Kid Goku GT vs. SSGSS Goku?

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's not even about speed and/or other visual feats. Although quite subtle, there were a handful of hints throughout GT and BoG that basically point towards GT characters (with the exclusion of SSJ4 Gogeta) being below Beerus.

While pure speculation at this point, I still find feasibility behind these theories.

Simply put, when I consider the following points, things begin to make a lot more sense.

-SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

-SSG Goku was on fighting terms with Beerus. Therefore, it's safe to assume that SSG Goku also far outshines SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

-SSJ4 Goku (who I feel is superior to SSJ Vegetto, but worlds below Beerus) was able to endure the devastating attacks of Omega Shenron. Meaning, the gap between the dragon and SSJ4 Goku, was likely a good amount smaller than the gap between SSJ Vegetto and Beerus. Although I consider SSJ4 Goku a decent amount above SSJ Vegetto, due to the large gap between the latter and Beerus, I'm inclined to believe that the mighty dragon is weaker than the destructive feline. If SSJ4 Goku was put in the unfortunate circumstance of having to take on Beerus, unlike how his fight with Omega Shenron went, he likely would have been one-shotted or beat down in a matter of seconds.

-If SSJ Vegetto was even 40-50% of Beerus, Goku would have seriously considered taking the route of fusion.

-SSJ4 Gogeta was able to toy with Omega Shenron, but Whis was able to completely stop Beerus in his tracks with a mere chop. With that, it's seems pretty plausible to me that Whis is at the very least marginally stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta.

Based on those points, the following numbers sound about right to me:

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 14
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Freeza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5

This sounds reasonable to me, although I'd place SSJ4 Gogeta lower.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

Is that true though? The guidebook says this, but the series itself seems to contradict this.

In GT, SS3 Goku was stated to be the mightiest Saiyan, and Vegeta-Baby was much stronger than him. After he transformed into Super Baby 1, he said that he has now obtained the greatest of Saiya power, and Goku says that he has never felt such power before. This seems to imply that Super Baby 1 is the strongest being that ever existed in the series (Super Vegetto held the title before), since Vegeta-Baby was already the currently strongest, and then he became even stronger by transforming into Super Baby 2, and then SS4 Goku surpassed him. Which means that SS4 Goku is far stronger than Super Vegetto.

Then again, the guidebook doesn't literally say that Super Vegetto is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku, it just says that Vegetto in general is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. This can be interpreted in multiple ways, such as a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto being perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku (since SS3 is the highest form he should be able to reach), or Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than a hypothetical SS4 Goku from Boo arc (the time that Vegetto existed). But then again, it can be wrong as well. Don't forget that this statement doesn't exist in the GT Pefect Files, but from a special section in the GT TV Special Animanga, so the source can be considered questionable. And let's not forget that the series itself is above the guidebooks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Is that true though? The guidebook says this, but the series itself seems to contradict this.

In GT, SS3 Goku was stated to be the mightiest Saiyan, and Vegeta-Baby was much stronger than him. After he transformed into Super Baby 1, he said that he has now obtained the greatest of Saiya power, and Goku says that he has never felt such power before. This seems to imply that Super Baby 1 is the strongest being that ever existed in the series (Super Vegetto held the title before), since Vegeta-Baby was already the currently strongest, and then he became even stronger by transforming into Super Baby 2, and then SS4 Goku surpassed him. Which means that SS4 Goku is far stronger than Super Vegetto.

Then again, the guidebook doesn't literally say that Super Vegetto is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku, it just says that Vegetto in general is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. This can be interpreted in multiple ways, such as a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto being perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku (since SS3 is the highest form he should be able to reach), or Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than a hypothetical SS4 Goku from Boo arc (the time that Vegetto existed). But then again, it can be wrong as well. Don't forget that this statement doesn't exist in the GT Pefect Files, but from a special section in the GT TV Special Animanga, so the source can be considered questionable. And let's not forget that the series itself is above the guidebooks.

