What things irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series?

[TobyS]

So we are obviously all still fans of the franchise in a general sense. But what turns has the series taken where you then started to enjoy it less from that point?

Mine for example:

1. Not keeping minor fighters relavent/jobbing them to make Goku look better. Weirdly I think AT avoided this for longer than we think of normally, perhaps because of movies and filler.

Goku was pretty much always the strongest but AT always gave other characters a moment to shine. For example Piccolo compliments Krillins power and re-evaluates how hard the earth would be to conquer. Yamcha gets complimented by God himself, lands a solid sokidan to the guys face which pressures the guy to knock him out hard.
Kuririn would have killed Nappa if not for Vegetas warning him off. Weaker characters help against Ginyus and Freeza himself.

Even in the android saga there's vague statements in the early part about the humans having got very strong, Yamaha is mistaken for Goku, their combined energy is considered relevant and Tenshinhan is included in 17's “18 can't handle them all by herself" line.

Kuririn sort of considers himself usefull against and thenclater Ten is considered useful against initial Cell.

Ten gets the famous kikoho moment.

Only after this point do they turn down the RoSAT and truly vanish, and even then they show up to the Cell games to do whatever they can.

That's about 80% of the series. Until this point only the shitty movies and filler of their astonished whimpering disrespected them.

Piccolo is thrown away to boost SK yet SK is then made to look pretty weak making Piccolos relavency sacrifice for nothing.
Buu does throw in a line about Ten “being quite a master" though and everyone dies chip in on the spirit bomb.

But then along comes BoG. Goku gets artificially pushed above his half human son doing away with the idea that sayain human hybrids are the best which was the crux of the cell saga and a plot point back as far as Raditz. Humans are dissed by extension, they aren't even fit to make half breeds anymore. Kuririn in and Yamcha don't even back their buddy Ten up.

Yamcha is left entirely out of BoG but Roshi and Bulma are around.... Piccolo jobs to a Free a henchman.

Gohans treatment is disgusting but is covered elsewhere in depth.

2. Bulma/Vegeta/Yamcha

Casting aside years of the cute and funny on/off again Y/B relationship to turn Bulma into an incubator for another plot induced super saiyan by shacking up with a genocidal mass murdering ego maniac who ordered the executions of her best friends.... Urgh, women being treated as prizes is a problem in fiction generally but in this case it's also rewarded the WORST behaviour...
Yamaha is made out to be the cheater despite the guy being portrayed as loyal (willing to die against the RRA and Piccolo out of loyalty to Goku, dying in place of Kuririn because he knows he's more resurectable.) And still has his fear of women as confirmed by Toriyama.

3. Main canon + [Xenoverse] Confusion with the 3 timelines and Tokitoki/Beerus.
What happened to Babidi/Dabra/Buu in Trunks and Cells timelines? Is there only one Beers and Whis like there is only one Tokitoki? If there's more what did they do in Trunks/Cells timelines? Worse is that these questions never get answered...

Bonus 4: Historically I would have said GT but Toriyamas contradiction of it with BoG/RoF and statement about it being a side story , DBO contributions and Xenoverses statements mean I have no beef with it anymore existing as its own thing and people enjoying it as such, it doesn't damage the credibility of the manga canon much if it isn't attached to it.

[sintzu]

Thankfully Toriyama hasn't done anything to lower my opinion on his story,if anything I have an even higher opinion about it due to him letting Vegeta beat Freeza into the ground.

Before XV I pretty much gave up all hope on Bandai giving us a good game but it looks like they're back on track.

Toie has overall done good with the franchise in terms of bringing the story to life but they should never try to write it themselves.

[Doctor.]

The latest movie, it was disappointing beyond belief.

[TheGmGoken]

Super Rainbow warriors! The latest design of characters are just awful. Super Saiyan God looks so basic even understanding that the entire concept was not to look awesome. It's quite vanilla and the red-pink with orange skin makes Goku look like Jimmy Neutron when he turnt to Hulk. Overall a bad form. Ssgssj just made it worse with it's shitty name and blue design. Golden Freeza isnt worth explaining. Just a damn right ugly ass form straight out of fanfiction nation. Not to mention years of recolor fan made form came to life. With the fanfiction forms being "terrible" while the Toriyama form being good.

Lack of Goten in RF

[Doctor.]

I seriously cannot comprehend this whole sentiment that the new forms are seen as having good designs because Toriyama made them. From all the people I've seen, the vast majority dislike the new forms, especially SSGSS and Golden Freeza.

[Chuquita]

Losing the more creative and super cute ssjg two years in and having it replaced by a blue ssj1 recolor made me feel really sad and disappointed. First time I actually left the forums for a couple days. I was genuinely saddened.

Still holding out hope for ssjg Gokû to appear in the extended version. He's in the manga at least.

[B]

Vegeta and Gohan come drastically close, but I don't think they ruin the other parts of the story I love. It helps they've significantly improved as characters from the Buu arc onward.

[ABED]

Goku gets artificially pushed above his half human son doing away with the idea that sayain human hybrids are the best which was the crux of the cell saga and a plot point back as far as Raditz.

As I recall, that wasn't something firmly established, but something posited by Vegeta. He didn't even say they are the best, just that they have a lot of potential. Gohan wasn't pushed because a hybrid, he was pushed because he's Goku's son. I don't think that's the crux of the Cell arc either.

Yamaha is made out to be the cheater despite the guy being portrayed as loyal

People are more complex than that. Some compartmentalize. They are super loyal and stringent and one area, but not in another area of their life.

[Adamant]

Piccolo is thrown away to boost SK yet SK is then made to look pretty weak making Piccolos relavency sacrifice for nothing.

