How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[Onikage725]

It just feels way too off for him to have made any kinds of major power gains while on King Kai's. I mean, even if you take the average daily gains he made on Earth training for the Saiya-jins and amplify them 10x over you still get a power of 4,008 after 6 days. Course, I have the same trouble wraping my head around Goku's Zenkai on Namek....

I tend to agree, and I really don't even buy Goku's zenkai. But ridiculous or not, he did *something* while dead.

We know that fusion yields a HUGE increase in power. Far more than simply adding A and B to each other, especially with the Potara's were the stronger person doesn't have to lower their power to match the weaker one. We know this because of how much power Gotenks had in comparison to Trunks and Goten. Base Gotenks got battered up pretty good but not much worse than Majin Vegeta had and there's no way either of them are half of Majin Vegeta's power in their base forms.

I figure with Jeice and Burter at 50,000 each that a fusion (either one, since their powers are the same) would produce a power of 500k. Enough to match somewhat well with first form Freeza.

Eh, I don't rely on the Saiyans for those things, because it seems almost like the fusion's magical properties act similar to Gohan's magical power up- like they can use higher levels of power without being totally reliant on transformations. Not one fusee uses SSJ2, and SSJ3 only seems to be used by Gotenks as a way of showing off. Since the transformations really just exist to allow the body to manipulate more ki, I just assume that the magical properties of fusion (and having a double-strong body) make transformation less needed. I realize this is pure speculation though.

I was going by what I remembered in the anime. When they showed that it basicly stated that Piccolo hadn't trained with them and had ignored King Kai since his arrival and just sat there meditating the entire time.

My two thoughts- manga they show nothing. So we can technically let our imagination run wild. Anime, he did catch Bubbles (effortlessly overcoming the gravity), and he did spar with the others. Remember, Kaio had to "reset" because he wrecked Chaozu?

But anyway, I don't see who the base is mattering in the slightest.

I mainly based that on his conversation with Kami, where they choose the base user because Piccolo is stronger (younger, warrior type, better trained, etc).

Likewise, if fusion healed, and Nail was (at full health) a vastly superior warrior, why not just use him to fuse (besides the obvious need to keep Piccolo on cast)? That's why I tend to think that for some ridiculous plot-contrived and unexplained reason, Piccolo improved dramatically while on Kaio's.

[SSj_Rambo]

Likewise, if fusion healed, and Nail was (at full health) a vastly superior warrior, why not just use him to fuse (besides the obvious need to keep Piccolo on cast)? That's why I tend to think that for some ridiculous plot-contrived and unexplained reason, Piccolo improved dramatically while on Kaio's.

I always thought that while one Namek Piccolo was more powerfull than Nail, considering his training on King Kaio's planet and all of his other training on Earth.

[Rocketman]

I always thought that while one Namek Piccolo was more powerfull than Nail, considering his training on King Kaio's planet and all of his other training on Earth.

Nail was 42,000.

Piccolo was about 3000 when he died.

He trained for six days with King Kai. SIX DAYS!

[Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece]

I always thought that while one Namek Piccolo was more powerfull than Nail, considering his training on King Kaio's planet and all of his other training on Earth.

Nail was 42,000.

Piccolo was about 3000 when he died.

He trained for six days with King Kai. SIX DAYS!

A Nail vs Vegeta (on Earth) Scenario just ran through my head. And it was amazing.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I always thought that while one Namek Piccolo was more powerfull than Nail, considering his training on King Kaio's planet and all of his other training on Earth.

Nail was 42,000.

Piccolo was about 3000 when he died.

He trained for six days with King Kai. SIX DAYS!

Regardless of how illogical it seems to us, Nail (at 42,000) was thoroughly impressed with Piccolo's power.

[Drunken Master]

It's not that illogical...You guys are just applying common sense to something which can't be discussed with common sense. All the math you can do is wrong, always...You can't be that logical with something like this. It's simple...Akira Toriyama had to make his heroes stronger faster because his villains were ridiculously strong. Bare with me, haven't read Dragon Ball in a long time, and my memory sucks...Okay, In example...

