and the power was only achieved with a mix of a saiyan and baby, who is not a saiyan.

But, as a reasonable man, I look beyond the specific words and follow what his intent was with that statement, which is to brag of how powerful he has become and that he thinks no one can surpass him.

You, however, do the opposite, and put so much focus on the specific words that you not only can only see a specific interpretation for it but you also draw concrete conclusions from regarding characters like Vegetto.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I also follow what (I assume) was the intent, and place SBV1 above Super Vegetto, since the writers specifically make Super Baby 1 last around for like 3 minutes just to have the exact 2 people who have been part of Vegetto have lines with greatest Ki I ever felt! and Now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power! in them.

[rereboy]

I also follow what (I assume) was the intent, and place SBV1 above Super Vegetto, since the writers specifically make Super Baby 1 last around for like 3 minutes just to have the exact 2 people who have been part of Vegetto have lines with greatest Ki I ever felt! and Now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power! in them.

And you are free to do so. However, there's no point in pretending that it's all very clear. It would be very easy for all that to be very clear if they wanted it to.

[Hitiro]

1) How would Bebi know he is stronger than Vegetto when he wasn't around when Vegetto existed?

He gets the memories of people he's infested inside of.

Can you show me proof of this? It's been a while since I saw the anime but I clearly recall Bebi being perplexed at Chi Chi and why he feels Goten is afraid of her. If he had the memories of Goten he should understand why he is afraid of Chi Chi. As far as I'm aware I don't recall any of the dialogue actually implying he gets the memories of the people he infests. But that may be because I haven't seen the anime in a while. But like Rereboy said. That doesn't mean to say that he is talking about every Saiyan who has ever existed when he says he now has the strongest Saiyan power. Because the only Saiyan's that exist are the ones we know. So he could just be further pointing out that he has surpassed Goku who was supposed to be the strongest Saiyan at the time. It could be entirely possible that SSJ3 Goku and Bebi at this point were fairly equal. Goku could be pulling his punches because he doesn't want to kill Vegeta as he didn't know how strong Bebi Vegeta was. Because after he threw his punch and then got punched himself he said something like "It seems Bebi can compete with me even as a SSJ3!?" As if he were surprised that this was going to be a hard fight to deal with. So I don't think he was going all out from the start, but he quickly turned back into a Base Saiyan after this so there is no way to compare the two characters. So it could have taken the next transformation to put Bebi truly above SSJ3 Goku for all we know.

2) As far as I'm aware it is not possible to sense your own Ki, only others can do that for you. Hence Goku demonstrating his power in front of Karin and asking him to compare his Ki to Cell's. So why is it that when Goku says "This is the strongest Ki I've ever sensed" it includes Vegetto when Goku was Vegetto at the time so there would be no way he could sense his own Ki? The strongest Ki Goku would have ever sensed would be Boohan in that case. Same for Vegeta when he was fused with Goku as Vegetto.

Vegeta was able to tell he was stronger than Gohan.

Also, Goku felt a Ki greater than Buuhan's before SBV transformed.

Yes, Vegeta was able to tell he was stronger than Gohan. But only after a certain period of time. That doesn't mean he sensed his own Ki. There are plenty of characters who went up against other characters because they thought they might be strong enough yet have been proven wrong. Look at when Evil Boo went up against Gohan. He knew Gohan's power had grown a lot. But he still thought Gohan because he couldn't completely tell the gap in their strengths.

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4
Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo
Gohan: “You can’t win…”
[ ]
Gohan: “I see…So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you…That’s too bad, Majin Boo.”

The Ki's that Goku felt were a mistake on my part. Sorry. I forgot that he went up against Rild, for example, who was stated to be above Majin Boo. Not that it tells us which Majin Boo though, which could very well mean just Pure Boo or Evil Boo. It doesn't necessarily mean Boohan or Bootenks. My point was that Goku could not say that Bebi's Ki surpassed SSJ Vegetto's because he couldn't sense his own Ki. The only characters he would be able to compare Bebi to would be his opponents like Boohan or Rild.

