Has Vegeta been a good character as of recently? I think not.

[JazzMazz]

Any replacement of Vegeta as an archrival should be anime only. Vegeta's working very well in the manga.

But the character doesn't need replacing, he just needs a few simple fixes.

1) Narrow the silly gulf in power between him and Goku.
2) Have him be arrogant, but not delusional. If he only has SSB, don't have him talk as if he can beat Goku SSBKKx20 or Jiren. Have his claims backed up by some evidence. The audience has to say, "Okay, I understand how he could believe that".
3) Give him more shine, allowing Goku to consider him a true rival.
4) New, interesting techniques.
5) Actually use strategy and great skill in battle. He should be matured past the energy spam and just powering through everything given how he's middle aged.
6) Don't have him frustrated so much all the time. Have him be more like when he took control of Pui Pui, cool confident and quiet, and let his fists do the talking. So when he is frustrated, it's more meaningful.
7) Have him mature past his immature fear of showing romantic affection to Bulma.
Stop having him job all the time. There are other characters for that now. Like Hit.
9) Get rid of the armour. It's as logical as protecting steel with tissue paper. The buu saga blue jumpsuit was his best look.
10) When the story dictates that Vegeta should be in focus (like when he fought Toppo), put him in focus. Don't have him exist just to comment on what Goku is doing. Make his screentime effective.

1 and 2.Though I admit his sometimes a complete idiot in this arc, I think 114 was easily the worst offender of flanderizing Vegeta this arc. I'm fine with Vegeta wanting to fight Jiren, logically, that is what he would want to do. Also, I don't think the gulf between Goku and Vegeta is that large. Goku never truly closed the gap in their Blue forms that was created during the Black arc, so he should at least be ahead on that front.
3. I agree with this, but I also think Vegeta being ignored or tossed to the side is actually something that has been acknowledged and expanded upon.
4 and 5. A definite must for the character.
6. I think this is something they could expand upon. Having Vegeta cool off is definitely something I would like to see. Cranky old man Vegeta really has warn out at this point.
7. I think they really have tried to do this. Vegeta wants to be a good father and its been shown that he clearly cares what Bulma thinks of him, espicially when it includes being measured up to Goku.
8. I'm fine with Vegeta losing to the main opponent to make them look good. Its led to some of the most iconic and memorable moments from Super, however, I think the main problem doesn't lie in the fact Vegeta loses to big opponents, rather its more about him getting meaningful victories that demonstrate Vegeta is the real deal.
9. Yeah, I really don't know why they went back to the old Cell armour, at the very least use the designs from ROF.
10. I agree here as well. If Vegeta is going to do something, make sure that something is focused on and actually leads to something.

[HeroR]

1 and 2.Though I admit his sometimes a complete idiot in this arc, I think 114 was easily the worst offender of flanderizing Vegeta this arc. I'm fine with Vegeta wanting to fight Jiren, logically, that is what he would want to do. Also, I don't think the gulf between Goku and Vegeta is that large. Goku never truly closed the gap in their Blue forms that was created during the Black arc, so he should at least be ahead on that front.
3. I agree with this, but I also think Vegeta being ignored or tossed to the side is actually something that has been acknowledged and expanded upon.
4 and 5. A definite must for the character.
6. I think this is something they could expand upon. Having Vegeta cool off is definitely something I would like to see. Cranky old man Vegeta really has warn out at this point.
7. I think they really have tried to do this. Vegeta wants to be a good father and its been shown that he clearly cares what Bulma thinks of him, espicially when it includes being measured up to Goku.
8. I'm fine with Vegeta losing to the main opponent to make them look good. Its led to some of the most iconic and memorable moments from Super, however, I think the main problem doesn't lie in the fact Vegeta loses to big opponents, rather its more about him getting meaningful victories that demonstrate Vegeta is the real deal.
9. Yeah, I really don't know why they went back to the old Cell armour, at the very least use the designs from ROF.
10. I agree here as well. If Vegeta is going to do something, make sure that something is focused on and actually leads to something.

That has very little basic, especially when the advisement for this arc outright called Goku the strongest in U7 with Freeza being his equal, meaning they're not counting the Kaioken. And Vegeta has no feats that puts him above Goku. So saying Vegeta is above Goku is speculation at best.