Goku trains with Kami for three years right? Yeah, he gets pretty strong, but it's not completely off the scale. Now, Tenshinhan trains with Kami for man...I forgot how long, but it's something like 6 months, and he's not even training with Kami the whole time, because they completed the training really fast. He goes from 250, to being able to one-shot a 1,200 saibaman. He's gotta be at least around 2,000. That's a way bigger increase that what Goku got. You pretty much apply this scenario with everything else, and it makes sense. Piccolo being incredibly strong after a short time at Kaios, Tenshinhan gets really strong after his kaio and earth training, strong enough to hold off Cell for awhile anyhow. Yamcha getting mistaken for Goku by the Androids. I mean, earth training shouldn't affect them anymore in the Cell arc right? But just by training normally for three years, Gohan easily turns SSj, Piccolo becomes strong enough for Krillin to compare him to a SSj, then of course Ten holding down Cell...

So anyhow...Now let's take this question on hand.

-Tenshinhan wanted harder training than Kaio gave Goku
-Why would Kaio not do that? So he got harder training...
-With sparring partners the whole time
-And stayed much longer than Goku did

How strong is Tenshinhan after he is revived?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku trains with Kami for three years right? Yeah, he gets pretty strong, but it's not completely off the scale. Now, Tenshinhan trains with Kami for man...I forgot how long, but it's something like 8 months, and he's not even training with Kami the whole time, because they completed the training really fast. He goes from 250, to being able to one-shot a 1,200 saibaman. He's gotta be around 2,000.

Well, Goku was training for his battle Piccolo, and the humans were training for beings beyond Raditz's power. So we know they'll likely gain considerably more power then Goku. Goku also had to learn other things, and didn't have as many guys to spar with.

That's a way bigger increase that what Goku got. You pretty much apply this scenario with everything else, and it makes sense. Piccolo being incredibly strong after a short time at Kaios, Tenshinhan gets really strong after his kaio and earth training, strong enough to hold off Cell for awhile anyhow.

Piccolo didn't have to be in incredibly more powerful, though. Once he fuses with Nail, his power from Kaio's just seems pathetic, considering he went above Freeza. Tien's attack was impressive, yes; however, it doesn't really mean he's all that strong. Shin held SSJ2 Gohan down, and many consider him to be around Android #17, if not weaker. You can still be useful, even if the power level is shitty compared to others.

Yamcha getting mistaken for Goku by the Androids. I mean, earth training shouldn't affect them anymore in the Cell arc right? But just by training normally for three years, Gohan easily turns SSj, Piccolo becomes strong enough for Krillin to compare him to a SSj, then of course Ten holding down Cell...

Piccolo trained with SSJ Goku, so that helps a whole lot; Gohan didn't turn into a SSJ until the rosat, and was stated to be weaker then Gero, along with Tien & Krillin. Gero had data from Goku when he was "over 8,000" against Vegeta, so if you give Yamcha a couple more increases, considering Goku used Kaioken, Yamcha could be around 30-40,000 after training for three years.

[Drunken Master]

Well, Goku was training for his battle Piccolo, and the humans were training for beings beyond Raditz's power. So we know they'll likely gain considerably more power then Goku. Goku also had to learn other things, and didn't have as many guys to spar with.

Well, considering how tough Popo and Kami were at that point, I believe he had good enough sparring partners, most likely Popo, as Kami watched and gave him pointers and whatever. Popo and Kami taught them the same things, and there power increases were way different, it's illogical in common sense.

Piccolo didn't have to be in incredibly more powerful, though. Once he fuses with Nail, his power from Kaio's just seems pathetic, considering he went above Freeza. Tenshinhan's attack was impressive, yes; however, it doesn't really mean he's all that strong. Shin held SSJ2 Gohan down, and many consider him to be around Android #17, if not weaker. You can still be useful, even if the power level is shitty compared to others.

Well Piccolo didn't have to be that powerful, but he was at that point, if Nail commented on his power the way he did. And then, Piccolo himself says his power has increased very nicely. I agree with you on the Kaioshin/Gohan Ten/Cell comparison, I know Tenshinhan was not close to Cell's power, but being at #17's level is still damn strong, so seeing Tenshinhan at the same ratio as that comparison is pretty cool to think about. It's like saying Tenshinhan is around Freeza's power when he was in his "first" or "second" form. He really has to be around that power to hold off Cell, it's the only way.

