Does anyone else think Super is awful?

[Shuby]

100% disagree with this, DBZ was never Hunter x Hunter or JJBA in that aspect, DB was always filled with Cliches and Togashi and Hirohiko was the men that led certain mangakas to void the typical Shounen cliches.

If u want a series that doesnt have much Shounen cliches, then check Boku no Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Mob Psycho 100.

DBZ invented the "cliches" so it isn't really at fault. As for these other shows, like HxH specifically, what has it done differently?
What makes it so ground breaking? Kite dies and Gon gets an ass-pull powerup. People love to give so much credence to these shows,
but if it was animated like Dragon Ball, would anyone really like it? Would all these qualities shine? Where was the bandwagon for HxH
back in 1999 when it was animated poorly? Wouldn't all of its groundbreaking writing and interesting concepts be able to shine on its own?

Can One Punch Man survive without Madhouse? What would the draw be to these shows if they didn't have seasonal budgets?
I'm not saying they're bad, I just don't find them as amazing and well written as everyone seems to think they are. It's just
eye candy, and people make their justifications for it after the fact.

I see the same thing happening in the American animation fandom, there are elites who hate the same 10 shows but they're
madly in love with Steven Universe, and My Little Pony, and Adventure Time, with little to no contention.

It was wel established how Gon got it,how it was possible for Gon to get those powers, and besides if you receive something big and you lose something big, that is the philosophy in HXH, Gon cannot use Nen anymore... meanwhile future Trunks.... yeah so be quiet. Gon could only use that power on Pitou so even if it was an "asspull" it would have been a small and forgiving asspull but which it isn't then you have to explain how kurapika's power worked on the spiders

[dbzfan7]

It was wel established how Gon got it,how it was possible for Gon to get those powers, and besides if you receive something big and you lose something big, that is the philosophy in HXH, Gon cannot use Nen anymore... meanwhile future Trunks.... yeah so be quiet. Gon could only use that power on Pitou so even if it was an "asspull" it would have been a small and forgiving asspull but which it isn't then you have to explain how kurapika's power worked on the spiders

I don't even like Gon and think he was mostly a bland contradicting character til the Chimera Arc made him more interesting. But even so that wasn't an asspull like Trunks'. Not only have they shown how powerful those kinds of deals can be with Kurapika, but Gon went far beyond that by betting his life and to never use nen again just to win. That's an insane pact. It almost killed him without Alluka to use her wish granting power, and it is something that had major consequences that it can't be exploited. Especially with a dangerous power like Alluka's. Unlike Future Trunks lol bullshit powers which I never thought would ever top Vegeta...but it shat even on that.

As for Super. I think the TFS crew nailed it for me. Super at it's best is awesome and better than the highs of GT. At it's worse, it's even worse than the lowest of GT. So it ranges from awful to bad to mediocre to great depending on the episode.

[Tsufuru]

the reasons you ppl give cant be that "awful" if they dont stop dbs from being entertaining and enjoyable at all.
like the only serios problem i realy have is sometimes and realy only sometimes animation and the way characters get stronger.
you would think whis gives vegeta some extra special training but we get normal roshi level training.
BoG arc was actualy good and goku vs beerus is one of my favourite fights in the whole franchise.
RoF sucks alltogether i cant deny that with good or bad animation.
was a waste of time and money bad move from toei.

[Tsufuru]

sry for double post.
also i wouldnt take universe 6 arc seriosly cuz that was cleary only a appetizer for the real tournament coming soon.

[Boo Machine]

I guess anyone here in this thread should watch this video, i think it is one of the finest review out there, pointing out what is wrong and what is right in Super. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ffdeJ77Bo&t=1546s

You post this video so many times like it's the end all be all review of super that I'm starting to think you might be this Youtube channel.

[Yomi]

I think Shuby has posted the video multiple times and has never gotten a positive response, lol.

I thought it was different people lel.

[Shuby]

I think Shuby has posted the video multiple times and has never gotten a positive response, lol.

I thought it was different people lel.

lol nah, i think the video is great.

[Acetona]

What do you think Gohan's motivation was during Z?

To be honest, none. He's so bland and shallow that I don't even know why he's there. He just goes to battlefiled to become pissed by someone he likes getting their ass handled, and that's it. He never explicitly stated out he fought to protect his loved ones. He pretty much was dragged by the others into the fight.