[GokuRules987]

SSG is a power that Goku said he could never reach on his own. GT verse has Goku obviously reaching those levels of strength. Therefore, SSG is far beyond anything in GT. It's possible they ARE that low.

No its not! Goku was exaggerating he almost got killed by a beerus half asleep throwing blast at him. this shows how ssj god is just another power multiplier. ssj4 goku was casually tanking those dark matter energy balls that could vaporize the planets. SSJ4 goku was able to pick up entire city when it was collapsing underground, he also fought against baby who absorbed every single z fighter.

[singsing]

No its not! Goku was exaggerating he almost got killed by a beerus half asleep throwing blast at him. this shows how ssj god is just another power multiplier. ssj4 goku was casually tanking those dark matter energy balls that could vaporize the planets. SSJ4 goku was able to pick up entire city when it was collapsing underground, he also fought against baby who absorbed every single z fighter.

A shocked "oh shit" look on his face doesn't look like exaggeration to me, where did you get that from? I see no proof that Goku was lying. SSJ4 Goku actually has some of the weakest showings ever, he was also cut by glass and nearly died to a clock being thrown at him. Picking up a city block isn't that great of a showing either, nor is Baby since everyone but Goku and Vegeta is useless in GT anyway.

[dbgtFO]

Except their lines were not I have now obtained the greatest speed / power in the universe!

And Buu wasn't planning on absorbing Gohan before that, and Buutenks was the strongest Majin.

So how does that exactly refute SBV1 being above Super Vegetto?

Buu had the option of absorbing Gotenks by surprise or Gohan by surprise. Gohan asks him why he forewent the obvious choice to absorb him instead. Buu's response was that he wanted an opponent to fight against. He then notes that his current power is time-sensitive, so he must be quick.

So if he had no intentions of becoming Buuhan way back when he started fighting Gohan and only came up with that plan after getting his head-tail cut off by Goku's Energy Disk, then that means your argument is that Buutenks intended to have Gotenks power for a brief amount of time, use it to defeat Gohan, and then lose that power and go back to a lesser form and be satisfied with that lesser power for the rest of his life. I don't see that as a possibility given Buu's established personality.

Buu was on the verge of blowing up the planet just before Goku appeared.
He showed no intention of absorbing Gohan at that point and it seems clear he only did so, because his attempt was thwarted and he became weak enough for Gohan to handle.

[Tectorman]

Buu explicitly tried to finish off Gohan during the fight.

Buu explicitly tried to (and did) beat Gohan to a bloody pulp. Do we know, not just guess but know, that injured opponents don't or wouldn't get fully integrated into Buu?

Buu trying to blow up the Earth doesn't change anything, either. Ever since Frieza was powerless and cut in half, mere planet-busters have never been things that would kill the upper-tier Z-Fighters. Given that they'd lose the atmosphere and would only have their last breath to do anything with, the Earth being destroyed is still a "mission failed" outcome. Which is not the same thing as being killed outright and immediately. Destroying Earth is only the signal that the fight is over and all that would have been left is to pick out Gohan's dying-but-not-dead body from the debris and absorb it.

You're the one claiming he's wrong, so prove it.

So Vegeta's claim to be the greatest in the universe is so much stuff and nonsense, Ginyu's claim that Burter is the fastest is mere sound and fury, and Burter's same claim is preposterous balderdash, but SBV's claim MUST (not just could be, but MUST) be Holy Writ given from the Heavens? I don't get it.

SBV claims to NOW be the greatest, and Goku agrees. In reverse order, we have Ginyu and Burter doing the same thing. Why the double standard?

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Now we know beerus is 10 and whis is a 15. Now let's say they are the strongest characters in db verse. Now I have a question how powerful would dbgt characters be. Let's say the scale is 1-15. What power levels would you place on these guys?

Ssj4 goku
Ssj4 vegeta
Baby vegeta
Super 17
Omega shenron
Ssj4 gogeta

Assuming these are all alternate reality versions of the characters, and not the same ones from BoG a decade later, I have it as:
SSJ4 Goku - 6
SSJ4 Vegeta - 6
Baby Vegeta - 5
Super 17 - 5 (8 after absorbing)
Omega Shenron - 10
SSJ4 Gogeta - 13

That looks somewhat accurate.

