Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[SupremeKai25]

People here claim that entire sections of the story are irrelevant way too casually.

Absolutely nothing about BoG was contradicted by the future stories. Not one thing.

BoG never presented Goku as being close to Beerus. The original BoG power-scale provided by Toriyama was never contradicted.

Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15

Goku is fodder to Beerus (can't beat a heavily-suppressed Beerus and is spared out of pity), Beerus is fodder to Whis (gets knocked out instantaneously), and the Saiyans are fodder to Whis (who toys and plays with an enraged mutant like Broly). That has never changed in Super.

Similarly, Frieza, Gohan, and Broly are established by Super as mutant freaks who can accomplish anything. That's the story, the Story justifies it. But make no mistake, they are all still fodder to the Gods.

And besides, Frieza needed 10 years to surpass UI Goku and UE Vegeta. I don't know why people keep acting like Frieza is on their level when he literally needs to cheat and train for 10 years. What do you think will happen if you give them 10 years of training in the ROSAT?

Not one thing from BoG is contradicted later. Super is the most well-planed Dragon Ball series.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku is fodder to Beerus (can't beat a heavily-suppressed Beerus and is spared out of pity), Beerus is fodder to Whis (gets knocked out instantaneously), and the Saiyans are fodder to Whis (who toys and plays with an enraged mutant like Broly). That has never changed in Super.

This. People will think you meant that SSJG is still over half of Beerus’ power, but the general idea is that Whis 1 taps Beerus who 1 taps Goku.

Not one thing from BoG is contradicted later. Super is the most well-planed Dragon Ball series.

I laughed at first, but this is actually true. Toriyama introduced concepts he knew he’d come back to later in Super.

[Koitsukai]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of god ki like it's some kind of win card.
Normal Ki in great amounts can stand up to god ki, Freeza, Hit, Jiren, Broly, they all have regular ki but in crazy amounts.
It's like currency, sure the US dollar is worth much more than a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY's peso, but 50 trillions 3rd WC pesos are the same as 10 million US dollars.

We didn't have people in Z with such large pockets, but we do now in DBS. Freeza was that rich, had that much potential to become extremely wealthy, Hit has means to make himself that wealthy, too. And Jiren and Broly are the 1%, Jiren is fucking Rothschild. Even if they don't have any dollars, they have a shitload of other type of currencies.
And all of them are justified, Freeza is a freak of nature that never ever trained, Hit is +1000 years old and manipulates time, Broly is a beast and Jiren is the perfect warrior. Moro eats money, Granola is a cheater like Piccolo in SH. Android 17 has crazy potential, too. Same goes for Gohan and Trunks.
Sure, people who take the anime way too seriously might think even Roshi is god level, but that is not the case nor Toriyama's intent.

[Shintoki]

People here claim that entire sections of the story are irrelevant way too casually.

Absolutely nothing about BoG was contradicted by the future stories. Not one thing.

BoG never presented Goku as being close to Beerus. The original BoG power-scale provided by Toriyama was never contradicted.

Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15

-snip-

Not one thing from BoG is contradicted later. Super is the most well-planed Dragon Ball series.

wot

[SupremeKai25]

People here claim that entire sections of the story are irrelevant way too casually.

Absolutely nothing about BoG was contradicted by the future stories. Not one thing.

BoG never presented Goku as being close to Beerus. The original BoG power-scale provided by Toriyama was never contradicted.

Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15

-snip-

Not one thing from BoG is contradicted later. Super is the most well-planed Dragon Ball series.

wot

What... what? I thought I was fairly clear in my arguments.

[Shintoki]

People here claim that entire sections of the story are irrelevant way too casually.

Absolutely nothing about BoG was contradicted by the future stories. Not one thing.

BoG never presented Goku as being close to Beerus. The original BoG power-scale provided by Toriyama was never contradicted.

Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15

-snip-

Not one thing from BoG is contradicted later. Super is the most well-planed Dragon Ball series.

wot

What... what? I thought I was fairly clear in my arguments.

