Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, I'd agree the Cell saga is the only time the sci-fi elements take over.

The space and aliens setting in the Freeza saga is pretty much window dressing. The heroes fight an evil warlord and his martial arts clan, who are slaughtering innocent villagers for their mystical wish dragon summoning orbs and in the climax the main hero reaches a sense of enlightenment, only instead of becoming Buddha he glows yellow and kicks more ass. Put that all on earth and you change nothing but the supposed sci fi settings.

The Cell saga which involves time travel, kung fu robots, and an artificial lifeform made from cells of multiple warriors is where we lean hard into the science fiction genre

[Majin Buu]

Maybe the Cell arc because that's when we are introduced to concepts I more traditionally associate with sci-fi, which is speculative science since it deals with time travel and asks what could happen if you mess with different timelines.

The Freeza arc, I'd argue is more space opera, which contains sci-fi elements but puts a greater focus on the fantasy, psychological and political elements of any given story within a space setting than the technological. Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy or the Honor Harrington series are space opera and not sci-fi for example and everything on Namek is more in line with that.

I'm using "sci-fi" as a broad umbrella term. Yeah, when you get into the weeds they're not the same type of "sci-fi" (science fiction vs. science fantasy and whatnot), but I've never bothered to differentiate between the two when it comes to Dragon Ball because of its simplistic storytelling.

That being said, the Cell arc does get into the more out-there kinds of sci-fi though, making it feel closer to the kind of crazy stuff we saw in Pre-Z Dragon Ball, so I do agree that's it's doing something different under that umbrella term than the Freeza arc.

The space and aliens setting in the Freeza saga is pretty much window dressing. The heroes fight an evil warlord and his martial arts clan, who are slaughtering innocent villagers for their mystical wish dragon summoning orbs and in the climax the main hero reaches a sense of enlightenment, only instead of becoming Buddha he glows yellow and kicks more ass. Put that all on earth and you change nothing but the supposed sci fi settings.

I can agree with the space stuff being window dressing there. The Freeza arc does kinda feel like the Red Ribbon arc but in space instead of Earth.

[JulieYBM]

I don't understand how people hate Super Recolours but then praise SS4. It's literally the corniest and edgiest thing ever. It doesn't match Dragon Ball's tone

Dragon Ball's original tone died during King Piccolo saga

Edgy is not a bad word, maybe for you 12 year old of the Z generation. We adults call it "cool". SS4 is not the Mona Lisa, but it looks much better than a stupid pink recolor

Hey now, Super Saiyan Rosė is fucking awesome and gay, there's no need to out it down to lift up Super Saiyan 4.

[tonysoprano300]

Even in the Super anime, Trunks weeps when he enters the Time Machine for the last time and laments to the memory of his master Gohan that he couldn’t protect the world.

Toei's penchant for the melodrama and nothing more. This never happens in the manga.

If you hadn't noticed already, Toei has a penchant for making everything more melodramatic and sappy than it actually is.

- Flashback to Black killing the family;

- Infinite Zamasu killing everyone;

- Future Trunks crying when he sees Gohan;

- Goku talking about fRiEnDsHiP to Jiren;

- The Tournament of Power being a test to see how "noble" mortals are.

None of this nonsense happens in the manga. I enjoy the DBS Anime, but it is clear that Toei unfortunately took a few notes from GT when making it.

Toriyama was not "in charge of the writing", he gave TOEI and Toyotaro some rough ideas for where to take the story, hence the anime and manga taking different directions. I don't think Toriyama realized how much he was pedestalized, he wrote a memo for Resurrection F that he didn't know would be used as a full blown screenplay. Apparently Daima was the project he was most deeply involved with, although again, from what he's said it sounds like he gave pointers and ended up steering the whole ship, though I wouldn't be surprised if that's because there was a lot of yes men he was answering to.

He didn't give "some rough ideas" for where to take the story, he gave them clear plot points, which are shared across both mediums. You don't see the Tournament of Power being won by two different characters. You don't see Goku achieving a form different from Ultra Instinct.

There is no evidence that Daima had more Toriyama involvement than the movies.

I mean to be fair, in the context of Super they were given bullet points just like the Toyataru was. Not like the old days where the anime was a straight adaptation of the manga and they would make changes where they see fit.

Ill also give a hot take and say that historically there was some excellent filler in the DB anime that added way more to the story than the source material ever did. Which I feel like is a sentiment that people don’t see as much due to the obsession with Canon

[JulieYBM]

The major issue is not deviating from or building off of those bullet points. I understand that there might be fears of upsetting Toriyama, but that's why you go to the guy and explain why your ideas are good. I really wish the staff at Toei Animation had been able to do that, because firmly committing to a decision works so much better than just kind of beating around the bush.

[tonysoprano300]

The major issue is not deviating from or building off of those bullet points. I understand that there might be fears of upsetting Toriyama, but that's why you go to the guy and explain why your ideas are good. I really wish the staff at Toei Animation had been able to do that, because firmly committing to a decision works so much better than just kind of beating around the bush.