Id go with that.

Although. If your scale is 1-15 for beerus and whis too, Id knock them down a bit. Id think GT was more powerful at the end than what we've seen in BoG.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Can you show me proof of this? It's been a while since I saw the anime but I clearly recall Bebi being perplexed at Chi Chi and why he feels Goten is afraid of her. If he had the memories of Goten he should understand why he is afraid of Chi Chi. As far as I'm aware I don't recall any of the dialogue actually implying he gets the memories of the people he infests.

When he went inside of Goten, he knew where Goten lived (how else would he get home, or to Capsule Corp and know where Bulma and Chi-Chi were, at least.) And he instantly knew Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth. He also knew Gohan's name.

But like Rereboy said. That doesn't mean to say that he is talking about every Saiyan who has ever existed when he says he now has the strongest Saiyan power. Because the only Saiyan's that exist are the ones we know.

He was already ahead of every other Saiyan existing.

It could be entirely possible that SSJ3 Goku and Bebi at this point were fairly equal.

Eh..
Episode 29
Time: around 8m55s
Context: Goku just turned Super Saiyan 3
Vegeta: "You think you're so clever! Is that all you can manage? Should I wait a bit longer?"

Baby doesn't seem to think so.

Episode 29
Time: 9m25s
Context: Goku's punch did little damage to Vegeta
Goku: (to himself) "It looks like he's more than an even match for me, even at Super Saiyan 3! The power of Baby and Vegeta combined...I never thought it would be this great!"

Neither does Goku.

Episode 29
Time: around 9m50s
Context: Goku is losing control of Super Saiyan 3
Vegeta: "What’s the matter, Goku? Is that all the power the mightiest Saiyan has?"

Goku could be pulling his punches because he doesn't want to kill Vegeta as he didn't know how strong Bebi Vegeta was.

The burden of proof would rest on you. Also, he did know how strong BV was, since he just powered up.

Yes, Vegeta was able to tell he was stronger than Gohan. But only after a certain period of time. That doesn't mean he sensed his own Ki.

I don't see how Vegeta would be able to tell he was stronger than Gohan, if he didn't know his own Ki.

There are plenty of characters who went up against other characters because they thought they might be strong enough yet have been proven wrong. Look at when Evil Boo went up against Gohan. He knew Gohan's power had grown a lot. But he still thought Gohan because he couldn't completely tell the gap in their strengths.

Gohan hadn't fully powered up until he was right in front of Super Buu.

The Ki's that Goku felt were a mistake on my part. Sorry.

Don't worry about it, mate.

I forgot that he went up against Rild, for example, who was stated to be above Majin Boo. Not that it tells us which Majin Boo though, which could very well mean just Pure Boo or Evil Boo. It doesn't necessarily mean Boohan or Bootenks. My point was that Goku could not say that Bebi's Ki surpassed SSJ Vegetto's because he couldn't sense his own Ki. The only characters he would be able to compare Bebi to would be his opponents like Boohan or Rild.

Well, I was actually talking about Gohan. Goku had sensed SS Gohan at that point, and the PF say Gohan didn't neglect his training, so I'm sure if Gohan was atleast half of Buuhan in the Buu saga, that with 5+ years of training and SS, he would atleast surpass Buuhan.

Buu explicitly tried to (and did) beat Gohan to a bloody pulp. Do we know, not just guess but know, that injured opponents don't or wouldn't get fully integrated into Buu?

Buu trying to blow up the Earth doesn't change anything, either. Ever since Freeza was powerless and cut in half, mere planet-busters have never been things that would kill the upper-tier Z-Fighters. Given that they'd lose the atmosphere and would only have their last breath to do anything with, the Earth being destroyed is still a "mission failed" outcome. Which is not the same thing as being killed outright and immediately. Destroying Earth is only the signal that the fight is over and all that would have been left is to pick out Gohan's dying-but-not-dead body from the debris and absorb it.