If Goku is a 6 by just obtaining SSG, how is he not a 10 already after unlocking SSB, SSBKK20, UI omen, MUi/PUI, and even more in Toriyama's as-of-yet-unadapted manuscripts

The shockwaves never get mentioned again even tho all characters after BOG should be exponentially more powerful than BOG and shouldn't be aware of the shockwaves to negate it beforehand to equalize their output with that of their opponent

For damn sake, Goku literally pushed Beerus to 70% of his power—that was stated by Whis. And no, it doesn't even enjoy the same benefits as his DBS version, which is why it's startling to see u say it never been retconned when that same benchmarks by toriyama was made for the movie of which was 100% retconned...

[JulieYBM]

wot

What... what? I thought I was fairly clear in my arguments.

If Goku is a 6 by just obtaining SSG, how is he not a 10 already after unlocking SSB, SSBKK20, UI omen, MUi/PUI, and even more in Toriyama's as-of-yet-unadapted manuscripts

The shockwaves never get mentioned again even tho all characters after BOG should be exponentially more powerful than BOG and shouldn't be aware of the shockwaves to negate it beforehand to equalize their output with that of their opponent

For damn sake, Goku literally pushed Beerus to 70% of his power—that was stated by Whis. And no, it doesn't even enjoy the same benefits as his DBS version, which is why it's startling to see u say it never been retconned when that same benchmarks by toriyama was made for the movie of which was 100% retconned...

I'm not here to necessarily agree or disagree, but the idea of vague measurements really is just to be vague. Gokuu can improve, but until we see in the story that he's actually a threat to Beers, I really wouldn't try to apply to Gokuu the idea that his improvements are good enough to be a threat to Beers.

Gokuu will remain a six and Beers a ten until the series decides otherwise.

That all being said, I absolutely think it's time for a story where Beers says to himself, "Fuck, I wanna start training again!" and then does his thing.

I need an all-silver Beers that can use Ultra Instinct!

[SupremeKai25]

wot

What... what? I thought I was fairly clear in my arguments.

If Goku is a 6 by just obtaining SSG, how is he not a 10 already after unlocking SSB, SSBKK20, UI omen, MUi/PUI, and even more in Toriyama's as-of-yet-unadapted manuscripts

Because he isn't. Those forms are not powerful enough to close that gap.

It doesn't get any deeper than that.

You can dislike this story reason, but the story provides a reason, and there is a plan.

he shockwaves never get mentioned again even tho all characters after BOG should be exponentially more powerful than BOG and shouldn't be aware of the shockwaves to negate it beforehand to equalize their output with that of their opponent

Those shock-waves only happened because Goku was inexperienced with God power as he just unlocked it. A large part of Goku's training in Super is not about artificially increasing power level, but better controlling the Ki as to not blow up the universe by accident.

For damn sake, Goku literally pushed Beerus to 70% of his power—that was stated by Whis. And no, it doesn't even enjoy the same benefits as his DBS version, which is why it's startling to see u say it never been retconned when that same benchmarks by toriyama was made for the movie of which was 100% retconned...

NO it was literally never retconned. In all mediums, Beerus has ALWAYS been beyond Goku. There has never been any point anywhere in which the story presented Goku as a worthy rival of Beerus. That will happen only in the endgame of Super.

[Shintoki]

What... what? I thought I was fairly clear in my arguments.

If Goku is a 6 by just obtaining SSG, how is he not a 10 already after unlocking SSB, SSBKK20, UI omen, MUi/PUI, and even more in Toriyama's as-of-yet-unadapted manuscripts

Because he isn't. Those forms are not powerful enough to close that gap.

It doesn't get any deeper than that.

You can dislike this story reason, but the story provides a reason, and there is a plan.

he shockwaves never get mentioned again even tho all characters after BOG should be exponentially more powerful than BOG and shouldn't be aware of the shockwaves to negate it beforehand to equalize their output with that of their opponent

Those shock-waves only happened because Goku was inexperienced with God power as he just unlocked it. A large part of Goku's training in Super is not about artificially increasing power level, but better controlling the Ki as to not blow up the universe by accident.

For damn sake, Goku literally pushed Beerus to 70% of his power—that was stated by Whis. And no, it doesn't even enjoy the same benefits as his DBS version, which is why it's startling to see u say it never been retconned when that same benchmarks by toriyama was made for the movie of which was 100% retconned...

