Almost the entirety of the new era of Dragon Ball is Fanfiction, but done by Toriyama

[Skar]

I always find this particular criticism to be lazy and arse-backwards. Fanfiction as a general category of literature has a poor reputation, but you always have to give credit for fan writers because they do it for the passion (or practice), not profit, if only because they physically can't solicit payments in most cases. The situation with Dragon Ball Super is almost the exact opposite. Look, I like Super just fine, but it's hard to argue it was made with the most "artistically pure" intentions. Yes, Toriyama has always been a commercial artist, so that's nothing new, but there is undeniably something a bit more... corporate about the Super era. Once we got to the Universe 6 arc, which is officially the point where Toriyama stopped providing screenplay material in favour of loose story beats for other artists to follow (with more effort put into gags than plot), it's fair to say his heart wasn't really in it as much as before.

I think the comparison to fanfiction comes from Kanzenshuu being a DB specific forum with a fanworks section going back several years. In most other places, it would be compared to modern day shonen since fanfiction is a more niche audience so the majority of casual fans wouldn't be reading them. When comparing to fanfiction, it does set the bar lower since the criteria is usually only "is this as good as what an amateur fan writer did with the same idea".

Comparing it to other professional shonen means it's going to be held to a higher standard. I don't think it's been in the same conversation as any modern anime adapting a top selling manga. I also don't think it's completely a "corporate" anime like the ones based on a video game or toy franchise. I've seen it most often compared to Boruto because the original author was still supervising but more of a committee fleshing out the story and different artist drawing the manga.

[tonysoprano300]

I don’t think there’s any possible way to spin a timeline getting deleted into a happy ending lol

Again, it's not "deleted", it's restored to an original point in time where everything turns out happily. It's a happy ending.

I would argue that the fact that nobody seems to give a fuck actually feels disturbing, almost makes the characters come across as a bit sociopathic

Good, that's Toriyama's Dragon team. They are not the Avengers.

The characters recognize this too when Zamasu sadistically reveals that he murdered Goku’s family. Goku was still angry about that even though he knew that it was an alternate timeline.

That is only in the Anime.

Toei has a penchant for the melodrama.

I don’t recall the humour in DB being so dark that the heroes would witness an entire universe’s deletion or the butchering of innocents without any hint of sadness, rage or horror. DB has never been that kind of series.

Again, Toei's penchant for the melodrama. In the manga, Zamasu and Black have already killed everyone save for one warehouse BEFORE Goku and Vegeta get to the future. Then they destroy the last survivors in that warehouse while they are back in the past. In the manga, which aligns closer to Toriymaa's vision of that arc in many ways, Goku and Vegeta never witness Zamasu massacre people.

Wait it must be deleted because Trunks went to live in an alternate timeline where a separate version of himself already exists. His specific timeline is gone.

The dragon team are not supposed to be unfeeling sociopaths either though and the entire objective Trunks had was to save his future. If he could just jump to another timeline I feel like he would have done that from the get go.

I'm a little confused on one point, Zamasu killed living being in Trunks time? Including Jiren, Hit, Toppo? Did he wipe out the afterlife too? If so How did he do that so quickly?

[SupremeKai25]

Wait it must be deleted because Trunks went to live in an alternate timeline where a separate version of himself already exists. His specific timeline is gone.

You're welcome to believe that, but it is simply not how the ending is framed. The ending is framed positively. That's the only fact that matters. You look at the ending, you see people smiling and having fun. It's meant to be a happy, if a little bittersweet, ending.

The dragon team are not supposed to be unfeeling sociopaths either though and the entire objective Trunks had was to save his future. If he could just jump to another timeline I feel like he would have done that from the get go.

And he saved his future. He warned Future Beerus of Zamasu's ambition, thus Black was erased while Zamasu was sealed by the Angels. Trunks succeeded in his goal of creating a peaceful Future for himself and his loved ones.