Not sure how 114 was the worst offender with flanderizing when we have Vegeta hyping himself up throughout this tournament and didn't even give energy for the Spirit Bomb.

At this point I find the Resurrection 'F' armor to be overrated from the way fans pinned over them.

[Jigurashi]

109 legit might be the lowest point of Vegeta this saga imo. It's really saddening that his most memorable moment is him refusing to give energy to the Genki Dama imo. It stuck out to me for the wrong reasons. It was just an incredible low point for the character.

[HeroR]

109 legit might be the lowest point of Vegeta this saga imo. It's really saddening that his most memorable moment is him refusing to give energy to the Genki Dama imo. It stuck out to me for the wrong reasons. It was just an incredible low point for the character.

I think it stuck out since the androids and freaking Freeza pony up energy. I remember reaction videos being shocked that Freeza helped, especially since fans headcanon, yes it's headcanon, Vegeta being Goku's brother-in-arms.

[JazzMazz]

1 and 2.Though I admit his sometimes a complete idiot in this arc, I think 114 was easily the worst offender of flanderizing Vegeta this arc. I'm fine with Vegeta wanting to fight Jiren, logically, that is what he would want to do. Also, I don't think the gulf between Goku and Vegeta is that large. Goku never truly closed the gap in their Blue forms that was created during the Black arc, so he should at least be ahead on that front.
3. I agree with this, but I also think Vegeta being ignored or tossed to the side is actually something that has been acknowledged and expanded upon.
4 and 5. A definite must for the character.
6. I think this is something they could expand upon. Having Vegeta cool off is definitely something I would like to see. Cranky old man Vegeta really has warn out at this point.
7. I think they really have tried to do this. Vegeta wants to be a good father and its been shown that he clearly cares what Bulma thinks of him, espicially when it includes being measured up to Goku.
8. I'm fine with Vegeta losing to the main opponent to make them look good. Its led to some of the most iconic and memorable moments from Super, however, I think the main problem doesn't lie in the fact Vegeta loses to big opponents, rather its more about him getting meaningful victories that demonstrate Vegeta is the real deal.
9. Yeah, I really don't know why they went back to the old Cell armour, at the very least use the designs from ROF.
10. I agree here as well. If Vegeta is going to do something, make sure that something is focused on and actually leads to something.

That has very little basic, especially when the advisement for this arc outright called Goku the strongest in U7 with Freeza being his equal, meaning they're not counting the Kaioken. And Vegeta has no feats that puts him above Goku. So saying Vegeta is above Goku is speculation at best.

Not sure how 114 was the worst offender with flanderizing when we have Vegeta hyping himself up throughout this tournament and didn't even give energy for the Spirit Bomb.

At this point I find the Resurrection 'F' armor to be overrated from the way fans pinned over them.

I can understand Vegeta not wanting to give his energy to help Goku(he doesn't like Goku enough to give him energy, besides, he still helped out), what I don't understand is Vegeta saying he stands at the top of all Saiyans, when he admitted thats a title that goes to Goku, whom he is still trying to surpass. For me, nothing stuck out more as a F$%@ you to the character development he recieved in the Buu arc, espicially since that is what his still striving for, he has no reason to say that.

Also it doesn't matter what some advertisment shows, what matters is what is shown and demonstrated in the actual series.

I don't particularly care for his ROF armour, I just think its better than wearing the same thing he wore over 100 episodes ago.

[HeroR]

I can understand Vegeta not wanting to give his energy to help Goku(he doesn't like Goku enough to give him energy, besides, he still helped out), what I don't understand is Vegeta saying he stands at the top of all Saiyans, when he admitted thats a title that goes to Goku, whom he is still trying to surpass. For me, nothing stuck out more as a F$%@ you to the character development he recieved in the Buu arc, espicially since that is what his still striving for, he has no reason to say that.

Also it doesn't matter what some advertisment shows, what matters is what is shown and demonstrated in the actual series.

I don't particularly care for his ROF armour, I just think its better than wearing the same thing he wore over 100 episodes ago.