NO it was literally never retconned. In all mediums, Beerus has ALWAYS been beyond Goku. There has never been any point anywhere in which the story presented Goku as a worthy rival of Beerus. That will happen only in the endgame of Super.

NO it was literally never retconned. In all mediums, Beerus has ALWAYS been beyond Goku. There has never been any point anywhere in which the story presented Goku as a worthy rival of Beerus. That will happen only in the endgame of Super.

It was retconned because SSG Goku alone, using 80% of his power, pushed Beerus to about 70% of his power. How can you say with a straight face that it wasn't retconned? Then again, you do believe that the later forms "weren't powerful enough."

Those shock-waves only happened because Goku was inexperienced with God power as he just unlocked it. A large part of Goku's training in Super is not about artificially increasing power level, but better controlling the Ki as to not blow up the universe by accident.

I wasn't speaking about just goku in my statement, even a battle genius like him had to do it more than once to figure it just right and he was late by the time he did. that notion is extremely absurd, as it presumes anyone that comes into the story later on knows how to do it beforehand. Even Broly, as a character, has to match the energy output of his opponent to equalize it, and Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Broly's level.

Because he isn't. Those forms are not powerful enough to close that gap. It doesn't get any deeper than that. You can dislike this story reason, but the story provides a reason, and there is a plan.

''aren't powerful enough to close the gap''

Preposterous. Goku alone demonstrating for us the power gap between SSG and SSBKK20 in the Tournament of Power, moreso when UI entered the picture, would be adequate enough for us to know that SSG is irrelevant for people like Jiren. Yet you want to claim they aren't powerful enough to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when SSG alone was enough to elevate Goku to 6? Bruh.Preposterous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SupremeKai25]

Preposterous. Goku alone demonstrating for us the power gap between SSG and SSBKK20 in the Tournament of Power, moreso when UI entered the picture, would be adequate enough for us to know that SSG is irrelevant for people like Jiren. Yet you want to claim they aren't powerful enough to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when SSG alone was enough to elevate Goku to 6? Bruh.Preposterous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, it's never even been implied that the later forms should have bridged the gap.

You're getting mad that the three Ts didn't confirm your made-up headcanon.

I wasn't speaking about just goku in my statement, even a battle genius like him had to do it more than once to figure it just right and he was late by the time he did. that notion is extremely absurd, as it presumes anyone that comes into the story later on knows how to do it beforehand. Even Broly, as a character, has to match the energy output of his opponent to equalize it, and Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Broly's level.

Everyone who comes in the story later on is an adept fighter who has good reasons not to blow up the Earth. In Broly's case, the Story explicitly points out that Broly subconsciously doesn't want to fight and destroy.

[Shintoki]

Preposterous. Goku alone demonstrating for us the power gap between SSG and SSBKK20 in the Tournament of Power, moreso when UI entered the picture, would be adequate enough for us to know that SSG is irrelevant for people like Jiren. Yet you want to claim they aren't powerful enough to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when SSG alone was enough to elevate Goku to 6? Bruh.Preposterous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, it's never even been implied that the later forms should have bridged the gap.

You're getting mad that the three Ts didn't confirm your made-up headcanon.

I wasn't speaking about just goku in my statement, even a battle genius like him had to do it more than once to figure it just right and he was late by the time he did. that notion is extremely absurd, as it presumes anyone that comes into the story later on knows how to do it beforehand. Even Broly, as a character, has to match the energy output of his opponent to equalize it, and Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Broly's level.

Everyone who comes in the story later on is an adept fighter who has good reasons not to blow up the Earth. In Broly's case, the Story explicitly points out that Broly subconsciously doesn't want to fight and destroy.

Right, because a form that pushed Beerus, aka a God of Destruction, to 70% of his power and then became irrelevant to later forms—forms which are magnitudes and leagues more powerful, such as SSB, Complete SSB/SSBKK/E, UI Omen, MUI, and TUI—is somehow a "made-up headcanon." Apparently, everyone after the Battle of Gods arc is a super-genius level fighter who figures out shockwaves before they even happen, "because reasons."

This is the most blatant glazing and shilling for Dragon Ball Super I’ve ever seen, but sure, I’m the "mad" one. Hahahaha.