I'm a little confused on one point, Zamasu killed living being in Trunks time? Including Jiren, Hit, Toppo? Did he wipe out the afterlife too? If so How did he do that so quickly?

It's not confirmed that he killed everyone, but it is very likely. There is a 1-year gap between Black attacking the Earth and Trunks fleeing to the past, and an unspecified (but likely long) gap between Black going to that timeline and him attacking the Earth. We do know that Black already destroyed several mortal civilizations across the "Cosmos" before coming to the Earth. Nothing implies that it was "quick".

Either way, all those people including the afterlife were certainly erased when Zeno destroyed everything. (not just the Earth or U7, everything)

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't care how the ending is framed, a timeline got erased, souls were literally erased from existence, that's not a happy ending.

That's like saying, if they decided to wipe out the timeline where the show is set, "It's okay, because another similar enough timeline exists " that somehow negates how everyone in the main timeline is dead and wiped out from existence forever. The Bulma from Future Trunks' timeline isn't the same Bulma as the main timeline, for example, and now she's dead and erased because of Zamasu and Zen'O. The fact Present Bulma still exists doesn't negate that, or how Whis created a replacement Bulma for Trunks.

[JulieYBM]

I wish that the Future Trunks arc had committed to the bleakness of the ending. I think it's more satisfying for a mostly episodic arc, and also means a greater variety of different types of stories.

[tonysoprano300]

Wait it must be deleted because Trunks went to live in an alternate timeline where a separate version of himself already exists. His specific timeline is gone.

You're welcome to believe that, but it is simply not how the ending is framed. The ending is framed positively. That's the only fact that matters. You look at the ending, you see people smiling and having fun. It's meant to be a happy, if a little bittersweet, ending.

The dragon team are not supposed to be unfeeling sociopaths either though and the entire objective Trunks had was to save his future. If he could just jump to another timeline I feel like he would have done that from the get go.

And he saved his future. He warned Future Beerus of Zamasu's ambition, thus Black was erased while Zamasu was sealed by the Angels. Trunks succeeded in his goal of creating a peaceful Future for himself and his loved ones.

I'm a little confused on one point, Zamasu killed living being in Trunks time? Including Jiren, Hit, Toppo? Did he wipe out the afterlife too? If so How did he do that so quickly?

It's not confirmed that he killed everyone, but it is very likely. There is a 1-year gap between Black attacking the Earth and Trunks fleeing to the past, and an unspecified (but likely long) gap between Black going to that timeline and him attacking the Earth. We do know that Black already destroyed several mortal civilizations across the "Cosmos" before coming to the Earth. Nothing implies that it was "quick".

Either way, all those people including the afterlife were certainly erased when Zeno destroyed everything. (not just the Earth or U7, everything)

Yea, i mean I'm not arguing that it wasnt framed positively. Writers can frame things however they please but it doesn’t really have anything to do with the fact of the matter. If I was watching a holocaust movie that ends with nazi’s laughing and smiling over dinner, it wouldn’t be a happy ending to me no matter how positively they tried to frame it. But then again thats me, I tend to look at the things that happened rather than how happy the characters are.

He saved another future, not his own. His objective was to save his own future. Unless you’re saying those two things are completely interchangeable?


I can’t imagine he killed all mortals because Toppo, Jiren, Hit, and the rest of the pride troopers would have eviscerated him.

[ABED]

It's not a happy ending, but Trunks goes back to something close enough. I get it logically that it's not HIS exact timeline, but we don't see it and DB isn't the type of series to dwell on that sort of thing. It's not a fault in the storytelling, it's just not that deep. I think back to the story from the making of Back to the Future and Crispin Glover pointed out that the ending is sad when you think about it. Marty's family in the new timeline would have very different experiences and memories which Marty would have no knowledge of. He'd be faking it for the rest or his life. Either the director or writer pointed out that he heard him but it's not that kind of movie. I think that also applies here.