Piccolo trained with SSJ Goku, so that helps a whole lot; Gohan didn't turn into a SSJ until the rosat, and was stated to be weaker then Gero, along with Tenshinhan & Krillin. Gero had data from Goku when he was "over 8,000" against Vegeta, so if you give Yamcha a couple more increases, considering Goku used Kaioken, Yamcha could be around 30-40,000 after training for three years.

Well, training with SSJ Goku does have it's benefits, but it's still normal gravity training, but the results were amazing. As for Gohan, in the manga, Gohan almost turns SSj, almost immediately in the ROSAT, meaning his base power had to increase like crazy. As for Yamcha...Gero isn't stupid, he probably took the power data from the strongest point of which Goku was at during that fight, and being not stupid, most likely knew Goku would increase in power in time, so I know it's hard to grasp for some, but Yamcha could have easily been around 180,000 if Gero thought that in that time, Goku may have doubled his power. Even still, why would Gero make himself soooo much stronger than what Goku could have been? I mean, Gero was no slouch in power, why would he be so strong if he thought Goku would be around 180,000? Which of course leads me to believe that 180,000 is till too low for what he though Goku would be, I mean...he even brought a partner to help him kill Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, considering how tough Popo and Kami were at that point, I believe he had good enough sparring partners, most likely Popo, as Kami watched and gave him pointers and whatever. Popo and Kami taught them the same things, and there power increases were way different, it's illogical in common sense.

While I agree, Goku training seemed more focused on enhancing his other abilitiies instead of his power only. I think Popo even says Goku has to learn to fight with his mind, or a quote along those lines. It seemed like the humans training was more to the point of increasing their power. Like, if Yaji surpassed Kami so quickly, it would have to be solely on power in my opinion, because Yaji doesn't seem like he would be into meditating or whatever else Kami was doing with Goku.

Well Piccolo didn't have to be that powerful, but he was at that point, if Nail commented on his power the way he did. And then, Piccolo himself says his power has increased very nicely. I agree with you on the Kaioshin/Gohan Ten/Cell comparison, I know Tenshinhan was not close to Cell's power, but being at #17's level is still damn strong, so seeing Tenshinhan at the same ratio as that comparison is pretty cool to think about. It's like saying Tenshinhan is around Freeza's power when he was in his "first" or "second" form. He really has to be around that power to hold off Cell, it's the only way.

I do believe the quote does hold some merit. Even if put Piccolo at 20,000 post Kaio's, couldn't that be considered astonishing? He had knowledge on Piccolo, and I thought he would just call Piccolo a weakling, considering Piccolo is still mean at this point to an extent. If Nail pissed him off, Piccolo would've likely kept going, and we already know Piccolo was reluctant to merge with him. Cell also seemed surprised at being stopped by Tien, I think he says: "Stopped by Tien of all people!" Tien also deflected Buus' fireball, and I doubt he was anywhere in the hundred millions by that point. When Chaitzu tried to stop Nappa, it was useless, so it's likely that a certain level of power is needed, even though Shin Ki-Ko-Ho is totally different.

Another good reference, is Guldo using Telekinesis against Gohan & Krillin. He was stated to be pathetic by Vegeta & Krillin, and yet, he summons up enough power to stop them. Tien's attack was so draining, that it nearly wiped him out. I'm not going to say Tien wasn't in the millions, but I don't think he had to be for that attack to be useful.

Well, training with SSJ Goku does have it's benefits, but it's still normal gravity training, but the results were amazing. As for Gohan, in the manga, Gohan almost turns SSj, almost immediately in the ROSAT, meaning his base power had to increase like crazy. As for Yamcha...Gero isn't stupid, he probably took the power data from the strongest point of which Goku was at during that fight, and being not stupid, most likely knew Goku would increase in power in time, so I know it's hard to grasp for some, but Yamcha could have easily been around 120,000.

It always seems to be better when you're training with someone many times more powerful, even if the gravity is basic. Piccolo trained enough before Mecha Freeza arrived, and was considered to possibly be the one to destroy him by Goku, when he asked them about the chi he felt.