Freeza absolutely despises Goku to the point that he visually one-thousand and more was to kill him, yet even he gave energy and this was before he decided to manipulate Goku for his cause. So Vegeta being a stingy bastard stands out. It isn't like he couldn't protect Goku and give energy at the time.

Vegeta said that Goku was number one, in the Buu Saga. Vegeta since then have said that Goku maybe number for now, but he will surpass him and the gods. He even claimed in the Future Trunks Saga after training that he was superior to Goku. So I'm not sure why Vegeta basically repeating what he said in 63 stands out.

And Vegeta hasn't shown anything that put him above Goku in this entire arc. All you have is 'Vegeta beat up Black', when Goku in the same arc took on Merged Zamasu by himself and melted his face when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't together. So going by just the show, Goku was above Vegeta even in the Future Trunks Saga going by feats.

[TBMx]

109 legit might be the lowest point of Vegeta this saga imo. It's really saddening that his most memorable moment is him refusing to give energy to the Genki Dama imo. It stuck out to me for the wrong reasons. It was just an incredible low point for the character.

I wished more characters refused tbh. If Goku wants to have this fighting obcession to the point where he sounds crazy, then at least own it. Don't ask for help the second things don't go his way. He wanted to test his strength against the strongest, so go ahead and test it.

[TBMx]

Goku in the same arc took on Merged Zamasu by himself and melted his face when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't together. So going by just the show, Goku was above Vegeta even in the Future Trunks Saga going by feats.

Goku's Kamehameha did more damage to merged Zamasu than Vegito's Final Kamehameha. So by feats:

Goku > Vegito > Vegeta + Trunks.

[Lord Beerus]

RE: Vegeta's boasting and overconfidence.

Toppo has called Vegeta out on his arrogance. So at least in-universe some of the character are aware of how overconfident Vegeta is acting.

I think that Vegeta has something up his sleeve. Like maybe an extremely powered up version of SSJB he obtained while in the ROSAT before the Tournament began. Or it could all just be shallow and baseless boasting. And Vegeta's extreme confidence in his strength could be just a red herring. Super loves doing shit like that.

[HeroR]

RE: Vegeta's boasting and overconfidence.

Toppo has called Vegeta out on his arrogance. So at least in-universe some of the character are aware of how overconfident Vegeta is acting.

I think that Vegeta has something up his sleeve. Like maybe an extremely powered up version of SSJB he obtained while in the ROSAT before the Tournament began. Or it could all just shallow and baseless boasting. And Vegeta's extreme confidence in his strength could be just a red herring. Super loves doing shit like that.

I leaned on this simply because he called himself number 1 after he saw UI Goku and 116 confirmed he didn't have UI. So Vegeta was talking shit even if he had something that surpasses Blue Kaioken x20, which I have doubts about given his fight with Toppo.

[Lord Beerus]

RE: Vegeta's boasting and overconfidence.

Toppo has called Vegeta out on his arrogance. So at least in-universe some of the character are aware of how overconfident Vegeta is acting.

I think that Vegeta has something up his sleeve. Like maybe an extremely powered up version of SSJB he obtained while in the ROSAT before the Tournament began. Or it could all just be shallow and baseless boasting. And Vegeta's extreme confidence in his strength could be just a red herring. Super loves doing shit like that.

I leaned on this simply because he called himself number 1 after he saw UI Goku and 116 confirmed he didn't have UI. So Vegeta was talking shit even if he had something that surpasses Blue Kaioken x20, which I have doubts about given his fight with Toppo.

I'm holding my reservation for Vegeta vs Toppo because it's just been skirmishes more than anything. But yeah, Vegeta's really talking out of ass if he think he's stronger than UI Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Quite honestly, around here at least, I can't understand most complaints because, well, what exactly do people want/expect?

Do they want Vegeta to give up his driving motivation forever, his desire to surpass Goku, and forget about improving himself?

Do they want Vegeta to be some humbled shell that will always give up and never give it his best go anyways?

Do they want Vegeta to not want to pump himself up to take on powerful opponents as is befitting of a warrior race?

Do they want Vegeta to go against the core tenants of his character, to not be a jerk with a heart of gold who'll never directly help others but do so in his own way?