The truth of the matter is that you threw basic logic, math, and rationality into the bin in favor of waiving off any contradiction or plot hole by filling it up with fan supposition on your part, and then calling anyone who points this out "making stuff up." LMAO.

anyone who knows how to calculate 2+2 knows that beeurs should have been surpassed a long time but keeps being retroactively buffed

[SupremeKai25]

Preposterous. Goku alone demonstrating for us the power gap between SSG and SSBKK20 in the Tournament of Power, moreso when UI entered the picture, would be adequate enough for us to know that SSG is irrelevant for people like Jiren. Yet you want to claim they aren't powerful enough to bridge the gap from 6 to 10 when SSG alone was enough to elevate Goku to 6? Bruh.Preposterous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, it's never even been implied that the later forms should have bridged the gap.

You're getting mad that the three Ts didn't confirm your made-up headcanon.

I wasn't speaking about just goku in my statement, even a battle genius like him had to do it more than once to figure it just right and he was late by the time he did. that notion is extremely absurd, as it presumes anyone that comes into the story later on knows how to do it beforehand. Even Broly, as a character, has to match the energy output of his opponent to equalize it, and Goku and Vegeta were nowhere near Broly's level.

Everyone who comes in the story later on is an adept fighter who has good reasons not to blow up the Earth. In Broly's case, the Story explicitly points out that Broly subconsciously doesn't want to fight and destroy.

Right, because a form that pushed Beerus, aka a God of Destruction, to 70% of his power and then became irrelevant to later forms—forms which are magnitudes and leagues more powerful, such as SSB, Complete SSB/SSBKK/E, UI Omen, MUI, and TUI—is somehow a "made-up headcanon." Apparently, everyone after the Battle of Gods arc is a super-genius level fighter who figures out shockwaves before they even happen, "because reasons."

This is the most blatant glazing and shilling for Dragon Ball Super I’ve ever seen, but sure, I’m the "mad" one. Hahahaha.

The truth of the matter is that you threw basic logic, math, and rationality into the bin in favor of waiving off any contradiction or plot hole by filling it up with fan supposition on your part, and then calling anyone who points this out "making stuff up." LMAO.

anyone who knows how to calculate 2+2 knows that beeurs should have been surpassed a long time but keeps being retroactively buffed

This is a story, not a math test.

The Story never stated that those forms bridged the gap between Goku and Beerus. So you're mad that the story didn't subscribe to your headcanon.

It's that simple.

Apparently, everyone after the Battle of Gods arc is a super-genius level fighter who figures out shockwaves before they even happen, "because reasons."

Let's see

- Freeza, prodigy who has been training non-stop for 4 months (as opposed to Goku in BoG who just got that power) and has been mostly restraining himself from destroying planets for his entire life.

- Hit, a 1,000 years old assassin.

- Zamasu, a Kai, so someone with centuries, potentially millennia of experience, who also doesn't want to destroy the planet because that's not his goal.

- Jiren, possibly the most disciplined fighter in the series, as mentioned in Super Hero.

- Broly, no experience but also no will to fight and destroy, as Goku noted at the very beginning of their fight.

- Moro, another millennia-old being who doesn't want to destroy planets because he needs their energies.

- Granolah, doesn't want to destroy his planet.

- The Heeters, don't want to destroy the planet because they exploit it.

Every main antagonist after BoG is either a millennia-old being, doesn't want to destroy the planet for various reasons, or both.

[super michael]

We don't know how much stronger SSB is to SSG, but we know how the Kaioken works. SSB Kaioken 20x should be stronger than Beerus, seeing that Goku in his SSG is as strong as 70% Beerus. The difference between SSG Goku and Beerus is only 30%, unless they retconned it.

SSB Kaioken 20x is 20x stronger than SSB.

They are the one that gave us the numbers and %, they are not headcannon.


In RoF Freeza says he predicts he would reach 1,300,000 power level, like if it is a big deal.
On Namek these were Freeza power level stated in the manga:

Freeza 1st form = 530,000 stated when he was with Nails.
Freeza 2nd form = over 1,000,000 stated when he finished his transformation.
Freeza 3rd form = N/A
Freeza final form = N/A
Freeza 100% final form = N/A

[Shintoki]

Again, it's never even been implied that the later forms should have bridged the gap.