100% disagree with this, DBZ was never Hunter x Hunter or JJBA in that aspect, DB was always filled with Cliches and Togashi and Hirohiko was the men that led certain mangakas to void the typical Shounen cliches.

If u want a series that doesnt have much Shounen cliches, then check Boku no Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Mob Psycho 100.

Back on topic, Super was awful...2 years ago with the Movie retellings.

2016 has been overall good due to the Trunks Arc, it was overall very entertaining despite the lack of explanation of certain scenes, Shinchiro Miki made most of the scenes better than expected, proving why he is one of the best seiyuus in the industry today.

Ok, I worded it badly. Sorry. I didn't say about EVERY trope, but pretty much some of them which we find in every battle manga. I'm strictly refering to the nakama power one, where they constantly say they're fighting for their friends. Hell, Goku is a douche, he sure gets pissed when his friends die, but he doesn't get stronger by this (except for the Super Saiya-jin transformation, and that transformation had a foreshadow that we knew it would come at sometime). I'm refering to scenes like the Trunks's one, and pretty much all of Saint Seiya and Fairy Tail fight conclusions. It's basically "We have friends, so we're stronger!". Toriyama never did this.

I follow all of the manga you mentioned, except for Mob Psycho 100, which didn't catch my interest. Boku no Hero Academia is as cliché as we could get, as is One Punch-Man. What truly shines on them is the execution. And that's what minds to me, clichés don't bother me (except for the aforementioned one) if they're executed beautifully.

Tbh, Trunks arc has too much things that I dislike to be able to enjoy it. The manga, though, is really good as of now. I could go forever without Rosé and Ikari, I hope the manga don't go that way.

EDIT:

^ think you are missing the point. Dragonball in the minds of many westerners at the time INVENTED those cliches and tropes. You would be hard pressed to have even modern anime fans who could name franchises that did the same themes and tropes on manga/anime prior to the Dragonball franchise.

Obviously DB didn't invent them. That isn't even my case, I've watched and read japanese stuff much older than DB itself.

DBZ invented the "cliches" so it isn't really at fault. As for these other shows, like HxH specifically, what has it done differently?
What makes it so ground breaking? Kite dies and Gon gets an ass-pull powerup. People love to give so much credence to these shows,
but if it was animated like Dragon Ball, would anyone really like it? Would all these qualities shine? Where was the bandwagon for HxH
back in 1999 when it was animated poorly? Wouldn't all of its groundbreaking writing and interesting concepts be able to shine on its own?

Can One Punch Man survive without Madhouse? What would the draw be to these shows if they didn't have seasonal budgets?
I'm not saying they're bad, I just don't find them as amazing and well written as everyone seems to think they are. It's just
eye candy, and people make their justifications for it after the fact.

I see the same thing happening in the American animation fandom, there are elites who hate the same 10 shows but they're
madly in love with Steven Universe, and My Little Pony, and Adventure Time, with little to no contention.

I completely agree with this.

[dbs fanboy]

It was wel established how Gon got it,how it was possible for Gon to get those powers, and besides if you receive something big and you lose something big, that is the philosophy in HXH, Gon cannot use Nen anymore... meanwhile future Trunks.... yeah so be quiet. Gon could only use that power on Pitou so even if it was an "asspull" it would have been a small and forgiving asspull but which it isn't then you have to explain how kurapika's power worked on the spiders

I don't even like Gon and think he was mostly a bland contradicting character til the Chimera Arc made him more interesting. But even so that wasn't an asspull like Trunks'. Not only have they shown how powerful those kinds of deals can be with Kurapika, but Gon went far beyond that by betting his life and to never use nen again just to win. That's an insane pact. It almost killed him without Alluka to use her wish granting power, and it is something that had major consequences that it can't be exploited. Especially with a dangerous power like Alluka's. Unlike Future Trunks lol bullshit powers which I never thought would ever top Vegeta...but it shat even on that.

As for Super. I think the TFS crew nailed it for me. Super at it's best is awesome and better than the highs of GT. At it's worse, it's even worse than the lowest of GT. So it ranges from awful to bad to mediocre to great depending on the episode.

So for you it's an average/mediocre series that can be both enjoyable and painful?

[Freeza9000]

I think Shuby has posted the video multiple times and has never gotten a positive response, lol.

I thought it was different people lel.

lol nah, i think the video is great.

Except the video was only criticizing mainly the first two arcs of Super and has no relevance now.

