What things irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series?

[Lord Beerus]

No, a god intervening to fix the situation that mortals have gotten themselves into is the original meaning of deus ex machina.

Then I guess Kami, Dende and Lord Enma are all deus ex machinas.

Mystic isn't a transformation. It's all of his hidden power brought to the surface, no more of a transformation than the Great Elder's unlock.

Then why does Gohan power up before fighting Super Boo if all his latent is already in his base form?

[Vice]

If Gohan can turn SSJ. Why...didn't he use SSJ or SSJ 2 against Gotenks Boo when he was getting the shit beaten outta him.

I just told you, the Mystic form is the top transformation. There is no Mystic Super Saiyan or whatever. There's Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic. There is nothing higher than that.

Mystic isn't a transformation. It's all of his hidden power brought to the surface, no more of a transformation than the Great Elder's unlock.

Funny considering he had to transform to achieve it.

[rereboy]

Then why does Gohan power up before fighting Super Boo if all his latent is already in his base form?

For the same reason Goku powered up in his base before fighting Nappa. They were both suppressing a portion of their power. But, while Goku would need to transform or use Kaioken to reach a power higher than his total base power, Gohan can reach all of that power without having to transform.

[dbgtFO]

I'd prefer it, if Toriyama/Toei just admitted they goofed on that one.
They are ruining my head-canon otherwise
But I don't have high hopes for it.

Nothing in the manga says that achieving his "mystic" state locked Gohan out of Super Saiyan. That's just a fan theory that got so popular that when BoG contradicted it, everyone started screaming "plothole!" It's nothing more than what you said, it ruins some people's head-canons.

Yes, I know that very well.

As a fan very much interested in these in-universe tidbits, however, it annoys me a bit, that I should take this as a legit answer to the debate, when it was originally intended to just be Super Saiyan Gohan in the movie and the staff allegedly backtracked, due to negative feedback to the trailer and unwittingly gave the answer to a long-standing debate amongst DB fans.
I'd rather take the original script as the proper rendition of events, but sadly we don't have one released publically and Toriyama probably wouldn't have done more than perhaps just write "Gohan changes to his fighting gi, goes full power and attack Beerus, but to no avail." Or something like that, where it isn't clear, if Toriyama wanted him as an SS or not.
Why couldn't Toyble have made an official Manga adaptation?

[Lord Beerus]

Then why does Gohan power up before fighting Super Boo if all his latent is already in his base form?

For the same reason Goku powered up in his base before fighting Nappa. They were both suppressing a portion of their power. But, while Goku would need to transform or use Kaioken to reach a power higher than his total base power, Gohan can reach all of that power without having to transform.

How could Gohan suppress power when it all drawn out for him already? Especially since it was in his base form, apparently.

[Rocketman]

Then I guess Kami, Dende and Lord Enma are all deus ex machinas.

No, they're part of and help drive the narrative. Deus occurs at the climax.

A classic example would be the play Aclestis, where the title character has agreed to die in place of her husband. The play is set in motion by the actions of Apollo (and obviously all Greek plays assume the Gods of Olympus are at least watching, if not directly involved), but the drama is resolved when Hercules happens to show up at the end and drops an elbow on Death to allow Aclestis to live longer.

Then why does Gohan power up before fighting Super Boo if all his latent is already in his base form?

The same reason Gohan and Krillin power up before fighting Gurd? Just because he has all his hidden power available doesn't mean he's walking around at 100% always.

[TheGmGoken]

If Gohan can turn SSJ. Why...didn't he use SSJ or SSJ 2 against Gotenks Boo when he was getting the shit beaten outta him.

I just told you, the Mystic form is the top transformation. There is no Mystic Super Saiyan or whatever. There's Super Saiyan, then Super Saiyan 2 then Mystic. There is nothing higher than that.

Mystic isn't a transformation. It's all of his hidden power brought to the surface, no more of a transformation than the Great Elder's unlock.

Funny considering he had to transform to achieve it.

You...um..never told me anything... .Mis quote?

[The Desert Bandit]

I agree with your first two points. I hated how Bulma suddenly left Yamcha for Vegeta just for AT to introduce Trunks. If he needed another Saiyan, then introduce a new female to the series. I understand AT stated that he has difficulty drawing women, but I'm pretty sure she'd be minor if her only purpose was to marry Vegeta, meaning she wouldn't need to be drawn very often. Basically, AT just gave a big middle finger to the many years Bulma and Yamcha spent together.

Honestly, what happened to Yamcha's dream of getting married? This ties into the other turning point you mentioned, which is the slow decay of humans' roles in the series.

The other turning point I didn't enjoy was how becoming a Super Saiyan was soon no longer an achievement. I understand this was joked about in the series, clearly meaning AT was well aware of how becoming a Super Saiyan was common at this point. However, that doesn't make it right. Just because a character is a Saiyan, doesn't mean they MUST become a Super Saiyan. Honestly, I'm fine with multiple Super Saiyans, but when we see so many of them popping out every week, it makes the Frieza Saga and everything Goku went through beforehand seem like a joke.

[rereboy]

How could Gohan suppress power when it all drawn out for him already? Especially since it was in his base form, apparently.

You are misunderstanding the upgrade that the Old Kaioshin gave to Gohan.

His upgrade, besides making Gohan stronger, made Gohan able to access all of his power in his base form (aka without needing extra transformations).

That doesn't mean that Gohan is constantly using his maximum power all the time after the upgrade or that he lost his ability to control his power level. It simply means that if wants to use his maximum power, he doesn't need extra transformations, he can access it in his base form.