I guess the new era kind of reads like fanfic in that it has all the characters we know and love but it doesn't have quite the same feel or voice. I would say the same about GT, but that's not enough for me to consider it on the level of fanfiction. It's more like a show with a new showrunner. Every writer has a different voice and no one is going to pull off Toriyama no matter how hard they try.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I am loving the discussion fostered by this thread and I know my legendary shitty wording skills ruined any chance of anyone getting it, but the point here wasnt really the quality but rather that Toriyama isnt writing from the context he did in the original run, and more like a third party, who indeed might as well be a fan, who read the original and had their take on the whole thing.

[Hellspawn28]

I think the similarities between Goku Black arc and DBAF Xicor saga are a little too similar to chalk up to coincidence. Especially when Toyataru himself wrote DBAF. I could definitely be wrong of course but its just really hard not to draw parallels.
[/quote]

It is a coincidence because Toyataro never created anything in his AF fan manga. He just took a bunch of fan fic ideas and fan rumors during the 2000s. I'm old enough to remember when AF was at its peak with DB fans in the early-mid 2000s. I first heard of Xicor sometime in 2004ish. The idea of Freeza having a Kaioshin mom and her being evil isn't new either as other fan fictions had that idea too.

[Saiya6Cit]

Oh my this was an unexpected post.

What is fanfiction hahaha loved the AF images kudos to whom posted it it was epic.

Vegeta ultra ego is clearly based on a fanart from 2021. I even posted a rant about it on my deviantart account back then and later it became canon. I have nothing against fan manga or fanfiction. I make fanart and AMVs, it would be hypocritical of me to do so. I have nothing against toyotaro or sueisha. My love for Dragon Ball goes beyond that. I don't mind if they capitalize on it either as long as they also keep an original version of the show the way we watched it as children available too. At least until a year when it is safe to say we have all died. Ok. That was a little grim.

Anyways starwars prepared me for the worse. I am glad people in this post has been comparing DB to MCU or superheroes. Disney prepared me for accepting the current starwars will never be as good and epic as episode IV to Episode III but it is the starwars this generation deserves. Well, sames goes for dragon ball. Let the people who were born after the internet was a comodity to believe with all their soul that DBS is better . Let them be. Support the franchise and be thankful kids are still playing kame hame ha and know who goku is.

Ah but you see, he was an insider in the Cell Saga, he was a tired, desperate mangaka trying to keep his manga going. Ok he wasnt but he was under a lot of stress and he needed to fill the pages, that much is true.

Exactly. Toriyama was trying to "borrow" ideas from american comicbooks and hollywood sci fi movies from the 80s. The android saga has its flaw but when it comes to.dragon ball I have learned I fell inlove with the characters rather than the plot.

Funfact : I met dragon ball in cell saga. Yeah no OGDB and no Freezer nothing. I started watching the day the androids arrive and they pierce yamcha's chest( in representation on how hurt his heart was because everybody found out that not only he broke up with Bulma but she also has a kid from another guy??...) and I was hooked.

[Kaboom]

Comparing modern Dragon Ball to fanfiction feels like a disservice to fanfiction. Any half-decent fanfic writer is at least usually capable of keeping track of basic things like the characters' ages, and probably wouldn't think it's somehow a good idea to bring back a fan-favorite like Future Trunks only to erase his entire timeline and depressingly negate everything he's ever fought for.

Heck, most of the plotlines and other "creative" elements of modern DB, especially Super, feel like they're straight-up lifted from fanfics to begin with...