And, to add on to all of this, Goku called Super Vegeta-Baby 1 the greatest Ki he's ever felt. There is a sufficient amount of evidence to infer General Rild is even stronger than Gohan-Boo, so that'd leave only Super Vegetto to be surpassed in this instance.

I wouldn't waste your time though, you'll just be called a "biased GT fanboy".

While I can agree SVB1 being above Super Vegetto isn't fact, it is a valid interpretation.

[supercat]

It's not even about speed and/or other visual feats. Although quite subtle, there were a handful of hints throughout GT and BoG that basically point towards GT characters (with the exclusion of SSJ4 Gogeta) being below Beerus.

While pure speculation at this point, I still find feasibility behind these theories.

Simply put, when I consider the following points, things begin to make a lot more sense.

-SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

-SSG Goku was on fighting terms with Beerus. Therefore, it's safe to assume that SSG Goku also far outshines SSJ Vegetto / SSJ4 Goku.

-SSJ4 Goku (who I feel is superior to SSJ Vegetto, but worlds below Beerus) was able to endure the devastating attacks of Omega Shenron. Meaning, the gap between the dragon and SSJ4 Goku, was likely a good amount smaller than the gap between SSJ Vegetto and Beerus. Although I consider SSJ4 Goku a decent amount above SSJ Vegetto, due to the large gap between the latter and Beerus, I'm inclined to believe that the mighty dragon is weaker than the destructive feline. If SSJ4 Goku was put in the unfortunate circumstance of having to take on Beerus, unlike how his fight with Omega Shenron went, he likely would have been one-shotted or beat down in a matter of seconds.

-If SSJ Vegetto was even 40-50% of Beerus, Goku would have seriously considered taking the route of fusion.

-SSJ4 Gogeta was able to toy with Omega Shenron, but Whis was able to completely stop Beerus in his tracks with a mere chop. With that, it's seems pretty plausible to me that Whis is at the very least marginally stronger than SSJ4 Gogeta.

Based on those points, the following numbers sound about right to me:

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 14
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Freeza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5

This sounds reasonable to me, although I'd place SSJ4 Gogeta lower.

Yes, you're right. While SSJ4 Gogeta was able to casually humiliate Omega Shenron, I personally feel that even that fight pales in comparison to what Whis was able to dish out on Beerus. Effortlessly taking down a powerhouse like Beerus with a simple chop behind the neck is anything but a small feat. In fact, at this point, I can't quite think of a more impressive display of power.

New numbers (everything kept the same except SSJ4 Gogeta):

Whis: 15
SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 (12.5 or 13 at the best)
Beerus: 10
Omega Shenron 8 - 8.5
Golden Frieza: 8
SSGSS Goku / SSGSS Vegeta: 7.5
SSG Goku (BoG): 6
Super 17 (energy absorbed): 5.5
SSJ4 Goku: 4.5
SSJ Vegetto: 2 - 2.5

-SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

Is that true though? The guidebook says this, but the series itself seems to contradict this.

In GT, SS3 Goku was stated to be the mightiest Saiyan, and Vegeta-Baby was much stronger than him. After he transformed into Super Baby 1, he said that he has now obtained the greatest of Saiya power, and Goku says that he has never felt such power before. This seems to imply that Super Baby 1 is the strongest being that ever existed in the series (Super Vegetto held the title before), since Vegeta-Baby was already the currently strongest, and then he became even stronger by transforming into Super Baby 2, and then SS4 Goku surpassed him. Which means that SS4 Goku is far stronger than Super Vegetto.

Then again, the guidebook doesn't literally say that Super Vegetto is perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku, it just says that Vegetto in general is perhaps stronger than a Super Saiyan 4. This can be interpreted in multiple ways, such as a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto being perhaps stronger than SS4 Goku (since SS3 is the highest form he should be able to reach), or Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than a hypothetical SS4 Goku from Boo arc (the time that Vegetto existed). But then again, it can be wrong as well. Don't forget that this statement doesn't exist in the GT Pefect Files, but from a special section in the GT TV Special Animanga, so the source can be considered questionable. And let's not forget that the series itself is above the guidebooks.

