Is Goku to be blamed if anybody dies in the Tournament?

[HeroR]

The buck stops at Goku. He's the shonen hero of this series! You want to blame everyone else, go ahead, but he was first on the plate, the first to fight, the one who's supposed to be Jesus, Buddha, and Churchill rolled into one, and his selfishiness, arrogance, and negligence, unleashed genocide. Whatever excuse you have, it still happened, it's still on him.

And I was obviously not talking about your post in the second paragraph.

Excuse me, my bad.

Can't tell if you're seriously, honestly. And since when has Goku been called Jesus? In the Freeza Saga in the original Funi dub?

Gohan was supposed to be taking over the main character role in the Buu Saga and he fumble the ball.

[FoolsGil]

The buck stops at Goku. He's the shonen hero of this series! You want to blame everyone else, go ahead, but he was first on the plate, the first to fight, the one who's supposed to be Jesus, Buddha, and Churchill rolled into one, and his selfishiness, arrogance, and negligence, unleashed genocide. Whatever excuse you have, it still happened, it's still on him.

And I was obviously not talking about your post in the second paragraph.

Excuse me, my bad.

Can't tell if you're seriously, honestly. And since when has Goku been called Jesus? In the Freeza Saga in the original Funi dub?

Goku really isn't an analog of Jesus Buddha and Churchill, but I am serious on everything else I said. Goku was supposed to do better. He has done better in fact.

Gohan was supposed to be taking over the main character role in the Buu Saga and he fumble the ball.

No, Toriyama fumbled the ball. He misdirected, and decided the buildup he's been doing since Gohan appeared was for naught and went back to Goku. And even if Gohan was to pull a win at the end, this conversation wouldn't change, except saying that it did work out in the end, though there was still genocide because of Goku.

[HeroR]

Goku really isn't an analog of Jesus Buddha and Churchill, but I am serious on everything else I said. Goku was supposed to do better. He has done better in fact.

Gohan was supposed to be taking over the main character role in the Buu Saga and he fumble the ball.

No, Toriyama fumbled the ball. He misdirected, and decided the buildup he's been doing since Gohan appeared was for naught and went back to Goku. And even if Gohan was to pull a win at the end, this conversation wouldn't change, except saying that it did work out in the end, though there was still genocide because of Goku.

Just because you think Goku should have done better doesn't mean that everyone else is exempt from blame. Goku did what he thought was right, while everyone else around him dropped the ball. How would everyone cope if Goku handled Buu, left, and another enemy did come? Gohan would be weaker and there would be no Gotenks. Only Vegeta would be the powerhouse.

Gohan was the main character, up until Goku's revival. It doesn't matter if Toriyama fumbled it.

[FoolsGil]

Just because you think Goku should have done better doesn't mean that everyone else is exempt from blame.

Blame them they all messed up. But Goku messed up first and was strong enough to stop it before it even started! That means something. You can chalk up Gotenks to inexperience, Goten and Trunks never fought a battle before Buu and were younger than Goku when he went around with Bulma. Gohan? Yes, his stupidity and arrogance because like with Cell he didn't end things when he should have, but I suppose that means he shouldn't have been depended on in the beginning either. As for Majin Vegeta, Goku should have shattered his pride by going SSJ3 and moving on to Babidi. That one is all Goku's fault

Goku did what he thought was right,

Fighting Majin Vegeta without ending it in one SSJ3 punch, was him at his most selfish, arrogant, and negligent. He even threatened Supreme Kai. He did that for himself. Nothing about good or right about that.

Him against Majin Buu? The road to hell is paved with good intentions...He messed up royally.

while everyone else around him dropped the ball. How would everyone cope if Goku handled Buu, left, and another enemy did come? Gohan would be weaker and there would be no Gotenks. Only Vegeta would be the powerhouse.

It's better to lose because you're weak, than lose because your hero is being selfish, arrogant, and negligent, and it's not as if the Buu Saga went smoothly either because of Goku holding back. They barely made it out of that one alive. Buu reached Otherworld, if the remaining team didn't stop Buu there, he would have Zeno'd that universe on his own, starting with the Afterlife. So between Goku handling Buu, and Goku being selfish, arrogant, and negligent, I'm going to go with the former. Buu would not have become what he was if Goku had just did the proper things

Gohan was the main character, up until Goku's revival. It doesn't matter if Toriyama fumbled it.

[/quote]
Actually it does matter if Toriyama fumbled it. It's his story, his creation, if he didn't decide Goku was to win in the end, or maybe if he believed in his character, maybe Goku wouldn't have done all that he did, or maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad.

[HeroR]

Just because you think Goku should have done better doesn't mean that everyone else is exempt from blame.