• "New hyper-powerful gods who have never been seen before!"
• "Goku has a new transformation with <color> hair!"
• "Freeza's back with a new <color> transformation, and Goku and Vegeta have another new <color> transformation of their own to fight him!"
• "Nice Saiyans from an alternate universe who can go Super Saiyan really easily!"
• "A tournament between universes with high stakes!"
• "Future Trunks is back (with <color> hair)!"
• "Xicor is back Dark and EVIL Goku from an alternate timeline!"
• "Broli is back, but he's been Rule 63'd! "
• "Another tournament between universes with high stakes, which Goku (kinda) wins by getting another new transformation with <color> hair!"
• "Broli is back, again!"
• "An ancient wizard has fancy magic abilities that can't be overcome with raw power and— oops, wait, never mind, Goku's using his <color> transformation to overcome him with raw power and also Oob has hidden god-ki for some asinine reason."
• "A Tsufrian Cerealan survivor wants revenge on the last of the Saiyans (and let's fuck up Bardock while we're at it)!"
• "Cell is back, and he's <color> now, and Piccolo and Gohan get new <color> transformations to stop him!"

...Can you tell I've seen and myself made this comparison before? After a straight decade of this uninspired tripe, I can't say I have much hope for Daima.

[Gapudo]

Super is actually a genuine story that Toriyama wanted to tell

Toriyama wanted to tell or Toei wanted to sell?

Super Saiyan 2 is not a recolor, it's the same color with different hair style and more power. Super Saiyan 3 is the same color with longer hair, no eyebrows etc. Super Saiyan 4 looks the best of them all. Super's transormations are just recolors with the same hairstyle and they make zero sense because there isn't a single reason for Saiyans to have all the colors of the rainbow in their head. It's just a budget issue

[SupremeKai25]

Super is actually a genuine story that Toriyama wanted to tell

Toriyama wanted to tell or Toei wanted to sell?

Super Saiyan 2 is not a recolor, it's the same color with different hair style and more power. Super Saiyan 3 is the same color with longer hair, no eyebrows etc. Super Saiyan 4 looks the best of them all. Super's transormations are just recolors with the same hairstyle and they make zero sense because there isn't a single reason for Saiyans to have all the colors of the rainbow in their head. It's just a budget issue

I don't understand how people hate Super Recolours but then praise SS4. It's literally the corniest and edgiest thing ever. It doesn't match Dragon Ball's tone and style at all, it looks ugly, edgy, and out of place.

Both Super Recolours and SS4 look like they were ripped off from DeviantArt.

And people say "But SS4 is original because it ties into the Saiyan origins!" and I'm like: No, Super Saiyan 3 already did that in the Buu saga.

[Caulifor]

And people say "But SS4 is original because it ties into the Saiyan origins!" and I'm like: No, Super Saiyan 3 already did that in the Buu saga.

The only tie SS3 has to the Saiyan origins is this transformation animation, nothing about its design calls back to the Oozaru or the tail. What is great about SS4 is the fact that it actually looks like the ultimate transformation a Saiyan could achieve. I'd argue it should still be golden to tie it better to the other Super Saiyan forms, making it the "real" Super Saiyan while the others are revealed to have been accidental variations that happen when the Saiyan in question doesn't have a tail.

As for Super transformations - I actually love Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego, but Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé missed the mark for me. Not only are their designs kinda lame, they don't make much sense lore-wise to me. I'd much prefer a version of Super where Ultra Instinct/Ego are the so-called God forms, and through the entirety of the series we'd have Goku and Vegeta trying to master these new techniques/forms. Of course then the story would be completely different from the start, so whatever.

[SupremeKai25]

And people say "But SS4 is original because it ties into the Saiyan origins!" and I'm like: No, Super Saiyan 3 already did that in the Buu saga.

The only tie SS3 has to the Saiyan origins is this transformation animation, nothing about its design calls back to the Oozaru or the tail. What is great about SS4 is the fact that it actually looks like the ultimate transformation a Saiyan could achieve. I'd argue it should still be golden to tie it better to the other Super Saiyan forms, making it the "real" Super Saiyan while the others are revealed to have been accidental variations that happen when the Saiyan in question doesn't have a tail.

The absence of eyebrows and wild mane are meant to evoke the more "primal" and "bestial" aspect of the form, tying it with the Saiyan origins.