I always assumed SSJ Vegetto was excluded from that remark. Because Goku himself was essentially Vegetto, it'd be kind of odd to include his "own" power without specifying it. I think if Goku had intended on dragging Vegetto into the comparison, he would have pointed out that Baby Vegeta had even more power than both he and Vegeta had together as Vegetto.

Personally, I feel the strongest power Goku has felt up until Super Baby is either Buuhan or Final Form Rild. However, I'm beginning to wonder if Final Form Rild is even anywhere near Buuhan.

Regardless, Base Rild being stronger than Buuhan seems completely out of the question. If Goku was in fact comparing the machine mutant to Buuhan, he likely would have mentioned the fact that Rild was even more powerful than Buu after he had taken the powers of Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. In addition, Buuhan's power isn't solely his own, so it would make a lot more sense for Goku to be referring to Kid Buu (the Buu he remembers fighting) or even Mr. Buu.

If anything, Baby Vegeta being marginally above Buuhan seems pretty feasible to me.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

How is Base Rild being above Gohan-Boo completely out of the question? Goku doesn't have to match your words for his comparison to mean Gohan-Boo.

I agree it's a bit silly, but most evidence supports it, and, personally, I don't see the writers putting so much hype around a villain if he's weaker than the last major villain.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I always assumed SSJ Vegetto was excluded from that remark. Because Goku himself was essentially Vegetto, it'd be kind of odd to include his "own" power without specifying it. I think if Goku had intended on dragging Vegetto into the comparison, he would have pointed out that Baby Vegeta had even more power than both he and Vegeta had together as Vegetto.

Goku not including himself has happened before with Janenba, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Goku is the strongest current Saiyan, but the strongest Saiyan that ever existed was Vegetto. If Vegeta-Baby had already surpassed the current strongest Saiyan, why would he say that he had now obtained the greatest of Saiya power? Wouldn't that mean that he has now surpassed any Saiyan that ever existed, since he had already surpassed every Saiyan that already exists?

Personally, I feel the strongest power Goku has felt up until Super Baby is either Buuhan or Final Form Rild. However, I'm beginning to wonder if Final Form Rild is even anywhere near Buuhan.

Regardless, Base Rild being stronger than Buuhan seems completely out of the question. If Goku was in fact comparing the machine mutant to Buuhan, he likely would have mentioned the fact that Rild was even more powerful than Buu after he had taken the powers of Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. In addition, Buuhan's power isn't solely his own, so it would make a lot more sense for Goku to be referring to Kid Buu (the Buu he remembers fighting) or even Mr. Buu.

If anything, Baby Vegeta being marginally above Buuhan seems pretty feasible to me.

In the anime, Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan Boo. Unless if Goku means Mr. Boo (who is the current Majin Boo), Rild should be stronger than Gohan Boo.

[Friezacooler]

@Saiyan007 1. based on the fact Beerus flew several thousand light years in under 2 mins in DBSuper ep 2 Gt characters may be FTL but not to that degree

2. @Polyphase Avatron - Of course I do think they are stronger than GT characters.

3. @supercat -SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

1. Nothing suggest that GT can or can't go those speed so you are just assuming things.

2. This link disagrees with you claiming ssj gogeta will defeat vegetto http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg

3 let me know if a god tier character can do anything like the negative karma ball lol.

[Saiyan007]

That's not how it works If Someone in DBSuper blew up a multiverse are you going to say they can't beat Gt becuase Gt has never done that?

You can't show proof that Gt is that fast so they are simply slower you need evidence to back up your claims

[supercat]

How is Base Rild being above Gohan-Boo completely out of the question? Goku doesn't have to match your words for his comparison to mean Gohan-Boo.

I agree it's a bit silly, but most evidence supports it, and, personally, I don't see the writers putting so much hype around a villain if he's weaker than the last major villain.

Why would Goku be referring to a form of Buu who's not even entirely made up of his own power, without indicating it? A few extra lines to acknowledge Rild's power over the combined powers of Buu, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks would only boost the credibility behind the machine mutant's strength that much more.