I also don't think Gohan had to be at a certain level to attain SSJ. When we see SSJ Trunks training with base Gohan, he's clearly the weaker one, since all of his attacks are being blocked by him. I'm sure Trunks was barely into the millions as a SSJ, or probably slightly abovem or close to the ten millions, which is still weak. Gero's calculations would've likely been accurate, but his data scanner sucks, so for all we know, Yamcha could just be above 40,000 or more. He could be above Ginyu, but he shouldn't have acted like such a coward, because that's not really a bad level.

[Drunken Master]

Damn, I knew you were reading and about to post, I edited my last post a couple of times before you posted if you wanted to know. I gotta go for now though. I just thought of the Gero stuff on a whim, and got all excited because it sounds pretty plausible to me, haha. I'll reply a bit later.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Oh, that's cool. I'll just respond to that portion:

Even still, why would Gero make himself soooo much stronger than what Goku could have been? I mean, Gero was no slouch in power, why would he be so strong if he thought Goku would be around 180,000? Which of course leads me to believe that 180,000 is till too low for what he though Goku would be, I mean...he even brought a partner to help him kill Goku.

I guess just to make sure there would be no way he would lose. Just look at the real Androids: They're far more powerful then any regular SSJ, and #17 is equal to a Piccolo that's powered-up through merging, and being compared to a SSJ before that. If Gero's data had Goku around, let's say, 20-40,000,000 at the most, there should be no reason why the Androids should've been as powerful as they were.

Gero stated that he devoted too much of the programming to the infinite energy reactor, which made them so powerful, they refused to listen to him. Either Gero wanted to be 100% sure there would be no potential power-up for Goku or anyone to access, or, his data showed him a reason why the Androids should be overpowered to wipe out the Z-warriors.

Was Gero even after Goku at this point? He was even surprised that they arrived at the island, and told #19 to not go after Goku, because they could attack him later. Goku didn't even seem to be a main priority in my opinion.

[Rocketman]

As for Yamcha...Gero isn't stupid, he probably took the power data from the strongest point of which Goku was at during that fight, and being not stupid, most likely knew Goku would increase in power in time, so I know it's hard to grasp for some, but Yamcha could have easily been around 180,000 if Gero thought that in that time, Goku may have doubled his power. Even still, why would Gero make himself soooo much stronger than what Goku could have been? I mean, Gero was no slouch in power, why would he be so strong if he thought Goku would be around 180,000? Which of course leads me to believe that 180,000 is till too low for what he though Goku would be, I mean...he even brought a partner to help him kill Goku.

My response to this from another topic:

"Gero's data is based on Goku's increases [beginning] from when he thrashed the RRA, where he peaks at 416, if you cut out the miracle-from-death boost.

Goku gets about a 4 fold increase in the ten years prior to his death (he had to be near 100 to evenly match Roshi at the 21st), then gets a 20-fold increase from special circumstances that won't be repeated.

So, four years....about a 2-fold increase, if he continues on the path he'd been going. Bump it up some to the 'extreme rate of growth', puts Goku in the 20,000s.

Of course, Gero also knows of the Kaioken and that Goku's PL can be temporarily increased 3-fold from concentrating ki into a Kamehameha...Give him 25,000 base battle-ready power, Kaioken x10 (Gero's seen up to x4 and can reasonably assume Goku would learn to push it further), a times five increase when charging a Super Kamehameha... 1,250,000. Build in a margin of error, say, put himself and #19 at 2,000,000, and they're comfortably beyond what Goku should be able to do at his absolute max.

Except Goku and Vegeta became Super Saiyans and Piccolo fused with Nail, but hey."

[goodguy777]

My responses to this topic:

Its all opinion, only a dragon ball-manga guide is accurate and not an opinion by nobody. No matter how many theories you made without toriyama's supervision, its still not counted as accurate information of dragon ball.

[Captain Awesome]

I really don't get the power levels people are quoting here.

Goku's 20x Kaio Ken against Freeza gives us a pretty good ball park figure for power levels, but people still seem to insist the SSJ's were in the tens of millions.

People are ignoring the figures the manga gives us.

[Xyex]

to being able to one-shot a 1,200 saibaman. He's gotta be at least around 2,000.

2,000? You underestimate the amount of power held in a point. A power of 1,320 could oneshot a Saibamen with complete ease. Wouldn't even see it coming.