What do you people want, exactly? Because all I've been seeing around here in this thread are complaints centered around the above, for the most part. It just doesn't make sense, to me. Vegeta hasn't violated any character traits or development. He's still VERY MUCH in character, just more in fighting mode than compassionate mode. And guess what? He's STILL shown his compassionate side, albeit in non-overt ways.

[HeroR]

Quite honestly, around here at least, I can't understand most complaints because, well, what exactly do people want/expect?

Do they want Vegeta to give up his driving motivation forever, his desire to surpass Goku, and forget about improving himself?

Do they want Vegeta to be some humbled shell that will always give up and never give it his best go anyways?

Do they want Vegeta to not want to pump himself up to take on powerful opponents as is befitting of a warrior race?

Do they want Vegeta to go against the core tenants of his character, to not be a jerk with a heart of gold who'll never directly help others but do so in his own way?

What do you people want, exactly? Because all I've been seeing around here in this thread are complaints centered around the above, for the most part. It just doesn't make sense, to me. Vegeta hasn't violated any character traits or development. He's still VERY MUCH in character, just more in fighting mode than compassionate mode. And guess what? He's STILL shown his compassionate side, albeit in non-overt ways.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think you're going too far to the extreme. For the most part, it seems the general idea, which I agree with, is that Vegeta having a rivalry and wanting to be #1 isn't bad in of itself. The problem is that it kind of defines his character and keeps him from developing further. Like how would Vegeta' evolved if he had his own rival instead of always chasing Goku. Vegeta being the 'eternal rival' at this point feels more like a crutched that the story writers won't let go of.

Also, Vegeta calling himself 'the strongest Saiyan' after seeing UI Goku is, well, BS. He isn't and that is assuming if he did surpassed x20 Kaioken Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. It also comes off as shortsighted in a tournament where if you lose, your universe goes bye-bye. That is also the problem with Vegeta challenging Jiren. He should know he has no way to win, but he's willing to lower U7's chances of winning to fight someone he knows he couldn't beat. If he had taken his fight with Toppo more seriously and beat him, this would be a little more forgivable since he would have removed U11's #2 and reduced U11 to just two people.

The general problem overall is that Vegeta has more jerk than gold lately.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Quite honestly, around here at least, I can't understand most complaints because, well, what exactly do people want/expect?

Do they want Vegeta to give up his driving motivation forever, his desire to surpass Goku, and forget about improving himself?

Do they want Vegeta to be some humbled shell that will always give up and never give it his best go anyways?

Do they want Vegeta to not want to pump himself up to take on powerful opponents as is befitting of a warrior race?

Do they want Vegeta to go against the core tenants of his character, to not be a jerk with a heart of gold who'll never directly help others but do so in his own way?

What do you people want, exactly? Because all I've been seeing around here in this thread are complaints centered around the above, for the most part. It just doesn't make sense, to me. Vegeta hasn't violated any character traits or development. He's still VERY MUCH in character, just more in fighting mode than compassionate mode. And guess what? He's STILL shown his compassionate side, albeit in non-overt ways.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think you're going too far to the extreme. For the most part, it seems the general idea, which I agree with, is that Vegeta having a rivalry and wanting to be #1 isn't bad in of itself. The problem is that it kind of defines his character and keeps him from developing further. Like how would Vegeta' evolved if he had his own rival instead of always chasing Goku. Vegeta being the 'eternal rival' at this point feels more like a crutched that the story writers won't let go of.

Also, Vegeta calling himself 'the strongest Saiyan' after seeing UI Goku is, well, BS. He isn't and that is assuming if he did surpassed x20 Kaioken Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. It also comes off as shortsighted in a tournament where if you lose, your universe goes bye-bye. That is also the problem with Vegeta challenging Jiren. He should know he has no way to win, but he's willing to lower U7's chances of winning to fight someone he knows he couldn't beat. If he had taken his fight with Toppo more seriously and beat him, this would be a little more forgivable since he would have removed U11's #2 and reduced U11 to just two people.

The general problem overall is that Vegeta has more jerk than gold lately.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What's so bad about this take on the character?