Blame them they all messed up. But Goku messed up first and was strong enough to stop it before it even started! That means something. You can chalk up Gotenks to inexperience, Goten and Trunks never fought a battle before Buu and were younger than Goku when he went around with Bulma. Gohan? Yes, his stupidity and arrogance because like with Cell he didn't end things when he should have, but I suppose that means he shouldn't have been depended on in the beginning either. As for Majin Vegeta, Goku should have shattered his pride by going SSJ3 and moving on to Babidi. That one is all Goku's fault

Goku did what he thought was right,

Fighting Majin Vegeta without ending it in one SSJ3 punch, was him at his most selfish, arrogant, and negligent. He even threatened Supreme Kai. He did that for himself. Nothing about good or right about that.

Him against Majin Buu? The road to hell is paved with good intentions...He messed up royally.

while everyone else around him dropped the ball. How would everyone cope if Goku handled Buu, left, and another enemy did come? Gohan would be weaker and there would be no Gotenks. Only Vegeta would be the powerhouse.

It's better to lose because you're weak, than lose because your hero is being selfish, arrogant, and negligent, and it's not as if the Buu Saga went smoothly either because of Goku holding back. They barely made it out of that one alive. Buu reached Otherworld, if the remaining team didn't stop Buu there, he would have Zeno'd that universe on his own, starting with the Afterlife. So between Goku handling Buu, and Goku being selfish, arrogant, and negligent, I'm going to go with the former. Buu would not have become what he was if Goku had just did the proper things

Gohan was the main character, up until Goku's revival. It doesn't matter if Toriyama fumbled it.

Actually it does matter if Toriyama fumbled it. It's his story, his creation, if he didn't decide Goku was to win in the end, or maybe if he believed in his character, maybe Goku wouldn't have done all that he did, or maybe things wouldn't have gotten so bad.[/quote]

No, the Supreme Kai messed up first and then Vegeta. Gohan also hold responsibility for not training for seven years, despite Goku leaving the safety of the planet in his hands. So no, it's not all Goku's fault no matter how much you tried to say it is.

You really need to stop quoting because you're not answering the question. How would everyone cope if they kept depending on Goku who is dead?

I think Future Trunks would disagree with you. And Goku wasn't being selfish, arrogant, and negligent. It was literally the exact opposite since if he was selfish and arrogant he would have fought Buu for fun, screw the world and its future.

It doesn't matter if Toriyama fumbled. If we're going with 'the main character holds the most fault' then Gohan deserves most of the blame. You can used 'plot' as an excuse for character screw ups, otherwise you can't debate anything because you can just say plot for everything.

[TheMathemagician]

Yea, there's no denying this one he's definitely to blame, but this is Super Goku; so of course he would do something this stupid and selfish.

Yes, cause Z Goku never pulled a stunt like this before. Lol at "but this is Super Goku" when Z Goku has Goku straight up fully aware that fighting Vegeta would help release Boo. He proceeds to fight Vegeta and choose not to just end it. Goku fucked up here, but lol he never even knew the consequences of asking for a tournament, as opposed to him straight up knowing what will happen if he fought Majin Vegeta.

He has before, but not to this extent. It's like he has total disregard for life now and your Vegeta example isnt an actual good one. Since it's Vegeta who started the whole thing in the first place, and if he didn't fight Vegeta it would be more innocent people killed; so what other choice did he have. Going SSJ3 would have stopped Buu from being hatched, but would've destroyed Vegeta's pride and that what he holds most dear. So the choices he made at the time seem all right to me.

No it is a good example because Goku is partly to blame for Boo being released. I'm not saying he shouldn't have fought Vegeta, I'm saying he shouldn't have humored him and just went SSJ3. Goku knew very well what would happen unlike here where he had no idea this consequence would come from him pushing for the tournament. The consequences here are worse, but his actions isn't worse than what he did back in the Boo Saga. Lol so Vegeta's pride is far more important than a evil creation that will kill everyone? It's all right back then when he knew very well that destruction would come from Boo being hatched, but here where he was also being selfish and reckless it's a problem when he doesn't know the consequences of the tournament? Hardly a fair judgment.

[FoolsGil]

No, the Supreme Kai messed up first and then Vegeta. Gohan also hold responsibility for not training for seven years, despite Goku leaving the safety of the planet in his hands. So no, it's not all Goku's fault no matter how much you tried to say it is.

A big part of it is Goku's fault. Mince all you want to make yourself seem, it doesn't matter. We've all watched Z and/or Kai or read the manga. We know the score.

You really need to stop quoting because you're not answering the question. How would everyone cope if they kept depending on Goku who is dead?