As for Super transformations - I actually love Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego, but Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé missed the mark for me. Not only are their designs kinda lame, they don't make much sense lore-wise to me. I'd much prefer a version of Super where Ultra Instinct/Ego are the so-called God forms, and through the entirety of the series we'd have Goku and Vegeta trying to master these new techniques/forms. Of course then the story would be completely different from the start, so whatever.

They make perfect sense lore-wise.

Super Saiyan God is the result of six pure-hearted saiyans fullfilling an ancient prophecy to infuse their power into one of them. Ancient prophecies are a thing in this setting and a recurring plot beat, see Super Saiyan 1 and Old Broly.

Also, people in this forum love Videl. I'm surprised no one's yet mentioned that Videl played a major role in the creation of Super Saiyan God, since she inherited Saiyan power from the fetus Pan and participated in the ritual. That scene alone gave Videl better and more valuable material to work with than the entirety of DB:GT.

Super Saiyan Blue is a Super Saiyan God who activates Super Saiyan form. Since SSG is technically Goku in his Base form, this is a natural evolution. Super Saiyan Rosé is Zamasu's own version of these God forms, as he is a Deity, not a mortal, so his Saiyan form matches this different origin.

From a lore perspective, each of them have better justifications and more fleshed-out lore than Super Saiyan 3.

[MasenkoHA]

Super Saiyan[God is the result of six pure-hearted saiyans fullfilling an ancient prophecy to infuse their power into one of them. Ancient prophecies are a thing in this setting and a recurring plot beat, see Super Saiyan 1 and Old Broly.

And then they promptly fucked that up by introducing the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God (lol wut?) which did not require a ritual because uh reasons.

Also, people in this forum love Videl. I'm surprised no one's yet mentioned that Videl played a major role in the creation of Super Saiyan God, since she inherited Saiyan power from the fetus Pan and participated in the ritual. That scene alone gave Videl better and more valuable material to work with than the entirety of DB:GT.

Yes she became useful for having a baby in her then spent the rest of the Super series being Gohan's Leave it to Beaver Housewife. A far cry from the spitfire she was introduced as.

Videl is the last character I would use as an example of Super doing something right

GT Videl is just the typical "once prominent Dragon Ball character is now minor character" that hits all non-Goku and Vegeta characters in Dragon Ball, regardless of gender. Super Videl is a microcosm of all Toriyama's worst tendencies when writing female characters

Super Saiyan Blue is a Super Saiyan God who activates Super Saiyan form. Since SSG is technically Goku in his Base form, this is a natural evolution. Super Saiyan Rosé is Zamasu's own version of these God forms, as he is a Deity, not a mortal, so his Saiyan form matches this different origin.

From a lore perspective, each of them have better justifications and more fleshed-out lore than Super Saiyan 3.

You can try as hard as you want its the Super Saiyan of a Super Saiyan God! is never not going to sound like a 6 year old playing Dragon Ball Z on the playground came up with on the spot.

And what does Zamasu (who isn't a Saiyan) have to do with getting a brand new Saiyan form? Other than to sell toys? He's only able to acquire Saiyan power because he's possessing Goku's body

[Caulifor]

The absence of eyebrows and wild mane are meant to evoke the more "primal" and "bestial" aspect of the form, tying it with the Saiyan origins.

Still doesn't have any connection to the tail and the Oozaru form, both aspects that should define the race and were completely dropped after the Saiyan arc. Super Saiyan 4 fixes that somewhat. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it does tie into those things in a much more involved way than SS3 or anything in Super ever did. Don't know what to tell ya, it just scratches my itch for consistency, something these other forms don't do.

They make perfect sense lore-wise.