He's arrogant and cocky, but he has every right to be so! He's gotten so strong that he's managed to reach the realm of the gods, and he's kept up with Goku to a degree that was never thought possible. So what if Goku has surpassed him again? So what if Jiren is an absolute monster? Vegeta is the prince of all Saiyans, a proud warrior that never backs down from a challenge! Saiyans fight the strongest around, that's the defining trait of their people as a whole. To not want to fight someone strong is to basically go against Saiyan biology and culture, something which Vegeta does. NOT. DO.

It's the fact that people think Vegeta kids himself that bugs me. Why do they think this? He's NOT as much of an idiot in this regard as people think. He KNOWS that Jiren is massively strong, but guess what? A strong Saiyan likes the challenge. A strong Saiyan WANTS to fight the strongest around. It'd be OOC for Vegeta to NOT want to fight someone so strong, especially now.

[HeroR]

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. What's so bad about this take on the character?

He's arrogant and cocky, but he has every right to be so! He's gotten so strong that he's managed to reach the realm of the gods, and he's kept up with Goku to a degree that was never thought possible. So what if Goku has surpassed him again? So what if Jiren is an absolute monster? Vegeta is the prince of all Saiyans, a proud warrior that never backs down from a challenge! Saiyans fight the strongest around, that's the defining trait of their people as a whole. To not want to fight someone strong is to basically go against Saiyan biology and culture, something which Vegeta does. NOT. DO.

It's the fact that people think Vegeta kids himself that bugs me. Why do they think this? He's NOT as much of an idiot in this regard as people think. He KNOWS that Jiren is massively strong, but guess what? A strong Saiyan likes the challenge. A strong Saiyan WANTS to fight the strongest around. It'd be OOC for Vegeta to NOT want to fight someone so strong, especially now.

It's 'bad' because it comes off as a regression from where he was in the Future Trunks Saga or even the Champa Saga.

Vegeta can be cocky and sure of his abilities, without being arrogant. Like Goku can be a cocky SOB, but he rarely veers into arrogance. He was a good mixed of this in most of Super, but for some reason his ego went up in this arc. This is despite seeing people like Jiren bodied Goku and stalemate when Goku got a higher form. There is nothing noble about poking the bear for no reason. Jiren is not attack them and he could have waited to thin down the other universes and even take out the #2 of U11 instead of going, 'I'm the stronger!'.

Vegeta has shown in Super that he knows when he's outmatched as seen with Beerus, who he still humbles himself before, yet he's gun-ho about fighting someone possible stronger than Beerus. Keep in mind, Vegeta nearly wet himself when Beerus threatened him in 72. So the whole "Vegeta is the prince of all Saiyans, a proud warrior that never backs down from a challenge! Saiyans fight the strongest around, that's the defining trait of their people as a whole. To not want to fight someone strong is to basically go against Saiyan biology and culture, something which Vegeta does. NOT. DO." is to be frank, BS since Vegeta backed down in Battle of Gods and only felt compelled to fight Beerus after he slapped his wife. He also wanted nothing do with Beerus in 42 and kept telling Bulma to stop mocking Beerus.

He is kidding himself since we know he doesn't have UI, which is the only thing we have seen that did anything to Jiren. For comparison, it's like Goku going form Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and fighting Black and getting bodied, and Vegeta with just Super Saiyan 2 going, I can handle that.

To say, "A strong Saiyan likes the challenge. A strong Saiyan WANTS to fight the strongest around. It'd be OOC for Vegeta to NOT want to fight someone so strong, especially now" is ignoring a lot of stuff within Super.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I can understand Vegeta not wanting to give his energy to help Goku(he doesn't like Goku enough to give him energy, besides, he still helped out), what I don't understand is Vegeta saying he stands at the top of all Saiyans, when he admitted thats a title that goes to Goku, whom he is still trying to surpass. For me, nothing stuck out more as a F$%@ you to the character development he recieved in the Buu arc, espicially since that is what his still striving for, he has no reason to say that.

Also it doesn't matter what some advertisment shows, what matters is what is shown and demonstrated in the actual series.

I don't particularly care for his ROF armour, I just think its better than wearing the same thing he wore over 100 episodes ago.

Freeza absolutely despises Goku to the point that he visually one-thousand and more was to kill him, yet even he gave energy and this was before he decided to manipulate Goku for his cause. So Vegeta being a stingy bastard stands out. It isn't like he couldn't protect Goku and give energy at the time.