You're getting mad that the three Ts didn't confirm your made-up headcanon.



Everyone who comes in the story later on is an adept fighter who has good reasons not to blow up the Earth. In Broly's case, the Story explicitly points out that Broly subconsciously doesn't want to fight and destroy.

Right, because a form that pushed Beerus, aka a God of Destruction, to 70% of his power and then became irrelevant to later forms—forms which are magnitudes and leagues more powerful, such as SSB, Complete SSB/SSBKK/E, UI Omen, MUI, and TUI—is somehow a "made-up headcanon." Apparently, everyone after the Battle of Gods arc is a super-genius level fighter who figures out shockwaves before they even happen, "because reasons."

This is the most blatant glazing and shilling for Dragon Ball Super I’ve ever seen, but sure, I’m the "mad" one. Hahahaha.

The truth of the matter is that you threw basic logic, math, and rationality into the bin in favor of waiving off any contradiction or plot hole by filling it up with fan supposition on your part, and then calling anyone who points this out "making stuff up." LMAO.

anyone who knows how to calculate 2+2 knows that beeurs should have been surpassed a long time but keeps being retroactively buffed

This is a story, not a math test.

The Story never stated that those forms bridged the gap between Goku and Beerus. So you're mad that the story didn't subscribe to your headcanon.

It's that simple.

Apparently, everyone after the Battle of Gods arc is a super-genius level fighter who figures out shockwaves before they even happen, "because reasons."

Let's see

- Freeza, prodigy who has been training non-stop for 4 months (as opposed to Goku in BoG who just got that power) and has been mostly restraining himself from destroying planets for his entire life.

- Hit, a 1,000 years old assassin.

- Zamasu, a Kai, so someone with centuries, potentially millennia of experience, who also doesn't want to destroy the planet because that's not his goal.

- Jiren, possibly the most disciplined fighter in the series, as mentioned in Super Hero.

- Broly, no experience but also no will to fight and destroy, as Goku noted at the very beginning of their fight.

- Moro, another millennia-old being who doesn't want to destroy planets because he needs their energies.

- Granolah, doesn't want to destroy his planet.

- The Heeters, don't want to destroy the planet because they exploit it.

Every main antagonist after BoG is either a millennia-old being, doesn't want to destroy the planet for various reasons, or both.

A narrative that incorporates numerical values does not automatically escape the need for logical coherence and rational consistency. If a character is initially stated to possess only X% of another character's power, and subsequently achieves a power level of XY through a form, weapon, or upgrade, yet later acquires multiple additional upgrades to the point that the initial enhancement becomes trivial—while still being confined to that same XY percentage—then regardless of attempts to justify this, it reflects poor writing. Writers who dismiss critiques by appealing to uncritical audiences or by accusing dissenting readers of "making assumptions," while gaslighting with claims such as "it wasn’t explicitly stated, so anything is permissible," ultimately undermine their credibility. Such an approach not only disrespects the intelligence of the audience but signals a fundamental failure in narrative craftsmanship.

The notion of a "prodigy" is equally flawed when misapplied or based on conjecture. In the case of Freeza, Toriyama's own statements attribute his extraordinary power to his mutant lineage, setting him apart from others of his race. The retcon that Freeza could achieve SSGSS-tier strength after mere months of training lacks narrative justification—had this potential existed originally, it would have logically manifested after his survival of Namek’s explosion.

Comparative arguments involving characters such as Hit or Moro fail to align with Freeza's case. Hit, as an ancient being from a parallel universe, operates under entirely distinct parameters. Moro, similarly, draws his strength from absorbing planetary energy and had the clear capacity to destroy the Saiyans outright by obliterating their planet but refrained due to plot constraints. These characters are not analogous to Freeza in terms of narrative progression or power development.

Regarding Zamasu, unless the reference is to Goku Black, he is a comparatively minor Kaioshin, especially when measured against Universe 7's standards. Invoking him or other characters like Jiren lacks relevance without a nuanced analysis of their narrative and power contexts.