You don't have to explain the transformations to me, I know their explanations. I just think they're either an ass-pull or they just don't hit the mark. Seriously, the six pure-hearted Saiyans thing have absolutely nothing to do with the Saiyan culture, their biology, nothing - it comes out of the blue because they needed an explanation for the new form that would be introduced in the film... but the explanation is horrible and doesn't fit the universe at all.

Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé do make sense considering Super Saiyan God, but since I think SSG itself is a terrible addition, I put them in the same basket.

I'm not trying to make a point that GT is better than Super or anything. I've seen you around, I know you're the guy who defends Super every chance you get, so let me say I don't like GT and I enjoy a lot of what Super has to offer. I think most of its ideas and concepts are pretty neat and the execution is certainly better than GT. But to me, the idea and design of SS4 is leagues above SSG and SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

Ignoring the fact that Dragon Ball Super is largely influenced by Toriyama, the idea that it feels like “fanfiction” hits closer to home than some might want to admit. Many plot elements seem lifted straight from fanfiction (flashy transformations with little to no build-up and generic distinctions; alternative Saiyans, Freeza 2.0, Piccolo 2.0, Trunks 2.0, Evil Goku, Broly 2.0, etc.).

But don’t get me wrong, I like some of the ideas! Hyper-powerful gods, Super Saiyan God, Hit’s time-based techniques, Zamasu’s crafted plan (not his personality), Ultra Instinct (the technique brings something unique to the table), Moro’s magic-based techniques, Granolah’s sniper skills, and to some extent, Freeza and 17 working together with Goku and company. However, these elements, while initially exciting, sometimes lack the depth and originality that made the original series special.

Considering Toriyama has admitted to rereading his own work to get back into the mindset of his characters, this shows a dedication to, at least, keeping the series consistent and true to its roots. Ultimately, though, the project failed to properly convey that vision in my opinion, due to lack of long-term planning, rushed production, and other reasons already mentioned before.

One of the most problematic aspects for me is Goku’s characterization. The Goku we see in Super differs from the heroic "Toei Goku" many of us grew up with, which is fine, but not necessarily in a good way. Super presents extremely stoic and goofy versions of Goku that simply never existed before, when it could have come to resemble more his character from the original manga. It's also hard to ignore some of the more questionable decisions, like bringing back Future Trunks only to erase his timeline, undermining everything he fought for. And the transformations, while they add visual flair, often seem repetitive—basically new color variations rather than fundamentally new concepts. This approach can feel lazy and uninspired.

Overall, in my perspective, Dragon Ball Super feels like a mixed bag. It brings fresh ideas and exciting moments but often falls back on fanfiction-like tropes and inconsistent storytelling, rehashing old ideas and pandering to nostalgia. While it’s still Dragon Ball and retains some of its charm, it doesn't always capture the magic of the original series.

[AliTheZombie13]

Also, people in this forum love Videl. I'm surprised no one's yet mentioned that Videl played a major role in the creation of Super Saiyan God, since she inherited Saiyan power from the fetus Pan and participated in the ritual. That scene alone gave Videl better and more valuable material to work with than the entirety of DB:GT.

Ah yes, Videl in GT was completely worthless. She just:
1) Helped build the GT Spaceship and fueled Pan's insecurities, kickstarting the entire plot
2) Created genuine conflict by beating up her own daughter while possessed
3) Created genuine conflict (again) when Satan starts feeling terrible that he's lost everyone dear to him
4) Created genuine conflict (again again) when Baby starts targeting Goku's family members
5) Gave me that hilarious scene where she dresses like Saiyaman #2 and is ready to go fight Super 17

It's not much and I wish they did more with her, but...
In stark contrast: Videl in Super does NOTHING except stand there being a good wife and mother.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Wow I keep forgetting Videl became a science girl in GT. That's amazing.

BTW I love that moment where Videl didnt get angry at that pic, if only because usually in cliche liar revealed stories cheap forced drama would ensue and Videl not taking the bait was such a refreshing surprise. I know most Kanzenshuu users dont love rom coms or romance stories but I do a bit.