Vegeta said that Goku was number one, in the Buu Saga. Vegeta since then have said that Goku maybe number for now, but he will surpass him and the gods. He even claimed in the Future Trunks Saga after training that he was superior to Goku. So I'm not sure why Vegeta basically repeating what he said in 63 stands out.

And Vegeta hasn't shown anything that put him above Goku in this entire arc. All you have is 'Vegeta beat up Black', when Goku in the same arc took on Merged Zamasu by himself and melted his face when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't together. So going by just the show, Goku was above Vegeta even in the Future Trunks Saga going by feats.

Goku only managed to "win" the energy dispute because in addition to using all his power (until he broke his arms, something Vegeta had not yet done), he had his Kamehameha go through the attack of Ki by Merged Zamasu (surprising him and pushing the attack). It was not because Goku was stronger

EP 63 clearly demonstrated the power difference between Goku and Vegeta SSB.
Goku after that did not show anything that would make him equal to the prince of the Saiyans, it is not absurd to say that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB

Quite honestly, around here at least, I can't understand most complaints because, well, what exactly do people want/expect?

Do they want Vegeta to give up his driving motivation forever, his desire to surpass Goku, and forget about improving himself?

Do they want Vegeta to be some humbled shell that will always give up and never give it his best go anyways?

Do they want Vegeta to not want to pump himself up to take on powerful opponents as is befitting of a warrior race?

Do they want Vegeta to go against the core tenants of his character, to not be a jerk with a heart of gold who'll never directly help others but do so in his own way?

What do you people want, exactly? Because all I've been seeing around here in this thread are complaints centered around the above, for the most part. It just doesn't make sense, to me. Vegeta hasn't violated any character traits or development. He's still VERY MUCH in character, just more in fighting mode than compassionate mode. And guess what? He's STILL shown his compassionate side, albeit in non-overt ways.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think you're going too far to the extreme. For the most part, it seems the general idea, which I agree with, is that Vegeta having a rivalry and wanting to be #1 isn't bad in of itself. The problem is that it kind of defines his character and keeps him from developing further. Like how would Vegeta' evolved if he had his own rival instead of always chasing Goku. Vegeta being the 'eternal rival' at this point feels more like a crutched that the story writers won't let go of.

Also, Vegeta calling himself 'the strongest Saiyan' after seeing UI Goku is, well, BS. He isn't and that is assuming if he did surpassed x20 Kaioken Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. It also comes off as shortsighted in a tournament where if you lose, your universe goes bye-bye. That is also the problem with Vegeta challenging Jiren. He should know he has no way to win, but he's willing to lower U7's chances of winning to fight someone he knows he couldn't beat. If he had taken his fight with Toppo more seriously and beat him, this would be a little more forgivable since he would have removed U11's #2 and reduced U11 to just two people.

The general problem overall is that Vegeta has more jerk than gold lately.

Blame the writers. It is they who are taking the brain of Vegeta and making him face Jiren, even knowing the power of the U11 warrior. This is a totally illogical attitude, totally contrary to his personality.

Although in general his personality is horrible in this arc

Vegeta never bought a fight with someone so much more powerful than him. It is no wonder that even with the Blue he still knelt for Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's 'bad' because it comes off as a regression from where he was in the Future Trunks Saga or even the Champa Saga.

Vegeta can be cocky and sure of his abilities, without being arrogant. Like Goku can be a cocky SOB, but he rarely veers into arrogance. He was a good mixed of this in most of Super, but for some reason his ego went up in this arc. This is despite seeing people like Jiren bodied Goku and stalemate when Goku got a higher form. There is nothing noble about poking the bear for no reason. Jiren is not attack them and he could have waited to thin down the other universes and even take out the #2 of U11 instead of going, 'I'm the stronger!'.