Well, they wouldn't. It would be an arrested development, their inability to cope. So if they stop training and developing new attacks, next opponent who appears? They're dead. Fine

I think Future Trunks would disagree with you. And Goku wasn't being selfish, arrogant, and negligent. It was literally the exact opposite since if he was selfish and arrogant he would have fought Buu for fun, screw the world and its future.

You can be selfish, arrogant, and negligent in many ways. Your view is not less or more correct than mine.

It doesn't matter if Toriyama fumbled. If we're going with 'the main character holds the most fault' then Gohan deserves most of the blame. You can used 'plot' as an excuse for character screw ups, otherwise you can't debate anything because you can just say plot for everything.

Well I won't use plot. Gohan didn't train enough. Well maybe now it's Vegeta's fault because he couldn't reach SSJ3 though he trained. and it's Master Roshi's fault because he didn't teach everyone the Mafuba so any of the remaining heroes could have sealed up Buu at any time. Fuck it, let's blame everyone. But you know what? At the end of the day? Goku had the power to stop everything. And you can throw this, and that, and the kitchen sink. and it won't matter. Because in the end, Genocide happened. And while everyone's excuse were this that and the other, Goku had no excuse. He had none. And that's why I blame him more than anyone else.

[sintzu]

Kind of but not really.

If you were doing good in school and you asked your teacher to give everyone a quiz to see how you compare to them but he decided to give you a full on test and who doesn't get more than half it right will fail the course.

In a way it's your fault for bringing the idea up but the bad part of it wasn't.

[SaiyanGod117]

No it is a good example because Goku is partly to blame for Boo being released. I'm not saying he shouldn't have fought Vegeta, I'm saying he shouldn't have humored him and just went SSJ3. Goku knew very well what would happen unlike here where he had no idea this consequence would come from him pushing for the tournament. The consequences here are worse, but his actions isn't worse than what he did back in the Boo Saga. Lol so Vegeta's pride is far more important than a evil creation that will kill everyone? It's all right back then when he knew very well that destruction would come from Boo being hatched, but here where he was also being selfish and reckless it's a problem when he doesn't know the consequences of the tournament? Hardly a fair judgment.

Goku is part of the blame, but Vegeta initiated the whole thing when he submitted himself to Babiddi. That's besides the point though, his decision making can sometimes be selfish and unwise at times, but a least he puts thought of the people first. Like when he didn't when he didn't want to be revived, since he always seems to be a beacon of danger. Or when he didn't defeat Majin Buu, even though he could have, because he wanted the newer generation to take care of themselves and knowing he wouldn't be around forever. The Vegeta examples just further support my stance, in Super all he does is act on impulse instead of thinking rationally. As I said, some of his choices are poor and could've been thought out better, but it adds to this character that he isn't a man without a plan.

[Ki Breaker]

It isn't Goku's fault..
What is up with this blame game..
zeno blows up the universe, it's Zeno's fault..

Just because no one can say shit about zeno or do anything to him we have to blame goku?

The blame game never ends, better take the main culprit and roll with it

[Low Tone G]

It isn't Goku's fault..
What is up with this blame game..
zeno blows up the universe, it's Zeno's fault..

Just because no one can say shit about zeno or do anything to him we have to blame goku?

The blame game never ends, better take the main culprit and roll with it

Sorry, but it's Goku's fault to not consider the warning of Beerus and outright tricking him for his selfishness to be satisfied...
Yes, I really I really angry.. I Goku were a real person I wouldn't want his companion for a while.

But we already know and are sure of, Goku is so special that he solve the problem...

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It isn't Goku's fault..
What is up with this blame game..
zeno blows up the universe, it's Zeno's fault..

Just because no one can say shit about zeno or do anything to him we have to blame goku?

The blame game never ends, better take the main culprit and roll with it

Not only that but Zen-Oh was who promised the tournament in the first place. Without him saying that none of this wouldn't happen.... Also Zen-Oh only showed up because of Beerus and Champa and their little tournament so they're ultimately the one's responsible.

[Kanassa]

It isn't Goku's fault..
What is up with this blame game..
zeno blows up the universe, it's Zeno's fault..

Just because no one can say shit about zeno or do anything to him we have to blame goku?

The blame game never ends, better take the main culprit and roll with it

Goku is to blame in part, but it's indirect blame that we can't really fault him for. Like another analogy somone brought up, it's like a friend you've never had any bad interactions with, but your family keep saying that he's gonna get you killed, then you joke about shooting up a building and he goes and does just that. Yes, people you respected or were at least close to did say he was dangerous, but after your interactions, you really had no reason to think as them as more than paranoid. You're partly to blame, but no one's gonna treat you like you should of known.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah...blame Goku and not the psychopath who flicks planets to their destruction in a game described as boring.


He just wanted to have a tournament and his experience with Zeno made him think Zeno is a decent guy.