If we try to incorporate power scaling all the way from EoZ to the events of M2, I personally feel that there is far more logic to deem Base Rild as Kid Buu tier. Additionally, Kid Buu's battle with Goku was probably the Saiyan's most memorable fight with all the Buus. Therefore, it's quite feasible to believe that he would be making a reference to his most notable battle.

The alternative is Mr. Buu, which I personally don't find too far-fetched either, as this was the only form of Buu that was still present.

I always assumed SSJ Vegetto was excluded from that remark. Because Goku himself was essentially Vegetto, it'd be kind of odd to include his "own" power without specifying it. I think if Goku had intended on dragging Vegetto into the comparison, he would have pointed out that Baby Vegeta had even more power than both he and Vegeta had together as Vegetto.

Goku not including himself has happened before with Janenba, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Goku is the strongest current Saiyan, but the strongest Saiyan that ever existed was Vegetto. If Vegeta-Baby had already surpassed the current strongest Saiyan, why would he say that he had now obtained the greatest of Saiya power? Wouldn't that mean that he has now surpassed any Saiyan that ever existed, since he had already surpassed every Saiyan that already exists?

Personally, I feel the strongest power Goku has felt up until Super Baby is either Buuhan or Final Form Rild. However, I'm beginning to wonder if Final Form Rild is even anywhere near Buuhan.

Regardless, Base Rild being stronger than Buuhan seems completely out of the question. If Goku was in fact comparing the machine mutant to Buuhan, he likely would have mentioned the fact that Rild was even more powerful than Buu after he had taken the powers of Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks. In addition, Buuhan's power isn't solely his own, so it would make a lot more sense for Goku to be referring to Kid Buu (the Buu he remembers fighting) or even Mr. Buu.

If anything, Baby Vegeta being marginally above Buuhan seems pretty feasible to me.

In the anime, Pure Boo is stronger than Gohan Boo. Unless if Goku means Mr. Boo (who is the current Majin Boo), Rild should be stronger than Gohan Boo.

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Regardless, even if we assume that Super Baby Vegeta has marginally surpassed SSJ Vegetto, SSJ4 Goku doesn't have to be worlds above his former fusion. As I've indicated before, I personally feel that SSJ4 Goku is indeed stronger than SSJ Vegetto. Although I don't envision their gap being substantial, I do feel that the former does have some degree of power over the latter.

Even in the anime, it's really hard for me to believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, as that would mean SSJ3 Goku is also above the latter. I know Goku did mention in the anime that Kid Buu was at a completely different level from the other Buus, I feel he was excluding Buuhan, Buutenks, and even Buuccolo. Again, these Buus aren't representing only their individual powers, but the combined powers of the fighters they've absorbed. However, anime Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu may make a bit more sense. Even when all is said and done, manga Kid Buu's power being used as a comparison to Rild seems to hold the most feasibility.

If we really want to go with the assumption that Kid Buu > Buuhan in the anime (which I personally have no problem with), then we could assume that Rild was being compared to Mr. Buu.

@Saiyan007 1. based on the fact Beerus flew several thousand light years in under 2 mins in DBSuper ep 2 Gt characters may be FTL but not to that degree

2. @Polyphase Avatron - Of course I do think they are stronger than GT characters.

3. @supercat -SSJ Vegetto was leagues below Beerus but considered somewhere near SSJ4 Goku.

1. Nothing suggest that GT can or can't go those speed so you are just assuming things.

2. This link disagrees with you claiming ssj gogeta will defeat vegetto http://i.imgur.com/dli02Yx.jpg

3 let me know if a god tier character can do anything like the negative karma ball lol.

As I've mentioned before, I don't put much stock into visual feats for pretty obvious reasons. Nappa's initial attack on the city seemingly causing more damage than some of the blasts fired in the Buu arc should say something. Let's also not forget how Frieza, who arguably holds the title (in DBZ) in best feats and explosions, had a trivial battle power in comparison to the feat less androids 17 and 18.