[dbzfan7]

It was wel established how Gon got it,how it was possible for Gon to get those powers, and besides if you receive something big and you lose something big, that is the philosophy in HXH, Gon cannot use Nen anymore... meanwhile future Trunks.... yeah so be quiet. Gon could only use that power on Pitou so even if it was an "asspull" it would have been a small and forgiving asspull but which it isn't then you have to explain how kurapika's power worked on the spiders

I don't even like Gon and think he was mostly a bland contradicting character til the Chimera Arc made him more interesting. But even so that wasn't an asspull like Trunks'. Not only have they shown how powerful those kinds of deals can be with Kurapika, but Gon went far beyond that by betting his life and to never use nen again just to win. That's an insane pact. It almost killed him without Alluka to use her wish granting power, and it is something that had major consequences that it can't be exploited. Especially with a dangerous power like Alluka's. Unlike Future Trunks lol bullshit powers which I never thought would ever top Vegeta...but it shat even on that.

As for Super. I think the TFS crew nailed it for me. Super at it's best is awesome and better than the highs of GT. At it's worse, it's even worse than the lowest of GT. So it ranges from awful to bad to mediocre to great depending on the episode.

So for you it's an average/mediocre series that can be both enjoyable and painful?

Something like that. It's not the typical average and mediocre label. It's a mixed bag at it's purest. You can find gold and you can find shit. The baseball episode was amazing for example, while the ROF arc was pretty much mostly complete shit. I can find also more amazing moments probably, but that's just a quick example. It's bag full of peanuts and trail mix. You'll get good but also a lot of bad. At it's best it's great. At it's worse it's horrible. It's practically a lottery to decide which side of Super we get. The greatness it brings, or the shitty awfulness it can bring.

[TheMikado]

^ I actually can agree with this except for one thing. The really great parts followed by the really hollow parts makes this 100x worse for me because I can't help but feel cheated as if the show isn't living up to its full potential and we deserve something better. GT was may more consistent across the board in quality, story and pacing.

For me Super feels like an executive production where they hit check boxes to generate revenue and resulting in some episodes and writing where it literally feels like they didn't give a damn at all. I guess I find this personally insulting vas an audience member..

[kinisking]

What do you think Gohan's motivation was during Z?

To be honest, none. He's so bland and shallow that I don't even know why he's there. He just goes to battlefiled to become pissed by someone he likes getting their ass handled, and that's it. He never explicitly stated out he fought to protect his loved ones. He pretty much was dragged by the others into the fight.

He never explicitly stated if but it's pretty obvious. Like you said, he got pissed when someone he likes(loves) is getting their ass handled. His anger is because he wants to protect them. If you weren't able to understand his loved ones were his motivation during Z then that's on you.

Also Gohan was never dragged into a fight past the saiyan saga. He went to Namek on his own, agreed to fight the androids, agreed to fight against Cell, and couldn't wait to fight boo while he was getting his potential unlocked.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I remember saying "seasonal budget" and most of OPM's animation never really impressed me, there were some great effects throughout, but character animation wasn't too impressive until episode 12. It was mostly repeated frames and 1 minute fights. It was a very smart tactic, but I don't find it that impressive.

What did you think I meant by "seasonal budget" how is it a misconception that I said it was done on a seasonal budget. Isn't that what they mean by "average", they're obviously not talking about a weekly Toei show's budget.

Free-Lance or not, the animation made the show, and that's what I meant by the studio contributing to its popularity. So you telling me that "most of the people in that studio were free-lance" isn't really an argument.

Well, you seem to imply unless I misunderstood that if not for the budget and Madhouse there would be nothing in the show that would draw people. I think you are right cause anime fans still stupidly credit Madhouse and the "high budget" for OPM's success which is wrong on every level.

The show demanded great visuals and it got great visuals. That 1 minute fights complaint is silly cause Saitama is "One Punch Man", so he makes short-work of his opponents and that makes perfect sense in the context of the story. Besides, Genos' fights are longer and in addition to great visuals and pretty effects it also moves the story forward.

The animation carried the show and it is an impressive feat, not a bad one. By freelance, I meant self-employed animators who don't work for the studio and only come together when they've connections with either the episode director or the series director. The majority of the animators in Japan are freelance. All the great work was by people not working on Madhouse. That's what I meant. Sorry for not being clear enough.

[SSJ Human]

What do you think Gohan's motivation was during Z?

To be honest, none. He's so bland and shallow that I don't even know why he's there. He just goes to battlefiled to become pissed by someone he likes getting their ass handled, and that's it. He never explicitly stated out he fought to protect his loved ones. He pretty much was dragged by the others into the fight.