Further examples, such as Gas, Granolah, and the events involving Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct forms of Goku and Vegeta, demonstrate similar plot inconsistencies. The absence of planetary destruction during their battles is clearly constrained by narrative necessities—namely, preserving the Saiyans’ survival. Additionally, other characters' inability to endure space environments further cements these decisions as plot-driven rather than logically consistent outcomes.

The examples cited in defense of these inconsistencies often amount to an incoherent amalgamation of disparate instances or characters, patched together in an attempt to substantiate an argument against legitimate critiques. However, these arguments collapse under scrutiny, resembling a fragile house of cards.

Ultimately, such defenses exemplify the very fan-speculation and rationalization that obscures the story’s flaws, rather than addressing them. Critiques rooted in genuine narrative analysis should not be dismissed but rather embraced as opportunities to strengthen storytelling integrity

or in case this was too long and complex for you to make out, then i'll reiterate it in a simpler manner for you to get

A story that provides numbers isn’t suddenly exempt from basic logic and rationality. If you tell me someone is only X% of another’s power, then becomes XY due to a form, weapon, or power upgrade, but later gains multiple weapons or transformations to the point where the initial power-up is completely eclipsed into irrelevance—yet somehow, they’re still within that same XY percentage—then no matter how much you try to excuse it, you’re a terrible writer. If you rely on fanboys who eat up anything without question, dismiss readers by accusing them of "just assuming stuff," and try to gaslight them by saying, "the story never stated it by word, therefore anything goes," all while insulting the readers' intelligence, then you’re not just terrible—you’re an outright writing imposter.

"Prodigy," lmao, what a load of headcanon. He was born a mutant, and that’s the reason he’s so strong compared to his race, according to Toriyama. Freeza being able to reach SSGSS level by training for just a couple of months is a terrible retcon. If he were originally capable of this, he would’ve done so after surviving the Namek explosion.

Hit is an ancient being from a parallel universe and is not comparable to Freeza's case at all. The same applies to Moro, who absorbs planetary energy and could have killed the Saiyans by simply blowing up the planet but didn’t—because plot. Zamasu is a fodder Kaioshin compared to the standards of Universe 7 Kaioshins (unless you meant Black), so I’m not sure why you brought him up, or Jiren, for that matter.

Gas, Granolah, Ultra Ego/Ultra Instinct Goku, and Vegeta did not destroy the planet because: A) it would mean the death of the Saiyans, and B) the same applies to the other characters if they can’t survive in space.

None of the examples you posted relate to your claim. All of them are just arbitrarily duct-taped instances or characters glued together to create the appearance of an argument against the shockwaves. However, this crumbles under scrutiny because it has no substance, like a house of cards. This is exactly what I meant earlier when I said your arguments are fan-supposition—attempts to fill in the holes, cracks, and gaps in the story while dismissing anyone who calls it out for what it is.

We don't know how much stronger SSB is to SSG, but we know how the Kaioken works. SSB Kaioken 20x should be stronger than Beerus, seeing that Goku in his SSG is as strong as 70% Beerus. The difference between SSG Goku and Beerus is only 30%, unless the retconned it.

SSB Kaioken 20x is 20x stronger than SSB.

They are the one that gave us the numbers and %, they are not headcannon.

exactly! yet they want us to eat up the notion that goku even with SSBKKx20, even with UI, even with MUI, even with TUI and all the god ki trainings throughout the arcs amounted to nothing and the increase in power less than anywhere near 30% of power over SSG, like wth kind of gaslighting is this, right? hhhhhhhhhhh

and the cherry at the top is us getting called as making things up by calling this out, like bruh

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not here to necessarily agree or disagree, but the idea of vague measurements really is just to be vague. Gokuu can improve, but until we see in the story that he's actually a threat to Beers, I really wouldn't try to apply to Gokuu the idea that his improvements are good enough to be a threat to Beers.

Gokuu will remain a six and Beers a ten until the series decides otherwise.

While I can see this may be the case for the manga, I don’t see how the original framework (6/10/15) provided by Toriyama in the movie hasn’t been superseded by later developments, as Goku’s power-ups are not static. Super embraces the theme of continual evolution, which inherently challenges the rigidity of BoG’s framework. Unless, this framework is more like a fluid one instead of a rigid.