Therefore, while Goku would have to transform into SSJ3 to reach his maximum power, Gohan can simply reach his maximum power in his base form, without further transformations.

[Zephyr]

Also, don't the Namekian Dragon Balls being a thing preclude Whis' ability from being a "literal" deus ex machina?

No, a god intervening to fix the situation that mortals have gotten themselves into is the original meaning of deus ex machina.

Oh you're talking about the original meaning. That makes sense. Language evolves over time though, and terms can adopt new connotations. According to TV Tropes at least:

"If the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention, the solution is not a Deus Ex Machina no matter how unexpected it may seem."

You can disregard that "because it's just TV Tropes" if you want, but then it becomes a matter of one person's definition of a concept vs another person's definition of a concept.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Were there not actual machines used in some productions to imitate the presence or powers of a god? Since the phrase is literally "God out of the Machine".

[soulnova]

I understand AT stated that he has difficulty drawing women, but I'm pretty sure she'd be minor if her only purpose was to marry Vegeta, meaning she wouldn't need to be drawn very often. Basically, AT just gave a big middle finger to the many years Bulma and Yamcha spent together.

What woman would be crazy enough to approach Vegeta at that point on the series? Launch? Bulma's mom? Making a new character just so she pops out a Saiyan would have been lazy writing.

But to be honest, all those many years of Bulma and Yamcha spent together were actually a big thing against them. One would have expected that by the start of DBZ they would have also gotten married or had a kid too. But they didn't. 15 years. 15 years and their relationship went nowhere.

Bulma was already on her 30's at the time. I'm not surprised that if Trunks was an "accident" she decided to go through with him.

[The Desert Bandit]

I understand AT stated that he has difficulty drawing women, but I'm pretty sure she'd be minor if her only purpose was to marry Vegeta, meaning she wouldn't need to be drawn very often. Basically, AT just gave a big middle finger to the many years Bulma and Yamcha spent together.

What woman would be crazy enough to approach Vegeta at that point on the series? Launch? Bulma's mom? Making a new character just so she pops out a Saiyan would have been lazy writing.

But to be honest, all those many years of Bulma and Yamcha spent together were actually a big thing against them. One would have expected that by the start of DBZ they would have also gotten married or had a kid too. But they didn't. 15 years. 15 years and their relationship went nowhere.

Bulma was already on her 30's at the time. I'm not surprised that if Trunks was an "accident" she decided to go through with him.

If that's the case, then why have another Saiyan? Maybe Yamcha and Bulma can have a kid. This child becomes a martial artists and trains with Gohan and everything. This would also give the human race more relevance in Z.

[TheGmGoken]

I understand AT stated that he has difficulty drawing women, but I'm pretty sure she'd be minor if her only purpose was to marry Vegeta, meaning she wouldn't need to be drawn very often. Basically, AT just gave a big middle finger to the many years Bulma and Yamcha spent together.

What woman would be crazy enough to approach Vegeta at that point on the series? Launch? Bulma's mom? Making a new character just so she pops out a Saiyan would have been lazy writing.

But to be honest, all those many years of Bulma and Yamcha spent together were actually a big thing against them. One would have expected that by the start of DBZ they would have also gotten married or had a kid too. But they didn't. 15 years. 15 years and their relationship went nowhere.

Bulma was already on her 30's at the time. I'm not surprised that if Trunks was an "accident" she decided to go through with him.

If that's the case, then why have another Saiyan? Maybe Yamcha and Bulma can have a kid. This child becomes a martial artists and trains with Gohan and everything. This would also give the human race more relevance in Z.

Because Saiyans are cooler and probably made more $$$ than humans. Similar to why Yamcha was tossed aside in DB. I believe Gaffer on DBD or an interview on here said something about changing cast for money reasons.

Humans don't draw. Saiyans do. Super Saiyan was a hit topic too. So introducing a NEW Ssj, A future Saiyan, And Vegeta-Bulma son.

Toriyama was thinking of big bills. Also Humans was relevant to the Boo arc. Heard of a Earthlings human named Ten or even Krillin. Bulma? Dr. Briefs? All relevant.

[dbgtFO]

Toriyama was thinking of big bills.

No, he first started doing that 3 years ago

[ABED]

Toriyama was thinking of big bills.

No, he first started doing that 3 years ago

I believe he became a manga artist to make money.

[Basaku]

So we are obviously all still fans of the franchise in a general sense. But what turns has the series taken where you then started to enjoy it less from that point?

Buu arc. Sudden backtracing from Gohan being the main character combined with mental stagnation & regression of Goku. I still liked a lot of it and was entertained, but it was without a doubt the weakest arc of Z.

[TheGmGoken]

Toriyama was thinking of big bills.

No, he first started doing that 3 years ago

I believe he became a manga artist to make money.

DbgtFO was clearly making a joke

[ABED]

DbgtFO was clearly making a joke

It's not clear exactly what the razz really meant.

Buu arc. Sudden backtracing from Gohan being the main character combined with mental stagnation & regression of Goku. I still liked a lot of it and was entertained, but it was without a doubt the weakest arc of Z.

I agree that the Buu arc is the weakest but not for the reasons you mentioned. Gohan isn't suited for the role so I'm glad Toriyama came to his senses. Goku didn't grow mentally past the end of DB, so I'm not sure how he mentally stagnated in the Buu arc. It's the weakest because there's an overreliance on gimmicks, Toriyama's lack of planning is very evident, and the humor completely undercuts any semblance of drama.

[Lord Beerus]

Toriyama was thinking of big bills.

No, he first started doing that 3 years ago

Big bills from big beerus.