Vegeta has shown in Super that he knows when he's outmatched as seen with Beerus, who he still humbles himself before, yet he's gun-ho about fighting someone possible stronger than Beerus. Keep in mind, Vegeta nearly wet himself when Beerus threatened him in 72. So the whole "Vegeta is the prince of all Saiyans, a proud warrior that never backs down from a challenge! Saiyans fight the strongest around, that's the defining trait of their people as a whole. To not want to fight someone strong is to basically go against Saiyan biology and culture, something which Vegeta does. NOT. DO." is to be frank, BS since Vegeta backed down in Battle of Gods and only felt compelled to fight Beerus after he slapped his wife. He also wanted nothing do with Beerus in 42 and kept telling Bulma to stop mocking Beerus.

He is kidding himself since we know he doesn't have UI, which is the only thing we have seen that did anything to Jiren. For comparison, it's like Goku going form Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and fighting Black and getting bodied, and Vegeta with just Super Saiyan 2 going, I can handle that.

To say, "A strong Saiyan likes the challenge. A strong Saiyan WANTS to fight the strongest around. It'd be OOC for Vegeta to NOT want to fight someone so strong, especially now" is ignoring a lot of stuff within Super.

Beerus is actually the exception in this regard. You've forgotten to mention that Vegeta had a deep-seated fear of Beerus that was laid out during his childhood, which carried into adulthood when he encountered the Hakaishin years later. Jiren doesn't have that history with Vegeta.

This also doesn't factor in additional context. In previous situations, this was life and death and/or casual living, not a tournament where you MUST fight. Beerus can very easily flip-flop between destroying the Earth or not, something Vegeta is keen on, because Beerus threatens his very livelihood simply by existing. Jiren doesn't have that with Vegeta.

With Jiren, he doesn't have to worry about any of the above, especially in a tournament. As well, he wants to prove himself as the one who fought the best in order to win the Super Dragon Balls, which means fighting with Jiren would be included.

The Universes are at stake, but they're predicated on an environment that promotes Vegeta's cockiness and willingness to fight.

[The gr]

Vegeta is insane if he thinks he is gonna take Jiren with plain old SSB,that guy need a new toy to make his match with Jiren worthwhile.

[HeroR]

I can understand Vegeta not wanting to give his energy to help Goku(he doesn't like Goku enough to give him energy, besides, he still helped out), what I don't understand is Vegeta saying he stands at the top of all Saiyans, when he admitted thats a title that goes to Goku, whom he is still trying to surpass. For me, nothing stuck out more as a F$%@ you to the character development he recieved in the Buu arc, espicially since that is what his still striving for, he has no reason to say that.

Also it doesn't matter what some advertisment shows, what matters is what is shown and demonstrated in the actual series.

I don't particularly care for his ROF armour, I just think its better than wearing the same thing he wore over 100 episodes ago.

Freeza absolutely despises Goku to the point that he visually one-thousand and more was to kill him, yet even he gave energy and this was before he decided to manipulate Goku for his cause. So Vegeta being a stingy bastard stands out. It isn't like he couldn't protect Goku and give energy at the time.

Vegeta said that Goku was number one, in the Buu Saga. Vegeta since then have said that Goku maybe number for now, but he will surpass him and the gods. He even claimed in the Future Trunks Saga after training that he was superior to Goku. So I'm not sure why Vegeta basically repeating what he said in 63 stands out.

And Vegeta hasn't shown anything that put him above Goku in this entire arc. All you have is 'Vegeta beat up Black', when Goku in the same arc took on Merged Zamasu by himself and melted his face when Vegeta and Trunks couldn't together. So going by just the show, Goku was above Vegeta even in the Future Trunks Saga going by feats.

Goku only managed to "win" the energy dispute because in addition to using all his power (until he broke his arms, something Vegeta had not yet done), he had his Kamehameha go through the attack of Ki by Merged Zamasu (surprising him and pushing the attack). It was not because Goku was stronger

EP 63 clearly demonstrated the power difference between Goku and Vegeta SSB.
Goku after that did not show anything that would make him equal to the prince of the Saiyans, it is not absurd to say that Vegeta SSB> Goku SSB

Quite honestly, around here at least, I can't understand most complaints because, well, what exactly do people want/expect?

Do they want Vegeta to give up his driving motivation forever, his desire to surpass Goku, and forget about improving himself?

Do they want Vegeta to be some humbled shell that will always give up and never give it his best go anyways?

Do they want Vegeta to not want to pump himself up to take on powerful opponents as is befitting of a warrior race?

