Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[SelfTrainedNamekian]

goku trained with uub nonstop for striaght 5 years. thats insane amount of training. that was on top all the training he did prior to that after the buu saga. so,even if we assume gt is not the same cannon with super i think goku and vegeta might be way stronger in gt then in super including their god forms. its just that they had way way more time to train. and no i dont really think goku can beat beerus if he take it seriously and fight with full power, even after the TOP and even after the manga events. i think if beerus wanted he would still wipe the floor with goku.

baby was only stronger then goku because it was vegeta's body + all the power he absorbed from the others, vegeta probably trained as much as goku. vegeta base and ssj forms probably are way stronger then super's god forms.

super 17 is a combination of a strong 17 who trained for 22 years (7 from cell to buu saga,10 from buu saga to end of Z, 5 from end of Z to gt) and a 17 who was made by myu and gero who was probably measured with lastet goku power level in mind so no wonder hes so strong.

syn shenron is strength is more of a "magical cause" because of the imporance and scale of the wish he was born from. so that make sense. kinda.

now, if we drop fusion into the mix, i think there is no doubt that ssj4 gogeta is FAR FAR stronger then either gogeta blue OR vegito blue. with all the god ki praise and everything. i still think long training is more effective then just having different kind of ki and a fusion between such strong ssj4's will wipe the floor with any super character, minus maybe the gods of destruction or angels

[theherodjl]

If you go by Super Dragonball Heroes, Xeno Goku & Vegeta are what happens when GT Goku & Vegeta become even stronger, but not counting their improved versions of SSJ4 that they only have access to when they absorb power, they were only about on par with their mainline counterparts from the Tournament of Power. So no, GT & Vegeta are not stronger than their Super counterparts.

[SupremeKai25]

No. Goku in the very first arc, in his first new form, was shaking the Universe itself with his movements and threatened to destroy it if he kept up the fighting.

Unmastered UI Goku from ep. 116 defeated Kefla who felt like she could destroy a whole universe in one blow.

Nothing I have seen in GT looks or sounds more impressive than this.

[super michael]

Here is what we know about both BoG and GT:

Base Goku before the ritual is weaker than Freeza
Base Goten and Base Trunks 1 shot Android 19 with their ki blast, who is stronger than Freeza.

SSJ1 Goku after the ritual is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta 2nd form is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta final form is stronger than his previous form.
Super Oozaru Bebi Vegeta is stronger than his previous form.

Oob fused with Boo is a rival to Bebi Vegeta final form, while in the Super 17 Saga, Goku managed to make his SSJ1 form stronger than Oob.


I would say GT Goku and GT Vegeta are stronger than BoG and RoF, however they are weaker than ToP Goku and Vegeta.
The only GT character stronger than DBS characters are Goten, Trunks and Pan at the moment.

[Yuji]

I've recently settled on Baby arc SS4 Goku = BoG SSG Goku

Considering GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times stronger than that, whilst Super characters get a few hundreds or thousands (even if you believe, as I do, the God base thing was retconned), then Super should comfortably surpass SS4 Gogeta by Jiren at least, if not Merged Zamasu already.

Here is what we know about both BoG and GT:

Base Goku before the ritual is weaker than Freeza
Base Goten and Base Trunks 1 shot Android 19 with their ki blast, who is stronger than Freeza.

SSJ1 Goku after the ritual is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta 2nd form is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta final form is stronger than his previous form.
Super Oozaru Bebi Vegeta is stronger than his previous form.

Oob fused with Boo is a rival to Bebi Vegeta final form, while in the Super 17 Saga, Goku managed to make his SSJ1 form stronger than Oob.


I would say GT Goku and GT Vegeta are stronger than BoG and RoF, however they are weaker than ToP Goku and Vegeta.
The only GT character stronger than DBS characters are Goten, Trunks and Pan at the moment.

Super Baby 2 is stronger than Boohan. Super Vegetto is comparable to SS4 Goku from the Baby arc.

[SupremeKai25]

I've recently settled on Baby arc SS4 Goku = BoG SSG Goku

Considering GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times stronger than that, whilst Super characters get a few hundreds or thousands (even if you believe, as I do, the God base thing was retconned), then Super should comfortably surpass SS4 Gogeta by Jiren at least, if not Merged Zamasu already.

I mean, Omega Shenron is basically just a slower and smaller-scale version of Infinite Zamasu. I look at Omega Shenron's ultimate technique, and I think to myself... "wait, isn't this what Infinite Zamasu did in a couple of seconds?"

I truly fail to see how GT characters are supposed to be impressive in terms of feats.

But I am sure that there is some weird omniversal feat hidden away in one of the episodes of the Black Star Dragonballs arc that few people know about (I wonder why, lol!)

[Yuji]

I've recently settled on Baby arc SS4 Goku = BoG SSG Goku

Considering GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times stronger than that, whilst Super characters get a few hundreds or thousands (even if you believe, as I do, the God base thing was retconned), then Super should comfortably surpass SS4 Gogeta by Jiren at least, if not Merged Zamasu already.