Anyway, the Broly movie directly compares Broly’s strength to Beerus, with Goku remarking that Broly might be stronger. This undermines the idea that Beerus remains an untouchable figure. Such statements were not presented as hyperbolic hype but as a natural progression of the story.

And it took Freeza 10 years of training to reach “Black Freeza”, but more importantly the implication is: mortals can surpass gods with sufficient effort. Freeza effortlessly dispatching both UI Goku and UE Vegeta establishes that Beerus is no longer an unreachable peak. The notion that Freeza “cheats” by training ignores the core premise of Dragon Ball: training and discipline allow characters to break past perceived limits.

[SupremeKai25]

A narrative that incorporates numerical values

The narrative doesn't incorporate numerical values. Those numbers are taken from interviews, not the Story. Those interviews simply corroborate what the story showed.

We're thankfully not back to the ugly pOwEr LeVel days of the narrative.

it would have logically manifested during his survival of Namek’s explosion.

Why? He's not a Saiyan.

Comparative arguments involving characters such as Hit or Moro fail to align with Freeza's case. Hit, as an ancient being from a parallel universe, operates under entirely distinct parameters. Moro, similarly, draws his strength from absorbing planetary energy and had the clear capacity to destroy the Saiyans outright by obliterating their planet but refrained due to plot constraints. These characters are not analogous to Freeza in terms of narrative progression or power development.

I already explained why I brought up those characters and I feel like it's fairly simple to understand why I did.

You asked "why other characters don't make shock-waves?", I brought those people up because they're either very old so they presumably have a lot of experience with their powers (as opposed to Goku who just learned how to use it in BoG) and/or are restraining themselves because they need the planet for their plans or they simply don't want to destroy their surroundings.

"Prodigy," lmao, what a load of headcanon. He was born a mutant, and that’s the reason he’s so strong compared to his race, according to Toriyama.

Prodigy and Mutant are synonyms.

I'm not here to necessarily agree or disagree, but the idea of vague measurements really is just to be vague. Gokuu can improve, but until we see in the story that he's actually a threat to Beers, I really wouldn't try to apply to Gokuu the idea that his improvements are good enough to be a threat to Beers.

Gokuu will remain a six and Beers a ten until the series decides otherwise.

While I can see this may be the case for the manga, I don’t see how the original framework (6/10/15) provided by Toriyama in the movie hasn’t been superseded by later developments, as Goku’s power-ups are not static. Super embraces the theme of continual evolution, which inherently challenges the rigidity of BoG’s framework. Unless, this framework is more like a fluid one instead of a rigid.

Anyway, the Broly movie directly compares Broly’s strength to Beerus, with Goku remarking that Broly might be stronger. This undermines the idea that Beerus remains an untouchable figure. Such statements were not presented as hyperbolic hype but as a natural progression of the story.

And it took Freeza 10 years of training to reach “Black Freeza”, but more importantly the implication is: mortals can surpass gods with sufficient effort. Freeza effortlessly dispatching both UI Goku and UE Vegeta establishes that Beerus is no longer an unreachable peak. The notion that Freeza “cheats” by training ignores the core premise of Dragon Ball: training and discipline allow characters to break past perceived limits.

It's cheating because only one year went by from the Saiyans' perspective.
I thought this was fairly obvious.

And putting Broly above Beerus in 2024? Seriously? Goku doesn't know anything about Beerus' real power, why would anyone trust his comparison.

[Shintoki]

A narrative that incorporates numerical values

The narrative doesn't incorporate numerical values. Those numbers are taken from interviews, not the Story. Those interviews simply corroborate what the story showed.

We're thankfully not back to the ugly pOwEr LeVel days of the narrative.

it would have logically manifested after his survival of Namek’s explosion.

Why? He's not a Saiyan.

Comparative arguments involving characters such as Hit or Moro fail to align with Freeza's case. Hit, as an ancient being from a parallel universe, operates under entirely distinct parameters. Moro, similarly, draws his strength from absorbing planetary energy and had the clear capacity to destroy the Saiyans outright by obliterating their planet but refrained due to plot constraints. These characters are not analogous to Freeza in terms of narrative progression or power development.