Do they want Vegeta to go against the core tenants of his character, to not be a jerk with a heart of gold who'll never directly help others but do so in his own way?

What do you people want, exactly? Because all I've been seeing around here in this thread are complaints centered around the above, for the most part. It just doesn't make sense, to me. Vegeta hasn't violated any character traits or development. He's still VERY MUCH in character, just more in fighting mode than compassionate mode. And guess what? He's STILL shown his compassionate side, albeit in non-overt ways.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think you're going too far to the extreme. For the most part, it seems the general idea, which I agree with, is that Vegeta having a rivalry and wanting to be #1 isn't bad in of itself. The problem is that it kind of defines his character and keeps him from developing further. Like how would Vegeta' evolved if he had his own rival instead of always chasing Goku. Vegeta being the 'eternal rival' at this point feels more like a crutched that the story writers won't let go of.

Also, Vegeta calling himself 'the strongest Saiyan' after seeing UI Goku is, well, BS. He isn't and that is assuming if he did surpassed x20 Kaioken Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. It also comes off as shortsighted in a tournament where if you lose, your universe goes bye-bye. That is also the problem with Vegeta challenging Jiren. He should know he has no way to win, but he's willing to lower U7's chances of winning to fight someone he knows he couldn't beat. If he had taken his fight with Toppo more seriously and beat him, this would be a little more forgivable since he would have removed U11's #2 and reduced U11 to just two people.

The general problem overall is that Vegeta has more jerk than gold lately.

Blame the writers. It is they who are taking the brain of Vegeta and making him face Jiren, even knowing the power of the U11 warrior. This is a totally illogical attitude, totally contrary to his personality.

Although in general his personality is horrible in this arc

Vegeta never bought a fight with someone so much more powerful than him. It is no wonder that even with the Blue he still knelt for Beerus.

And Vegeta couldn't do the same with Trunks' help because....? And if Vegeta was massively stronger, he wouldn't have to break his arms to do the same thing. And why couldn't Vegeta and Trunks' attack pierce through Merged Zamasu's attack?

Again, Goku beating Merged Zamasu in a beam struggle surpasses anything Vegeta did against Black. So by feats, there is nothing that puts Vegeta above Goku.

Beerus is actually the exception in this regard. You've forgotten to mention that Vegeta had a deep-seated fear of Beerus that was laid out during his childhood, which carried into adulthood when he encountered the Hakaishin years later. Jiren doesn't have that history with Vegeta.

This also doesn't factor in additional context. In previous situations, this was life and death and/or casual living, not a tournament where you MUST fight. Beerus can very easily flip-flop between destroying the Earth or not, something Vegeta is keen on, because Beerus threatens his very livelihood simply by existing. Jiren doesn't have that with Vegeta.

With Jiren, he doesn't have to worry about any of the above, especially in a tournament. As well, he wants to prove himself as the one who fought the best in order to win the Super Dragon Balls, which means fighting with Jiren would be included.

The Universes are at stake, but they're predicated on an environment that promotes Vegeta's cockiness and willingness to fight.

Why is Beerus a special exception when Jiren has shown power that rivals if not surpasses Beerus? And deep seated fear didn't stop him from running his mouth on Freeza on Namek, who abused him for most of his life, so again, why is Beerus' special?

This tournament is more serious since if his universe loses, it isn't death that awaits him and his family. It's nonexistence. Jiren is threatening his very existence, even if it is indirect.

It really isn't. Vegeta is just being an idiot and you're trying to excuse his behavior when he was shown much wiser throughout Super.

[Lord Beerus]

The latest episode (Episode 122) handled Vegeta exceptionally well. He's know that he's arrogant, but from his perspective, that's precisely what the pride of a Saiyan is. And he's not going to throw away who he is. A prideful Saiyan. Even with all the development he's gone through, who he is at his core will never go away or change. Vegeta even remakes that he'll find his own of defeating Jiren and that he doesn't need Ultra Instinct to do it. Which just further highlights Vegeta's extremely dogged, brazen and resilient attitude. It's one of those character drive moments in self awareness that you don't much from characters in Dragon Ball, so it was nice to see it. It also served as good lampshade hanging for why Vegeta has been acting the way he has been in this arc.