Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[super michael]

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.

I like how GT and Daima Goku gained their SSJ4 transformation and I don't have any problem with magic being used. I just wanted to point out there was more than just GT Goku getting his tail pulled out.

[SupremeKai25]

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.

I like how GT and Daima Goku gained their SSJ4 transformation and I don't have any problem with magic being used. I just wanted to point out there was more than just GT Goku getting his tail pulled out.

Just like there's more to Daima SSJ4 that simply "getting a McGuffin from Neva". That's not the only thing that happened. He didn't just show up and get handed the form on a silver platter. He was given the form only after getting slaughtered by Gomah in his lower forms. Daima Goku still struggled to get his new form; it just wasn't a drawn-out snorefest like GT Goku. It wasn't interesting at all to have the "epic fight between Baby and Uub" constantly cut back to Goku getting his tail pulled out of his ass.

[angeldreamZ004]

Dragon Ball transformations on average aren't well-planned and are introduced suddenly. The forms with the most build-up and foreshadowing are probbly Ultra Instinct (foreshadowed since RoF, aka 3 arcs earlier) and the original SSJ1. "McGuffins" are ingrained in the Dragon Ball DNA and people should just embrace it. In a way, that's what makes Dragon Ball so charming. Things often happen randomly

I disagree with this, almost all of the transformations in the series do get a build up to them. What you said only applies to very specific forms or a few variations. But even the most underdeveloped forms have something leading up to them.

Oozaru - Goku being somehow stronger than everyone + having a monkey tail + Not looking at a full moon during the night.
SSJ - The Legend + Kuririn's death.
SSJ Variations - Training in the ROSAT to go beyond SSJ1
SSJ2 - Training in the ROSAT + Gohan being the savior + Everyone suffering at the Cell Games
Ultimate - Training with Kaioshin
SSJ4 (GT) - Goku's tail grows again + Golden Oozaru
SSJ4 (Daima) - Neva + Goku trying to go beyond SSJ3
God - Beerus’ Prophecy + Saiyajin Ritual / Yamoshi Legend
Blue - Goku's ability to use the God Ki without transforming into a SSJ + Training with Whis
UI - Contact with superior entities + Training with Angels
UE - Training with Whis + Training with Beerus + Vegeta's New Character Development
Broly's Ikari & SSJ1 - Broly's power increasing constantly + Losing control to his fury + Paragus’ Death
Orange Piccolo - Shenlong unlocking Piccolo's potential (he even has the deep dimples when he's looking at the mirror)
Beast - Piccolo telling that Gohan has to use his full power, that the Ultimate form is not his limit.

Some of the forms that do come out of nowhere are more of a anime only thing for example, such as Trunks SSJ rage in Super Anime, or Broly's LSSJ in DBS, but in the latter's case, we have to understand the production side of it, as it was Shintani's idea, Toriyama didn't have the LSSJ (or Full Power SSJ) in his mind when working in the movie, so the Golden Haired SSJ was meant to be the equivalent to LSSJ in his head, that's why the LSSJ comes out of nowhere in the movie. (Plus, in the flashbacks from the manga, Broly is seen as SSJ only, further exposing Toriyama's idea that the LSSJ was not supposed to exist)

SSJ3 is the only universal form in the series that genuinely has no build up prior to its first appearance. I know Goku had his reasons to not use it against Vegeta, but that don't erase the fact that the fight against Majin Vegeta or anything prior to Goku meeting up with Babidi and Boo leave no hints to Goku having a new form, it truly comes out as a surprise, and okay, that was Toriyama's decision, but it goes against the narrative structure of introducing forms that he showed prior to the Boo Saga and after it as well, it's not random.

That said, I think Vegeta had the best introduction to SSJ3 in the entire franchise so far, Goku's was a surprise, Gotenks trained, but it also came as a surprise for us. With Vegeta, we actually saw his struggle, and how his fight against Tamagami N.2 was pushing him to go beyond SSJ2. So his SSJ3 ends up being the best from a narrative view point for that reason imo. I think Goku's introduction to SSJ4 also is superior to SSJ3 in the Boo arc for similar reasons, especially because of Neva's supernatural finger on it. The reveal that came later with Goku saying that he was training but wasn't sure that he could transform also adds more substance to the form than simply coming as a full surprise, even though I continue not liking it, I think in Vegeta's case, it was deserved, unlike Goku and Gotenks, which I believe was akin to Goten and Present Trunks getting the SSJ1.

Before Elder Kaioshin pulled Goku tail, Goku was grinding coffee as a way for his tail to grow. Technically pulling Goku tail was so he could turn into his Oozaru form, Goku gaining SSJ4 was from gaining control of his Super Oozaru form. Goku never had control of Oozaru form, he always lost control of himself.

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.
Just like there's more to Daima SSJ4 that simply "getting a McGuffin from Neva". That's not the only thing that happened. He didn't just show up and get handed the form on a silver platter. He was given the form only after getting slaughtered by Gomah in his lower forms. Daima Goku still struggled to get his new form.

So I agree with what you two said here, the only problem is that I think Neva clearly had the potential to be the central figure of a training arc / subplot in Daima, working as a master for Goku to achieve this new power up in a more deep way just like how he got some of his new techniques and other forms. But ended up not happening, I think Neva also being behind this power could give the opportunity to make more clear that the form was linked to the Makai and could not be used in the Mortal Reality, but that's just me desiring Daima to be completely connected to Super, but well, they decided to make it vague instead.
While my problem with GT SSJ4 is not exactly with the transformation but how it exposes that GT lacks the core element of Dragon Ball that contributes to the characters getting stronger. Goku should not stay as a kid after acquiring the SSJ4 imo. Which I think something Daima did right, SSJ4 had its mini version and Goku later accessed it on free will as a adult, and had its supernatural origins.

[Zephyr]

The problem is Goten, who's still feels very much like Trunks' sidekick to me and I also think no one was really able to make his character work independently. Even when he had his big dramatic moment which was Chichi's Death to Super Boo, right after it, he was only really there to fuse with Trunks and do nothing more after it. In the old Z movies focused on the duo (Broly 2 & 3), Trunks was still the one moving the story forward while he was only there to assist. Same goes for the Jelly Arc or the very early filler in the Super anime. Aside from fusion he's pretty much obsolete in Z Movie 13, where Trunks is like, literally the protagonist alongside Tapion and Goku. In GT, Trunks is the one who travels to space with the rest of the trio lol.
It makes me wonder what Toyotaro actually plans to do with this character, as he showed interest. Not even Toriyama and Toei managed to make him his own "individually developed character", and neither Toyotaro himself did in his Highschool arc, so...

Yeah, that is interesting. Even Gotenks kind of feels like more an extension of Trunks specifically than a combination of the two, with how little Goten is presented or developed as an independent character. In a way, Goten is functionally like the Chaozu to Trunks' Tenshinhan. Not really much of an independent character, mostly just the secondary part of an iconic pair. I think Kibito also comes to mind to an extent.