From what I understand, Toriyama seemed like a pretty chill dude who was open to different ideas/interpretations. In the context of the Future Trunks arc, you can have a DB story that deals with failure and pushing forward in spite of it. Its hard to picture what that would look like though

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think what really happened is that Toei Animation became really unwilling to do anything if not baby'd by Toriyama, sure they do have some original deviations from what he wanted but most of their time they are afraid to come up with their own stuff.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think what really happened is that Toei Animation became really unwilling to do anything if not baby'd by Toriyama, sure they do have some original deviations from what he wanted but most of their time they are afraid to come up with their own stuff.

Hard to come up with anything when everybody is yelling at you all the time that your thing sucks for daring to exist and that you're ruining "The Toriyama Charm"

[MasenkoHA]

I think what really happened is that Toei Animation became really unwilling to do anything if not baby'd by Toriyama, sure they do have some original deviations from what he wanted but most of their time they are afraid to come up with their own stuff.

Hard to come up with anything when everybody is yelling at you all the time that your thing sucks for daring to exist and that you're ruining "The Toriyama Charm"

Do they though?

Fans seem to generally like the Bardock and Trunks tv specials. More so than Toriyama's manga equivalents.

For all the talk about GT being some kind of failure in Japan the actual ratings and the fact that preorders for the GT Dragon Box was higher than Toei anticipated tells a different story.

I dunno "only Toriyama-sama does it right" seems to be mostly a vocal online minority thing.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think people are more forgiving of the TV specials for a few reasons:

• Toriyama loved the Bardock special so much he decided to include him in the manga. As such it's probably "canon" enough for the GT hate brigade
• History of Trunks I'd guess people just see it as an extension of the Android/Cell arc

I agree though that the "GT sucks because its not canon is a loud Internet minority and it was never hated as much as these people would have you believe.

Ratings in Japan were pretty much on par with the Boo arc in Z, people had already dropped out because the show had been on the air for so long.

Most international territories are similar in that they are more indifferent about GT. Latin America were pretty much "yay more Dragon Ball". People I talked to who watched it on CNX and Toonami UK were also generally of the mindset it wasn't as great as Z but it was fine and watchable.

[tonysoprano300]

I think what really happened is that Toei Animation became really unwilling to do anything if not baby'd by Toriyama, sure they do have some original deviations from what he wanted but most of their time they are afraid to come up with their own stuff.

Not sure what exactly went on behind the scenes, I would guess they were just really grateful to have Toriyama on board with new DB content by this point. Probably a different dynamic from the days where he had editors scrutinizing everything he did.

[ABED]

I am loving the discussion fostered by this thread and I know my legendary shitty wording skills ruined any chance of anyone getting it, but the point here wasnt really the quality but rather that Toriyama isnt writing from the context he did in the original run, and more like a third party, who indeed might as well be a fan, who read the original and had their take on the whole thing.

Or just a new showrunner. Different show runners on the same show are always going to have a different feel. See Community: The Gas Leak Year.

[AliTheZombie13]

I wasn't talking about GT or classic filler material.

There was an entire wave of videos, all of them extremely well received, with people claiming that they'll drop Dragon Ball or at least treat it like a lesser product because. "See? This is the difference between Toyotaro's original sketches, and Toriyama's. Toyotaro's are boring. Toriyama's are fun. There is a Toriyama Charm that no other product has ever managed to match and without it, Dragon Ball will never be the same."

Take arguments thrown around this own thread for example. "Dragon Ball shouldn't have done this, because it doesn't feel like Dragon Ball. Even though Toriyama wanted to do it!" And my response to that is... Okay... Does that make it bad, though? Just because Toriyama can't write romance or edgy stories, does that mean I have to appreciate these stories less when they do happen and when they're given the proper care? Like people said, classic Bardock is almost universally beloved while most seem to loathe the Toriyama Charm Bardock.

And like... That isn't false. The Toriyama Charm definitely exists, but there's a massive rejection to people not wanting anything that doesn't have it, as if other artists are not allowed to put their own spin on something. Lord knows Dragon Ball wouldn't even exist if Toriyama didn't put his own spin on Journey To The West. But the minute another artist puts their own spin on Dragon Ball, it becomes nigh-unwatchable according to many Dragon Ball YouTubers.

(PS: None of this is meant to excuse the abysmal corporate-led direction the series took recently)

[Grimlock]

Like people said, classic Bardock is almost universally beloved while most seem to loathe the Toriyama Charm Bardock.

More often than not I see people praising Toriyama/Toyotaro Bardock. Some heated discussion exploded last year (Youtubers and a few Facebook and Twitter pages) about how he is "more developed", a "more nuanced character" if compared to TV Special Bardock. At least half of them came with the "he is canonical, TV Special Bardock isn't" cringefest and moronic "argument" so I didn't pay much attention, but my point is that "modern Bardock" definitely has a large fanbase.

I maintain that a Metamoru fusion of those Bardocks would be the perfect scenario (as long as he keeps the bandanna, we'll be fine).