Even still, why would Gero make himself soooo much stronger than what Goku could have been? I mean, Gero was no slouch in power, why would he be so strong if he thought Goku would be around 180,000? Which of course leads me to believe that 180,000 is till too low for what he though Goku would be, I mean...he even brought a partner to help him kill Goku.

My thoughts are the same as Rocketman's, though a bit higher.

I figure he expected the most extreme rate of growth for Goku would put him around 40 thousand. Couple that with extreme use of the Kaioken (say, x30) and up to trippling his power output via the Kamehameha and you've got a Goku cappable of 3.6 million at best. Make youself round 5 times higher than that to allow for anything unexpected and you've got an 18,000,000 Gero.

But Goku abused the system. He got Zenkai's out the ass, trained in 100g gravity, and became a Super Saiya-jin.

I really don't get the power levels people are quoting here.

Goku's 20x Kaio Ken against Freeza gives us a pretty good ball park figure for power levels, but people still seem to insist the SSJ's were in the tens of millions.

People are ignoring the figures the manga gives us.

A lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around numbers that big. I did for a time, but after going over the fight and such some more came to realize that they had to be high like that to make logical sense. Others just try to make up stuff to explain their lower numbers.

Though I don't hold to the Daizenshuu's numbers. As I've said in other threads I have SSJ Goku as exactly 100 million.

[Rocketman]

People are ignoring the figures the manga gives us.

The manga doesn't give any figures.

Anyway, I subscribe to the notion that "Goku is already using the 10x Kaioken" means he was using it for the whole fight.

A bit silly, yes. But I think it's less silly than "Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one Zenkai where he wasn't even hurt that badly" or "Goku jumps between normal and x10 the whole fight but takes the same damage in both", or "a 60,000,000 Freeza just smashed 3,000,000 Goku's face in, but didn't even knock him off his feet or do any damage but a nosebleed".

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Anyway, I subscribe to the notion that "Goku is already using the 10x Kaioken" means he was using it for the whole fight.

Except for the fact that that's ridiculous. The Kaiô-Ken aura doesn't even appear until the start of the chapter in which that line was stated (when him and Freeza decide to stop their warm-up).

And near the end of the fight, when Goku is using the Genki-Dama (after having lost most of his power using the Kaiô-Ken x 20/Kamehameha combo), there's no way he could be using the Kaiô-Ken anymore (why would he be? He was just standing there charging the Genki-Dama), he takes plenty of hits from 50% Freeza without dying.

[Drunken Master]

2,000? You underestimate the amount of power held in a point. A power of 1,320 could oneshot a Saibamen with complete ease. Wouldn't even see it coming.

I wasn't saying that it took a power of 2,000 to do that, just that I think he was around 2,000. I should have made that more clear.

While I agree, Goku training seemed more focused on enhancing his other abilitiies instead of his power only. I think Popo even says Goku has to learn to fight with his mind, or a quote along those lines. It seemed like the humans training was more to the point of increasing their power. Like, if Yaji surpassed Kami so quickly, it would have to be solely on power in my opinion, because Yaji doesn't seem like he would be into meditating or whatever else Kami was doing with Goku.

Well, Popo says you have to make your heart still, crouch as quiet as the sky and strike quicker than lightning, that's the first thing he taught Goku, and when the others went there, he made an example of Ten, since he was the strongest and told Tenshinhan to attack him, and showed him that he couldn't hit him, and told him the reason. So there training was pretty much the same from what the manga shows.


Okay, so all this discussion, but no answers or opinions of the people...

How strong do you think he was? Hmmm...?

[Rocketman]

Well, Popo says you have to make your heart still, crouch as quiet as the sky and strike quicker than lightning, that's the first thing he taught Goku, and when the others went there, he made an example of Ten, since he was the strongest and told Tenshinhan to attack him, and showed him that he couldn't hit him, and told him the reason. So there training was pretty much the same from what the manga shows.

That part's not in the manga. One panel is shown of everybody training after the part where ChiChi finds out Goku's dead and Piccolo's got Gohan, then they aren't shown again for two chapters, when Kami says he has nothing more to teach them.

[Herms]

to being able to one-shot a 1,200 saibaman. He's gotta be at least around 2,000.

2,000? You underestimate the amount of power held in a point. A power of 1,320 could oneshot a Saibamen with complete ease. Wouldn't even see it coming.

Based on what?