[Cipher]

It isn't Goku's fault..
What is up with this blame game..
zeno blows up the universe, it's Zeno's fault..

Just because no one can say shit about zeno or do anything to him we have to blame goku?

The blame game never ends, better take the main culprit and roll with it

People aren't saying it's Goku's fault directly when/if a universe is destroyed. That's on Zeno.

People are rightfully taking Goku to task for poking a bear after being warned many, many times by Beerus and Whis that it could have unforeseen repercussions on everyone, and with only his typical selfish motivation for doing so.

Is it Goku's "fault"? Eh, that does get a little slippery. Was he in the wrong? Yeeeeeah.

Beerus and Whis are essentially like, "Look, we have a better perspective on this than you. And you just watched him vaporize a multiverse. Even for the one-in-a-thousand chance egging him on further leads to some sort of multiversal catastrophe, don't do it. You have no compelling reason to take that risk. You're too naive."

Then he does it. He takes that risk. Both because he's trusting and because he's selfish. That's how he is. The more ennui he's saddled with and the more powerful the company he keeps, the more dangerous those traits become.

[Marlowe89]

If a man provokes a well-established murderer to go on a killing spree, would you blame the man or the murderer?

Not saying Goku should be let off the hook obviously, but Zeno's kind of a dick and would be the one responsible for blowing up the losing universes. I don't know if he actually intends to go through with that though - if anything I think he's just motivating the fighters, but if he does intend to do it, perhaps Goku will change his mind.

[Cipher]

Goku is to blame in part, but it's indirect blame that we can't really fault him for. Like another analogy somone brought up, it's like a friend you've never had any bad interactions with, but your family keep saying that he's gonna get you killed, then you joke about shooting up a building and he goes and does just that. Yes, people you respected or were at least close to did say he was dangerous, but after your interactions, you really had no reason to think as them as more than paranoid. You're partly to blame, but no one's gonna treat you like you should of known.

I'm not sure a real-world parallel really applies in this case.

It's more like,

"Goku, we're nuclear physicists. I know you're thinking about touching that bomb, and you can only imagine it'll be fine, but listen, even for the one-in-a-thousand chance you set that bomb off, don't go near it."

"But I really like touching cold things. That bomb looks super cold. You're worrying too much. I'm gonna touch it."

"You have no idea what will happen if you touch that bomb. Wanting to touch a cold thing is not a good reason. Don't fuck around with everyone like this. It doesn't matter how much you love touching cold things. We're lucky it hasn't gone off already."

Then he touches the cold thing.

...Or ... something.

[Totamo]

Beerus and Whis didn't say that zeno was going to do this, they said he was unpredictable and dangerous. Not the same thing.

Goku has played with danger and unpredictability before and has come out on top.

He simply didn't know neither did the other 2 thats why beerus was suspicious when goku told him, its just going to be a simple tournament.

Thats all he wanted

[Cipher]

Beerus and Whis didn't say that zeno was going to do this, they said he was unpredictable and dangerous. Not the same thing.

Goku has played with danger and unpredictability before and has come out on top.

He simply didn't know neither did the other 2 thats why beerus was suspicious when goku told him, its just going to be a simple tournament.

Thats all he wanted

Okay, so then it's like,

"Goku, don't open the mystery box. We have no idea what it does. It could kill everyone."

"Yeah, but it could also have chocolate."

"Does ... does that even matter?"

[Marlowe89]

I'm not sure a real-world parallel really applies in this case.

It's more like,

"Goku, we're nuclear physicists. I know you're thinking about touching that bomb, and you can only imagine it'll be fine, but listen, even for the one-in-a-thousand chance you set that bomb off, don't go near it."

"But I really like touching cold things. That bomb looks super cold. You're worrying too much. I'm gonna touch it."

"You have no idea what will happen if you touch that bomb. Wanting to touch a cold thing is not a good reason. Don't fuck around with everyone like this. It doesn't matter how much you love touching cold things. We're lucky it hasn't gone off already."

Then he touches the cold thing.

...Or ... something.

I don't think that would realistically apply either because Zeno is a living, sentient being, not a bomb.

The most direct and sensible analogy I can think of is warning Jim not to interact with Trevor (sorry to the Trevors out there, this is more of a GTA reference than anything) because Trevor is a loose cannon who kills people simply because he feels like it. Jim is aware of this, but doesn't know that this specific interaction will inevitably cause Trevor to go on a massive rampage that will cost more lives than any of Trevor's other rampages combined. Jim knew he'd be taking a risk, but couldn't possibly predict that something would actually happen on this scale.

So while Jim is ultimately not at all innocent for choosing to interact with Trevor, the blame is mainly and primarily on Trevor himself for committing such a horrendous and arguably unpredictable act.