I mean, Omega Shenron is basically just a slower and smaller-scale version of Infinite Zamasu. I look at Omega Shenron's ultimate technique, and I think to myself... "wait, isn't this what Infinite Zamasu did in a couple of seconds?"

I truly fail to see how GT characters are supposed to be impressive in terms of feats.

But I am sure that there is some weird omniversal feat hidden away in one of the episodes of the Black Star Dragonballs arc that few people know about (I wonder why, lol!)

Yes, it's just natural power progression that if the scale of the series' world is bigger, then the characters will be stronger as well.

GT characters threaten the universe, Super characters threaten the multiverse (with infinite Zamasu crossing over to timelines as well), and Heroes characters threaten multiple timelines. It's no surprise that in one of the first Heroes chapters of the manga, SS4 Gogeta and Omega Shenlong are fodderized by a minor Heroes antagonist.

Even through basic dimensional scaling, GT should be lower than Super. But by in-universe scaling, we have databooks using Z Super Vegetto as a measuring stick well into the GT higher tiers.

[SupremeKai25]

GT characters threaten the universe

Omega Shenron, SSJ4 Gogeta by power-scaling, and maybe Goku because this show glazed and shilled for Goku non-stop. Those are the characters that threaten the universe.

In Super, in the very first arc we are told that SSG Goku and Beerus who was using a minimal amount of his power were threatening to destroy the universe with their fights.

Then in the FT arc we see Infinite Zamasu casually cover the entire Multiverse, which is all of the 12 Universes combined.

Then in the ToP arc we have Kefla who claims she could easily destroy the universe with one blow. Plenty of characters from this arc, later arcs, and also previous arcs (I will always believe that Fused Zamasu > Kefla) scale above Kefla.

[Koitsukai]

The GT base forms (well, just Goku's actually because the others stopped training as seriously or altogether) are stronger than in DBS, but the god forms have higher multipliers than SS4, so it kinda evens out, but there is more than just SSG and SSB in DBS. The enhancement provided by KK and SSBE already puts DBS above GT, not to mention the Ultra Forms.

[nickzambuto]

There are two ways to look at it.

The feats perspective, or the in-universe perspective.

Since this is a Dragon Ball board and not a versus battle board, we don’t need to be obsessed with feats. Look at it from the perspective of Dragon Ball itself and the way the story works, it only makes sense for GT to be stronger.

They are later in the timeline, and these characters only get stronger with time.

[Grimlock]

They are later in the timeline, and these characters only get stronger with time.

While it is great to see someone from within the Dragon Ball "fandom" using common sense, which is unfortunately rarely used, for this particular case things are not that simple.

The Dragon Ball GT characters don't have Dragon Ball Super in their past. Meaning that yes, while they train and get stronger, the increase in power is less due to the absence of the events of Dragon Ball Super. GT Goku didn't face Beerus, didn't face Golden Freeza, didn't train with Whis... The GT characters (well, namely Goku and Vegeta) got stronger using known and old methods for fifteen years but seemingly didn't face any major opponent from Majin Buu saga until the beginning of Dragon Ball GT.

You could compare them and say that GT Goku from the very beginning is stronger than Super Goku from the very beginning due to the time gap, but Dragon Ball Super characters catch up and surpass eventually.

Things change a little bit if we skip forward in time in Dragon Ball GT and bring up Xeno Goku and the others. In their first fight, Goku comes out as victorious against Xeno Goku. In their second fight, Xeno Goku catches up to Ultra Instinct -Sign- Goku level but is weaker once Goku goes Ultra Instinct. Since manga stuff isn't considered, Vegeta's strongest form is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution, so it's debatable whether he is stronger than Xeno Vegeta. I do believe Xeno Gohan is stronger than Gohan until the latter gets Beast, then it becomes debatable as well. Xeno Goten is stronger than Goten through and through.

[super michael]

I've recently settled on Baby arc SS4 Goku = BoG SSG Goku

Considering GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times stronger than that, whilst Super characters get a few hundreds or thousands (even if you believe, as I do, the God base thing was retconned), then Super should comfortably surpass SS4 Gogeta by Jiren at least, if not Merged Zamasu already.

Here is what we know about both BoG and GT:

Base Goku before the ritual is weaker than Freeza
Base Goten and Base Trunks 1 shot Android 19 with their ki blast, who is stronger than Freeza.

SSJ1 Goku after the ritual is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta 2nd form is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta final form is stronger than his previous form.
Super Oozaru Bebi Vegeta is stronger than his previous form.

Oob fused with Boo is a rival to Bebi Vegeta final form, while in the Super 17 Saga, Goku managed to make his SSJ1 form stronger than Oob.


I would say GT Goku and GT Vegeta are stronger than BoG and RoF, however they are weaker than ToP Goku and Vegeta.
The only GT character stronger than DBS characters are Goten, Trunks and Pan at the moment.

Super Baby 2 is stronger than Boohan. Super Vegetto is comparable to SS4 Goku from the Baby arc.

Rildo is stronger than Boo, in his base form and suppressed. Rildo has two forms, which are stronger than his base form.
How can Bebi Vegeta 2nd form only be stronger than Boohan?