What in the world is "SK"?

[Bullza]

Nothing drastically, I just wish they'd kept the same level of violence the series had which has now all but gone.

[Man-Child]

Irreversibly? Man thats tough. I guess flaws in the writing, looking back. That and the forced, unfunny humor at times.

[ABED]

Nothing drastically, I just wish they'd kept the same level of violence the series had which has now all but gone.

At what point, it changes from arc to arc.

I don't know if lowered my opinion of the series, but the battle powers after the Freeza arc are less impressive because it's all tell, don't show. It's hard to convey a sense of power when you already have fighters capable of destroying planets.

[Akyon]

Vegeta being forgiven in-universe for all the shitty things he did pre-Buu's final redemption.
I kind of get it with Gohan and Krillin since he did end up helping them out a few times on Namek, but everyone else except Tenshinhan was acting really weirdly friendly towards him. Even Yamcha seemed mostly cool with Vegeta despite the out of the blue hook up with his long-term girlfriend.

Goten and Trunks achieving Super Saiyan without great emotional stress or training, thus cheapening it beyond belief.
Pan will probably sneeze really hard and accidentally unlock it in Super. Mark my words.

Dragonballs being able to revive everyone multiple times without any drawbacks.
Especially prevalent in the Buu saga where it's like "Ah, don't worry about saving any of our friends, we'll just wish em back with the Dragonballs".

Humans not getting even the fricking Kaio-ken.
Seriously. I make no apologies for loving the Dragonball cast more than all these alien newcomers, and this is probably my biggest personal issue with the series. There's not even a reason they can't be given the Kaio Ken when Goku stops using it!
Tenshinhan, Chiaoutzu and Yamcha were on King Kai's planet for quite some time. Krillin could of been taught it easily during the training for the Androids allowing the Kaio-Ken to remain relevant and the humans to not just nearly die by being blinked at a little too hard by the opposing enemies.

Goku and the Saiyans getting higher levels of Super Saiyan, thus rendering strategy obsolete and instead relying on the next big transformation.
Super Saiyan 3 felt ridiculous to me since it came pretty much out of no-where and cheapened the Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta fight.
Sadly I appear to be alone on this since everyone else I know gets hyped every time a new form appears with slightly altered hair styles.

Fan's opinions on Krillin and Yamcha as a whole.
Pretty self explanatory.

Fan's opinions on Strength=Good character.
Likewise.

Fans.
At times.

[TheGmGoken]

Not to be in universe but Kaioken would not help humans at all.

Enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3.

Kaioken would have not work. Maybe in movies. But a short burst of energy with stress will probably actually make them less useful. Especially if they manage a Kaioken times 100.

[Akyon]

Not to be in universe but Kaioken would not help humans at all.

Enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3.

Kaioken would have not work. Maybe in movies. But a short burst of energy with stress will probably actually make them less useful. Especially if they manage a Kaioken times 100.

Well, perhaps not. I certainly don't expect it to allow them to overcome enemies which SSJ and beyond cannot beat, although I doubt it would make them less useful.

I also believe the stress on the body can probably be tamed somewhat with practice, much like how using heavier weights get easier the more you use them. Didn't Goku only feel immense stress on his body when he pushed the mulitplier far beyond what he'd used during training?

[Kamiccolo9]

Not to be in universe but Kaioken would not help humans at all.

Enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3.

Kaioken would have not work. Maybe in movies. But a short burst of energy with stress will probably actually make them less useful. Especially if they manage a Kaioken times 100.

As if SSJ multipliers were even remotely relevant at the time of writing.

[fadeddreams5]

Nothing drastically, I just wish they'd kept the same level of violence the series had which has now all but gone.

At what point, it changes from arc to arc.

It was pretty violent every single saga of DBZ.
> Goku's bones being crushed by Great Ape Vegeta. Tien's arm being punched off.
> Krillin being impaled.
> Trunks chopping Frieza up.
> Yamcha getting a hole punched through him.
> Images of the people Babidi and crew killed. Those goons who kill Buu's dog sniper rifling an old couple.

Every single saga.

It's VERY toned down in modern specials and movies.

[sintzu]

Vegeta being forgiven in-universe for all the shitty things he did pre-Buu's final redemption.

Super Saiyan 3 felt ridiculous to me since it came pretty much out of no-where

What would you have them do to him ? put him in jail ?

For me it's how unuseful it was which will hopefully change in Super.

[TheGmGoken]

Not to be in universe but Kaioken would not help humans at all.

Enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3.

Kaioken would have not work. Maybe in movies. But a short burst of energy with stress will probably actually make them less useful. Especially if they manage a Kaioken times 100.

As if SSJ multipliers were even remotely relevant at the time of writing.

I never brought up SSJ multiplers. I wasn't even thinking about it when I wrote the post. Idk how you came to such an assumption.

[Kamiccolo9]

Not to be in universe but Kaioken would not help humans at all.

Enemies stronger than SSJ, SSJ2, AND SSJ3.

Kaioken would have not work. Maybe in movies. But a short burst of energy with stress will probably actually make them less useful. Especially if they manage a Kaioken times 100.

As if SSJ multipliers were even remotely relevant at the time of writing.

I never brought up SSJ multiplers. I wasn't even thinking about it when I wrote the post. Idk how you came to such an assumption.

Because people in the manga were as strong as Toriyama wanted to be. If he had wanted to make an Earthling with Kaio-Ken as strong or stronger than one of the Super Saiyans, he could have.

Saying it "would not work" is tantamount to saying that it violates the logic of the power levels of the series, when most of the stuff concerning said levels came out years after the manga was done, and therefore irrelevant.

If Toriyama had wanted Kaio-Ken to be that effective, he could have made it so.