I already explained why I brought up those characters and I feel like it's fairly simple to understand why I did.

You asked "why other characters don't make shock-waves?", I brought those people up because they're either very old so they presumably have a lot of experience with their powers (as opposed to Goku who just learned how to use it in BoG) and/or are restraining themselves because they need the planet for their plans or they simply don't want to destroy their surroundings.

"Prodigy," lmao, what a load of headcanon. He was born a mutant, and that’s the reason he’s so strong compared to his race, according to Toriyama.

Prodigy and Mutant are synonyms.
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The narrative doesn't incorporate numerical values. Those numbers are taken from interviews, not the Story. Those interviews simply corroborate what the story showed.

We're thankfully not back to the ugly pOwEr LeVel days of the narrative.

Even if you want to ignore Toriyama's benchmarks, there’s still the elephant in the room: Beerus being pushed to around 70% of his power.

I’ve never been one to prioritize power levels or the stakes of the story over its plot and narrative—if it’s intricately written. Nor am I going to start now. However, it’s a different ballpark when the reoccurring final boss is being spoken of as if his power level is the same throughout the series. that, I cannot stand by and shrug off like nothing

Why? He's not a Saiyan.

I meant "after" rather than "during" for that sentence, but the phone messed it up a bit. Still, you get the gist of it: if this were the case, then Frieza would have powered up beyond the android saga's saiyans imagination in just a month or less and we know that's not the case.

You could make excuses for it, but that would be, as I said before, fan supposition. The way the narrative in DBS cannot aligns 1:1 with DBZ is why it's retcons.

Prodigy and Mutant are synonyms.

in the case of Freeza, his skyscapering power jumps is due to his mutated and unbelievable power level which he had since ever without training.

so in a sum up, beerus was, in fact, retconned

[super michael]

If power level are so ugly, why even put power levels into RoF? That line of Freeza predicting to reach 1,300,000 will never make sense at all, since we know how strong Freeza used to be on Namek and he was over 1,000,000 in just his 2nd form.

Kaioken how it works was mentioned in the Saiyan/Namek Saga.
The gap between Beerus and SSG Goku was mentioned in BoG.

No interview or guidebook needed. No headcannon needed.

[Hugo Boss]

It's cheating because only one year went by from the Saiyans' perspective.
I thought this was fairly obvious.

And putting Broly above Beerus in 2024? Seriously? Goku doesn't know anything about Beerus' real power, why would anyone trust his comparison.

Unconventional training methods have always been a part of power progression in Dragon Ball. Goku and Vegeta have consistently used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to gain an edge, and Whis’ staff accelerates time for training. Freeza’s use of a similar method aligns with the series’ precedent, not as “cheating” (which is exactly what Zamasu does for example), but as resourcefulness. The series emphasizes extreme physical and mental effort over the time spent, and Freeza clearly put in the work to achieve his transformation.

Goku’s statement about Broly possibly surpassing Beerus may not be definitive, but the discomfort Beerus shows with Broly’s presence suggests that Broly is at least near his level. Even if Goku’s knowledge of Beerus’ full power is incomplete, the narrative framing on Broly consistently highlights his potential.

Moreover, Super has repeatedly leaned into the theme of mortals challenging gods through its several story arcs. Characters like Broly and Freeza embody this theme, challenging the once untouchable status of gods through their effort and growth. The series consistently emphasizes that with the right motivation and training, no power ceiling is insurmountable. Whether through resourcefulness or innate potential, mortals inching closer to (or even surpassing) godly thresholds is not just plausible but central to the story’s core message.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Something that just hit me: Super Vegetto and SSJ4 Goku being equals is utter nonsense.

Golden Oozaru is obviously 10x SSJ3. GO Goku was comparable to Baby, and GO Baby was comparable to SSJ4 Goku. Therefore, SSJ4 is about 100x SSJ3.

This also means Super Vegetto is 100x stronger than GT SSJ3 Goku. Base Vegetto is, at best, slightly stronger than Boohan.

Even if we pretend Goku compared Rildo to Mr Boo (why?) instead of Kid Boo or Boohan, GT SSJ3 Goku ends up comparable to SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan by this logic.

So yeah, SSJ4 Goku destroys Super Vegetto.