In any case, not even the Negative Karma Ball seemed spectacular enough to automatically gift Omega Shenron with the privilege of being stronger than Beerus. What suggests that the collectively gathered evil energy within the ball is even powerful enough to overwhelm Beerus and Whis after the implications we've gotten through power scaling?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Hmm... I never thought of it like that. That's actually very possible, and if we take the guidebook statement into account, it would mean this is actually the case.

Even in the anime, it's really hard for me to believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, as that would mean SSJ3 Goku is also above the latter. I know Goku did mention in the anime that Kid Buu was at a completely different level from the other Buus, I feel he was excluding Buuhan, Buutenks, and even Buuccolo. Again, these Buus aren't representing only their individual powers, but the combined powers of the fighters they've absorbed. However, anime Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu may make a bit more sense. Even when all is said and done, manga Kid Buu's power being used as a comparison to Rild seems to hold the most feasibility.

Well, if Goku didn't include Piccolo Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo, then he shouldn't include any other Boo either, since Fat Boo had the Kaioshins inside him, and Evil Boo had Boo inside him. Plus, Goku isn't the only one who says that Pure Boo is the strongest, Rou Kaioshin & the Narrator say this as well, so it sounds like they really intended to send the messege that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo, without exceptions.

If we really want to go with the assumption that Kid Buu > Buuhan in the anime (which I personally have no problem with), then we could assume that Rild was being compared to Mr. Buu.

Goku talking about Mr. Boo is possible, but it doesn't feel like this to me. It makes far more sense for Goku to compare Rild with his former mightiest enemy, rather than a random ally.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Why would Goku be referring to a form of Buu who's not even entirely made up of his own power, without indicating it? A few extra lines to acknowledge Rild's power over the combined powers of Buu, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks would only boost the credibility behind the machine mutant's strength that much more.

Because that's a mouthful and unnecessary?

If we try to incorporate power scaling all the way from EoZ to the events of M2, I personally feel that there is far more logic to deem Base Rild as Kid Buu tier. Additionally, Kid Buu's battle with Goku was probably the Saiyan's most memorable fight with all the Buus. Therefore, it's quite feasible to believe that he would be making a reference to his most notable battle.

What is the logic behind Rild being Pure Boo tier? How does power scaling support that case? Power scaling supports Goku getting a huge increase in space which would make Pure Boo impossible to fit (although I know you ignore all of the statements that have Mega Cannon Sigma > SS Goku just because).

Rild is also stronger than a trained Gohan, who was already stronger than Pure Boo in Z.

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Then why would he ask for more power to transform less than a minute later?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Then why would he ask for more power to transform less than a minute later?

The power he received to become Super Baby 2 wasn't Saiya power.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Yes, you're right. While SSJ4 Gogeta was able to casually humiliate Omega Shenron, I personally feel that even that fight pales in comparison to what Whis was able to dish out on Beerus. Effortlessly taking down a powerhouse like Beerus with a simple chop behind the neck is anything but a small feat. In fact, at this point, I can't quite think of a more impressive display of power.

I think if Beerus was seriously attacking Whis with all of his effort (not just randomly freaking out from eating some spicy food) he could probably land some hits/dodge a few attacks before being defeated.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The power he received to become Super Baby 2 wasn't Saiya power.

...Your point? Super Baby 2 is still a greater "Saiyan power" than Super Baby 1, since he is still a Saiyan.

Regardless, I doubt that was the intent of the quote, since Goku says "It's true!" after Baby says he's the greatest of Saiyan powers, and I doubt Goku was having the same thought as Vegeta-Baby that you're trying to propose.

[Hitiro]

Goku not including himself has happened before with Janenba, but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Goku is the strongest current Saiyan, but the strongest Saiyan that ever existed was Vegetto. If Vegeta-Baby had already surpassed the current strongest Saiyan, why would he say that he had now obtained the greatest of Saiya power? Wouldn't that mean that he has now surpassed any Saiyan that ever existed, since he had already surpassed every Saiyan that already exists?