I'm sorry, but how does this prove Buu was actually secretly planning on absorbing Gohan the whole time? He was about to shoot Gohan with a KHH, because he knew Gohan would narrowly avoid it, then he was going to destroy the Planet, knowing Tenshinhan would stop it, then he was waiting for Gotenks to unfuse and to absorb Gohan last second? What?

So Vegeta's claim to be the greatest in the universe is so much stuff and nonsense, Ginyu's claim that Burter is the fastest is mere sound and fury, and Burter's same claim is preposterous balderdash, but SBV's claim MUST (not just could be, but MUST) be Holy Writ given from the Heavens? I don't get it.

SBV claims to NOW be the greatest, and Goku agrees. In reverse order, we have Ginyu and Burter doing the same thing. Why the double standard?

Because that's how it works. Unless a statement is directly contradicted or retracted it's always taken as fact. You can't use other instances to prove another one wrong. That's not how it works.

But if we do use that logic. Guidebooks have been wrong before, so how do we know that anime guide can actually be trusted? We should disregard it.

[Hitiro]

Can you show me proof of this? It's been a while since I saw the anime but I clearly recall Bebi being perplexed at Chi Chi and why he feels Goten is afraid of her. If he had the memories of Goten he should understand why he is afraid of Chi Chi. As far as I'm aware I don't recall any of the dialogue actually implying he gets the memories of the people he infests.

When he went inside of Goten, he knew where Goten lived (how else would he get home, or to Capsule Corp and know where Bulma and Chi-Chi were, at least.) And he instantly knew Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan on Earth. He also knew Gohan's name.

Fair enough then.

But like Rereboy said. That doesn't mean to say that he is talking about every Saiyan who has ever existed when he says he now has the strongest Saiyan power. Because the only Saiyan's that exist are the ones we know.

He was already ahead of every other Saiyan existing.

Like I said, debatable because we don't know what the difference in power between Goku and himself was at the time.

It could be entirely possible that SSJ3 Goku and Bebi at this point were fairly equal.

Eh..
Episode 29
Time: around 8m55s
Context: Goku just turned Super Saiyan 3
Vegeta: "You think you're so clever! Is that all you can manage? Should I wait a bit longer?"

Baby doesn't seem to think so.

Because Goku had to be at 100% at this point? He only just transformed. Nothing is to say he didn't start off at 50% power, transformed and then was at 50% SSJ3.

Episode 29
Time: 9m25s
Context: Goku's punch did little damage to Vegeta
Goku: (to himself) "It looks like he's more than an even match for me, even at Super Saiyan 3! The power of Baby and Vegeta combined...I never thought it would be this great!"

Neither does Goku.

This just says that Bebi more than can keep up with him at SSJ3 to me. I don't see why this as it saying Bebi was at a strength far surpassing him at all.

Episode 29
Time: around 9m50s
Context: Goku is losing control of Super Saiyan 3
Vegeta: "What’s the matter, Goku? Is that all the power the mightiest Saiyan has?"

Before Goku can get into the swing of things he reverts. This really means nothing. Goku demonstrated a better fight against SBV2 when he gained his tail and his strength was said not to have increased at all. Only his stamina had increased. So if SSJ3 Goku w/ tail can give trouble to SBV2 then the fight with SBV1 would have been vastly different if he could have maintained the form like he did with his tail.

Goku could be pulling his punches because he doesn't want to kill Vegeta as he didn't know how strong Bebi Vegeta was.

The burden of proof would rest on you. Also, he did know how strong BV was, since he just powered up.

If he knew how strong BV was then he wouldn't have spoken the way he did at 9mins 25 secs. "It looks like" and "I never thought it would be this great!" suggest that before he even tried punching SBV he thought that he could deal with him.

Yes, Vegeta was able to tell he was stronger than Gohan. But only after a certain period of time. That doesn't mean he sensed his own Ki.

I don't see how Vegeta would be able to tell he was stronger than Gohan, if he didn't know his own Ki.