He never explicitly stated if but it's pretty obvious. Like you said, he got pissed when someone he likes(loves) is getting their ass handled. His anger is because he wants to protect them. If you weren't able to understand his loved ones were his motivation during Z then that's on you.

Also Gohan was never dragged into a fight past the saiyan saga. He went to Namek on his own, agreed to fight the androids, agreed to fight against Cell, and couldn't wait to fight boo while he was getting his potential unlocked.

I always thought it was better to show than tell. Would you rather everyone just say how he feels about what happens to them or actually show it?

Yeah Gohan did most of his actions on his own so that argument falls like Humpty Dumpty.

[Esfír Dedragón]

I still can't get over some of things the series has introduced (Super Saiyan God, Golden Frieza, Altered Timeline, the garbage-pairing-that-I-will-not-name, etc.)

At this point, rather than get on the hype train whenever new arcs and episodes are shown, I just sit back and watch the train wreck happen and get a few laughs out of it, especially since it's apparently popular enough for Toei and an even more lethargic Toriyama to defecate out more stuff.

I can still appreciate some things that I thought were worthy to be part of the franchise.

[SSJ Human]

I still can't get over some of things the series has introduced (Super Saiyan God, Golden Frieza, Altered Timeline, the garbage-pairing-that-I-will-not-name, etc.)

At this point, rather than get on the hype train whenever new arcs and episodes are shown, I just sit back and watch the train wreck happen and get a few laughs out of it, especially since it's apparently popular enough for Toei and an even more lethargic Toriyama to defecate out more stuff.

I can still appreciate some things that I thought were worthy to be part of the franchise.

Same here, but aside from Hit, the first part of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu, there's not much that I can really say screams to me as something that will stand out in the franchise years to come. People were dismayed by Frost because of how predictable his route went and hate the retellings and I don't blame them.

[Esfír Dedragón]

I still can't get over some of things the series has introduced (Super Saiyan God, Golden Frieza, Altered Timeline, the garbage-pairing-that-I-will-not-name, etc.)

At this point, rather than get on the hype train whenever new arcs and episodes are shown, I just sit back and watch the train wreck happen and get a few laughs out of it, especially since it's apparently popular enough for Toei and an even more lethargic Toriyama to defecate out more stuff.

I can still appreciate some things that I thought were worthy to be part of the franchise.

Same here, but aside from Hit, the first part of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu, there's not much that I can really say screams to me as something that will stand out in the franchise years to come. People were dismayed by Frost because of how predictable his route went and hate the retellings and I don't blame them.

Oh, yes. I was also disappointed in how Frost turned out to be. What a missed opportunity in having a "good Frieza" on the show. Oh, well.

[Acetona]

To be honest, none. He's so bland and shallow that I don't even know why he's there. He just goes to battlefiled to become pissed by someone he likes getting their ass handled, and that's it. He never explicitly stated out he fought to protect his loved ones. He pretty much was dragged by the others into the fight.

He never explicitly stated if but it's pretty obvious. Like you said, he got pissed when someone he likes(loves) is getting their ass handled. His anger is because he wants to protect them. If you weren't able to understand his loved ones were his motivation during Z then that's on you.

Also Gohan was never dragged into a fight past the saiyan saga. He went to Namek on his own, agreed to fight the androids, agreed to fight against Cell, and couldn't wait to fight boo while he was getting his potential unlocked.

I always thought it was better to show than tell. Would you rather everyone just say how he feels about what happens to them or actually show it?

Yeah Gohan did most of his actions on his own so that argument falls like Humpty Dumpty.

And that's it, a character CAN want to protect his friends without having to state it out clearly, like Ichigo from Bleach. And that's where I think Super did wrong, that "I want to protect" quote is terrible.

Also... I totally forgot Boo saga when I said that
Namek and Androids... yeah, my bad... You're right

[Lord Beerus]

I still can't get over some of things the series has introduced (Super Saiyan God, Golden Frieza, Altered Timeline, the garbage-pairing-that-I-will-not-name, etc.)

At this point, rather than get on the hype train whenever new arcs and episodes are shown, I just sit back and watch the train wreck happen and get a few laughs out of it, especially since it's apparently popular enough for Toei and an even more lethargic Toriyama to defecate out more stuff.

I can still appreciate some things that I thought were worthy to be part of the franchise.

Those were introduced before Super's inception.