It could just be that Goku is still comparable to Bebi Vegeta in this scenario. While it is clear that Bebi Vegeta is stronger than SSJ3 Goku it is only after he transforms that their battle powers are distinct enough for him to say he has the strongest Saiya power. Like how it is clear that Vegeta and Goku had surpassed SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan yet we still get comments like the one Piccolo made where it says "he may have surpassed even Gohan back then." Having the greatest Saiya power does not need to include characters that don't exist any more.

If the current world champion at boxing were to die right now the strongest Boxer in the world would be the #2 boxer. Right? You wouldn't still continue to call someone the best in the world if they cease to exist any more. Look at Dragon Ball Super. It states Pure Boo is the strongest in the universe there. Does that mean Pure Boo was stronger than Boohan? I don't think so. Does it also mean that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ Vegetto? I also don't think so. It would just mean that, at the time, there was nobody to rival Pure Boo.

[Friezacooler]

If the current world champion at boxing were to die right now the strongest Boxer in the world would be the #2 boxer. Right? You wouldn't still continue to call someone the best in the world if they cease to exist any more. Look at Dragon Ball Super. It states Pure Boo is the strongest in the universe there. Does that mean Pure Boo was stronger than Boohan? I don't think so. Does it also mean that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ Vegetto? I also don't think so. It would just mean that, at the time, there was nobody to rival Pure Boo.

Unless Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku have become even stronger cause of the effects of the fusion, just like when Goku ssj4 and Vegeta defused from Gogeta ssj4. their power has risen to match Syn/ Omega Shenron if I remember. Vegetto and Buuhan might have increased those 3 their individual powers even beyond their current Fusions.

[Hitiro]

If the current world champion at boxing were to die right now the strongest Boxer in the world would be the #2 boxer. Right? You wouldn't still continue to call someone the best in the world if they cease to exist any more. Look at Dragon Ball Super. It states Pure Boo is the strongest in the universe there. Does that mean Pure Boo was stronger than Boohan? I don't think so. Does it also mean that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ Vegetto? I also don't think so. It would just mean that, at the time, there was nobody to rival Pure Boo.

Unless Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku have become even stronger cause of the effects of the fusion, just like when Goku ssj4 and Vegeta defused from Gogeta ssj4. their power has risen to match Syn/ Omega Shenron if I remember. Vegetto and Buuhan might have increased those 3 their individual powers even beyond their current Fusions.

If that were the case then would Goten and Trunks not be gods already because they had already fused 4 times for battle purposes. You would literally have a scenario like this:

Fusion 1

Goten: 1
Trunks: 1

Gotenks: (1+1)*8 = 16

Fusion 2

Goten: 16
Trunks: 16

Gotenks: (16+16)*8 = 256

Fusion 3

Goten: 256
Trunks: 256

Gotenks: (256+256)*8 = 4,096

Fusion 4

Goten: 4,096
Trunks: 4,096

Gotenks: (4,096+4,096)*8 = 65,536

^This is just including battle fusions, who knows how many times they fused in the RoSaT with 2 weeks of training. If the fusions increased their strength they would have long beaten Evil Boo.

[supercat]

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Hmm... I never thought of it like that. That's actually very possible, and if we take the guidebook statement into account, it would mean this is actually the case.

Even in the anime, it's really hard for me to believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, as that would mean SSJ3 Goku is also above the latter. I know Goku did mention in the anime that Kid Buu was at a completely different level from the other Buus, I feel he was excluding Buuhan, Buutenks, and even Buuccolo. Again, these Buus aren't representing only their individual powers, but the combined powers of the fighters they've absorbed. However, anime Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu may make a bit more sense. Even when all is said and done, manga Kid Buu's power being used as a comparison to Rild seems to hold the most feasibility.

Well, if Goku didn't include Piccolo Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo, then he shouldn't include any other Boo either, since Fat Boo had the Kaioshins inside him, and Evil Boo had Boo inside him. Plus, Goku isn't the only one who says that Pure Boo is the strongest, Rou Kaioshin & the Narrator say this as well, so it sounds like they really intended to send the messege that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo, without exceptions.