If someone looks unimpressive to you then obviously you're going to think/know you're stronger. He doesn't need to sense his Ki for that. Look at Gohan when his dad and Cell were fighting. He wasn't impressed by them fighting yet he still thought his father was superior to him in strength because he believed his dad wasn't giving it his all. Just by checking his fathers Ki and comparing it to his own he would know that he was superior if he could actually sense his own Ki. Another example is Freeza, he can't even sense Ki yet he knew that he wouldn't need more than 50% of his power to deal with Goku.

There are plenty of characters who went up against other characters because they thought they might be strong enough yet have been proven wrong. Look at when Evil Boo went up against Gohan. He knew Gohan's power had grown a lot. But he still thought Gohan because he couldn't completely tell the gap in their strengths.

Gohan hadn't fully powered up until he was right in front of Super Buu.

The dialogue from Gohan seems to suggest that Boo already knew how he compared to Gohan and tried testing his power just to be sure anyway. So it doesn't really matter if Gohan hadn't fully powered up until the fight. Boo still felt he might be inferior.

I forgot that he went up against Rild, for example, who was stated to be above Majin Boo. Not that it tells us which Majin Boo though, which could very well mean just Pure Boo or Evil Boo. It doesn't necessarily mean Boohan or Bootenks. My point was that Goku could not say that Bebi's Ki surpassed SSJ Vegetto's because he couldn't sense his own Ki. The only characters he would be able to compare Bebi to would be his opponents like Boohan or Rild.

Well, I was actually talking about Gohan. Goku had sensed SS Gohan at that point, and the PF say Gohan didn't neglect his training, so I'm sure if Gohan was atleast half of Buuhan in the Buu saga, that with 5+ years of training and SS, he would atleast surpass Buuhan.

I'm not sure I'm following what you mean here. Gohan may have not neglected his training but we can't know how much he gained in 5 years of self training. It may have not even been 5 years for all we know. Training also doesn't mean he has to have gotten stronger. He may have kept training to maintain what he was currently at. It took Goku and Vegeta 7 years of extreme effort and practically 24/7 to surpass SSJ2 Gohan in strength. Gohan was not more than 2x stronger than them at that point. So 5 years with a couple of hours training each day would not put Gohan that much higher than he was at EoZ. The Rou Kaioshin power up is supposed to unlock your hidden power like the SSJ forms do. So if Gohan goes SSJ I doubt there is much, if any, hidden power left in him. Because if Chou Gohan is 99% hidden power then the SSJ form is only going to be 1% of the last part of his hidden power. So it could still be:

Boohan > Rild > Gohan

If we're going to use guidebooks and other official material though, the GT anime comic says that SSJ4 Goku is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto.

[Methuselah]

Going with the interpretation of the new movies being within GT's timeline, every single one of the GT characters in the OP would be way over a 15. Super Baby 1's statement isn't all that ambiguous, it's a standard way of saying he's stronger than anything before. 99.99% of the time, the main villain of the newest arc is going to be more powerful than the strongest thing of a previous one.

[Berserker1921]

Guys guys what is this stuff? I was just asking what you thought their powers would be. Not a flame war about baby vegeta and vegito. Haha. Enough of that stuff. Just give me your number between 1-15. That's all

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Guys guys what is this stuff? I was just asking what you thought their powers would be. Not a flame war about baby vegeta and vegito. Haha. Enough of that stuff. Just give me your number between 1-15. That's all

Fair enough. @Hitiro if you're interested enough, you can open a thread if you wish to continue this conversation. This is off topic.

But I did want to add one more thing:

If we're going to use guidebooks and other official material though, the GT anime comic says that SSJ4 Goku is about as strong as SSJ Vegetto.

It doesn't say SS Vegetto. It can easily be interpreted as SS3 Vegetto > SS4 Goku (which I actually take it to mean.) Also, guidebooks don't hold more weight over the actual show. If it conflicts with the show, it should be discarded.

[Marlowe89]

Just give me your number between 1-15. That's all

These numbers are obviously going to be complete speculation, but my reasoning for them can be found in my previous post in this thread:

Super Saiyan 4 Goku/Vegeta: >1
Omega Shenron: >1, but much closer to 1 than the above
Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta: 3 or 4
Everyone else in GT: >1
Super Saiyan God Goku: 6
Beerus: 10
Whis: 15