Here is the quote that is mentioned in the episode:

Bebi Vegeta: Power! I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!
Goku: It's true! I've never felt a ki as awesome as this!

[Hellspawn28]

GT and Super are in their own continuity. So it's hard to compare the two seeing that neither of them directly follow each other.

[SupremeKai25]

There are two ways to look at it.

The feats perspective, or the in-universe perspective.

Since this is a Dragon Ball board and not a versus battle board, we don’t need to be obsessed with feats. Look at it from the perspective of Dragon Ball itself and the way the story works, it only makes sense for GT to be stronger.

They are later in the timeline, and these characters only get stronger with time.

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

[Yuji]

I've recently settled on Baby arc SS4 Goku = BoG SSG Goku

Considering GT characters get at most a couple of dozen times stronger than that, whilst Super characters get a few hundreds or thousands (even if you believe, as I do, the God base thing was retconned), then Super should comfortably surpass SS4 Gogeta by Jiren at least, if not Merged Zamasu already.

Here is what we know about both BoG and GT:

Base Goku before the ritual is weaker than Freeza
Base Goten and Base Trunks 1 shot Android 19 with their ki blast, who is stronger than Freeza.

SSJ1 Goku after the ritual is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta 2nd form is stronger than Vegito.
Bebi Vegeta final form is stronger than his previous form.
Super Oozaru Bebi Vegeta is stronger than his previous form.

Oob fused with Boo is a rival to Bebi Vegeta final form, while in the Super 17 Saga, Goku managed to make his SSJ1 form stronger than Oob.


I would say GT Goku and GT Vegeta are stronger than BoG and RoF, however they are weaker than ToP Goku and Vegeta.
The only GT character stronger than DBS characters are Goten, Trunks and Pan at the moment.

Super Baby 2 is stronger than Boohan. Super Vegetto is comparable to SS4 Goku from the Baby arc.

Rildo is stronger than Boo, in his base form and suppressed. Rildo has two forms, which are stronger than his base form.
How can Bebi Vegeta 2nd form only be stronger than Boohan?

Here is the quote that is mentioned in the episode:

Bebi Vegeta: Power! I have now obtained the greatest of Saiyan power!
Goku: It's true! I've never felt a ki as awesome as this!

Those kind of statements are always used in reference to an opponent they've faced, not themselves.

Goku was either referring to Mr. Boo or Kid Boo for Rildo, but there's several tiers of strength between those two and Boohan.

Moreover, there's this:

[Hellspawn28]

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

It's still strange that people still think GT and Super can exist in one timeline when that can't happen. There's too much contradictions between the two. For example:

Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, and Gohan never uses their new forms. Piccolo also gets knock out in one shot by Gohan under Baby's control which doesn't make sense
Shin and Kibito are still fused
Pilaf and his gang are old and still want to take over the world
Pilaf doesn't recognized Adult Goku despite seeing him in that one filler episode and in Super
Goku said that he hasn't seen Kibitoshin and Elder Kai since Buu was defeated when Goku saw them afterwards
In the Super 17 saga, Goku implies he hasn't fought Freeza since Namek which he has fought afterwards
Freeza is still alive
Freeza didn't use his other forms and he teams up with Cell, who is much weaker than him
#17 completely forgets that he has human emotions and acts like he hasn't seen #18 since Cell
Goku said that Super Yi Xing Long is the strongest person that he has meet despite Zeno existing
Vegeta said he doesn't want to have the Earth be destroyed twice despite it was already destoryed by Freeza in ROF

[SupremeKai25]

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

It's still strange that people still think GT and Super can exist in one timeline when that can't happen. There's too much contradictions between the two. For example:

Usually they claim that Super will end with a "mass memory reset" leading into GT.

Which is... okay... whatever... doesn't really mean anything since we don't know how Super will end, except that it will tie into the final tournament where Goku will leave with Uub.

I agree with everything you said, and I must thank you for making all those points. Super and GT are simply not in the same continuity.

[nickzambuto]

There are two ways to look at it.

The feats perspective, or the in-universe perspective.

Since this is a Dragon Ball board and not a versus battle board, we don’t need to be obsessed with feats. Look at it from the perspective of Dragon Ball itself and the way the story works, it only makes sense for GT to be stronger.

They are later in the timeline, and these characters only get stronger with time.

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

Because it is Goku. He'll get stronger no matter what.

[SupremeKai25]

There are two ways to look at it.

The feats perspective, or the in-universe perspective.

Since this is a Dragon Ball board and not a versus battle board, we don’t need to be obsessed with feats. Look at it from the perspective of Dragon Ball itself and the way the story works, it only makes sense for GT to be stronger.

They are later in the timeline, and these characters only get stronger with time.

They're obviously not in the same continuity. Why would you even use that argument?

Because it is Goku. He'll get stronger no matter what.

Sorry, I don't think your argument makes any sense at all tbh,

[Peach]

Yes. It seems like God, Blue, Blue Evolution are just forms slightly stronger than 3. I never got the impression that they were as strong as people hype them up to be.