If we really want to go with the assumption that Kid Buu > Buuhan in the anime (which I personally have no problem with), then we could assume that Rild was being compared to Mr. Buu.

Goku talking about Mr. Boo is possible, but it doesn't feel like this to me. It makes far more sense for Goku to compare Rild with his former mightiest enemy, rather than a random ally.

Well I don't think Goku was even aware that Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta) was the form that Buu took on after absorbing Dai Kaioshin. Without that knowledge, he would also assume that Super Buu is 100% Buu.

Regardless of where anime Kid Buu stands, I feel base Rild was being compared to manga Kid Buu.

Buuhan > Buutenks > / = Final Form Rild > Second Form Rild = Super Buu > Kid Buu or Mr. Buu sounds the most reasonable to me.

Why would Goku be referring to a form of Buu who's not even entirely made up of his own power, without indicating it? A few extra lines to acknowledge Rild's power over the combined powers of Buu, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks would only boost the credibility behind the machine mutant's strength that much more.

Because that's a mouthful and unnecessary?

If we try to incorporate power scaling all the way from EoZ to the events of M2, I personally feel that there is far more logic to deem Base Rild as Kid Buu tier. Additionally, Kid Buu's battle with Goku was probably the Saiyan's most memorable fight with all the Buus. Therefore, it's quite feasible to believe that he would be making a reference to his most notable battle.

What is the logic behind Rild being Pure Boo tier? How does power scaling support that case? Power scaling supports Goku getting a huge increase in space which would make Pure Boo impossible to fit (although I know you ignore all of the statements that have Mega Cannon Sigma > SS Goku just because).

Rild is also stronger than a trained Gohan, who was already stronger than Pure Boo in Z.

Super Baby Vegeta's statement could mean that he personally has reached the greatest Saiyan power that he himself could possibly conceive of. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that he's surpassed every Saiyan at that particular moment. He could have long hit such a milestone, but feels only now he's reached the pinnacle of his power.

Then why would he ask for more power to transform less than a minute later?

It really wouldn't make sense not to elaborate on the fact that Rild was stronger than Buu plus four other fighters, considering how the vast majority of Buuhan's power primarily consisted of Gohan.

Excluding BoG and FnF, Uub (EoZ) is probably not even Perfect Cell tier, considering how badly he struggled against Base Goku. My guess is that the kid is somewhere in the realm of Imperfect Cell and possibly Semi-perfect Cell tier on the exceptionally high end. In fact, Base Goku (EoZ) sitting somewhere in the neighborhood of Imperfect Cell sounds quite feasible, considering how the Saiyan was still notably below Frieza in the Buu arc.

I feel the time that Uub takes his brave stand against Super Baby Vegeta 2, is when he's finally realized his full potential of reaching Kid Buu tier.

If Base Rild truly wielded a power greater than Buuhan's, Base Gohan would have been one-shotted. However, even after taking several hits from the machine mutant, Gohan is alive and well. One could even argue that he was unscathed.

Super Baby Vegeta was asking for power from his Tuffles. A completely different source of energy from Saiyan power.

The power he received to become Super Baby 2 wasn't Saiya power.

...Your point? Super Baby 2 is still a greater "Saiyan power" than Super Baby 1, since he is still a Saiyan.

Regardless, I doubt that was the intent of the quote, since Goku says "It's true!" after Baby says he's the greatest of Saiyan powers, and I doubt Goku was having the same thought as Vegeta-Baby that you're trying to propose.

The energy that fueled him to become Super Baby Vegeta 2 didn't consist of Saiyan energy, so it's definitely not Saiyan power.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It really wouldn't make sense not to elaborate on the fact that Rild was stronger than Buu plus four other fighters, considering how the vast majority of Buuhan's power primarily consisted of Gohan.

Excluding BoG and FnF, Uub (EoZ) is probably not even Perfect Cell tier, considering how badly he struggled against Base Goku. My guess is that the kid is somewhere in the realm of Imperfect Cell and possibly Semi-perfect Cell tier on the exceptionally high end. In fact, Base Goku (EoZ) sitting somewhere in the neighborhood of Imperfect Cell sounds quite feasible, considering how the Saiyan was still notably below Freeza in the Buu arc.

I feel the time that Uub takes his brave stand against Super Baby Vegeta 2, is when he's finally realized his full potential of reaching Kid Buu tier.

If Base Rild truly wielded a power greater than Buuhan's, Base Gohan would have been one-shotted. However, even after taking several hits from the machine mutant, Gohan is alive and well. One could even argue that he was unscathed.

Super Baby Vegeta was asking for power from his Tuffles. A completely different source of energy from Saiyan power.

Regardless, Gohan-Boo is still "Boo" in Goku's mind, and everyone else's mind. Goku's words not matching yours isn't proof of Rild's power being below Gohan-Boo's.

EOZ Oob is debatable / subjective, so I won't touch that.

Oob at the Beginning of GT should be at least as strong as Pure Boo, in my opinion. Goku waited 15 years to have his rematch with Oob (Pure Boo's reincarnation) and, IMO, it's silly for him to finish Oob's training with Oob ending up multiple times weaker than Pure Boo. When has Goku ever settled for less than what he was expecting?

So Base Goku could potentially be around or above Pure Boo, then it's shown via feats and statements that he gets a huge increase in space where he surpasses his initial Super Saiyan form in base.

Why would Base Gohan be one-shotted if Rild was stronger than Gohan-Boo? Gotenks-Boo was initially using full effort against Gohan when they fought, and Gohan was managing to survive. Then we know he trained for at least 5 years, to at least maintain his strength or make small improvements. Him lasting against someone around Gohan-Boo makes sense.

The energy that fueled him to become Super Baby Vegeta 2 didn't consist of Saiyan energy, so it's definitely not Saiyan power.

But Super Vegeta-Baby 2 himself is still a Saiyan, so he'd be a "Saiyan power".

Also, Vegeta-Baby says he's not obtained the greatest of Saiyan powers, not greatest possible Saiyan power.

[dragonballer]

If the current world champion at boxing were to die right now the strongest Boxer in the world would be the #2 boxer. Right? You wouldn't still continue to call someone the best in the world if they cease to exist any more. Look at Dragon Ball Super. It states Pure Boo is the strongest in the universe there. Does that mean Pure Boo was stronger than Boohan? I don't think so. Does it also mean that Pure Boo was stronger than SSJ Vegetto? I also don't think so. It would just mean that, at the time, there was nobody to rival Pure Boo.

Unless Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku have become even stronger cause of the effects of the fusion, just like when Goku ssj4 and Vegeta defused from Gogeta ssj4. their power has risen to match Syn/ Omega Shenron if I remember. Vegetto and Buuhan might have increased those 3 their individual powers even beyond their current Fusions.

If that were the case then would Goten and Trunks not be gods already because they had already fused 4 times for battle purposes. You would literally have a scenario like this:

Fusion 1

Goten: 1
Trunks: 1

Gotenks: (1+1)*8 = 16

Fusion 2

Goten: 16
Trunks: 16

Gotenks: (16+16)*8 = 256

Fusion 3

Goten: 256
Trunks: 256

Gotenks: (256+256)*8 = 4,096

Fusion 4

Goten: 4,096
Trunks: 4,096

Gotenks: (4,096+4,096)*8 = 65,536

^This is just including battle fusions, who knows how many times they fused in the RoSaT with 2 weeks of training. If the fusions increased their strength they would have long beaten Evil Boo.

they used the fusion dance,goku and vegeta used the potaras,since that fusion would permanent, maybe they got some boost after they separated.

the fusion boost is the only thing that makes the anime coherent. ssj goku was ultimate gohan tier and able to to be sensed in other world when he powered up (only ssj3 and super buu did it).

remember: anime kid buu > gohan buu and maybe anime kid buu > ssj vegetto.the anime gave a "hint" of that,gohan buu only gave vegetto some trouble after he used his power from "inside".