Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[lord turbo]

It would be glorious if someone told toriyama how he freaking forgets important plot points, is there not anyone on the staff that has decent knowledge on dbz so they can correct him? Geez. I'm still hype tho. It could also be taken as that shenron doesn't want to revive freeza, so he tries to make up excuses. It would be plausible if it was stated :S

I feel the staff are too passive submissive and polite to mention such a thing, but its a good thing we live in the age of the internet because there are some Japanese that are vocal enough to express dislike like the ones constantly complaining about SSJ Gohan back when BoGs had its first trailer and again seeing SSJ Gohan in the last RoF trailer. The problem is if 1. If those complaints reach Toriyama's ears and 2. If he gives a damn.

[EmmaWinters]

This is how Toriyama's always done things.

First, you needed to preserve the bodies in order to resurrect the dead. Then later on, bodies are recreated from nothing. This time around, they get summoned as-is from the afterlife.

Speaking of the afterlife: First, people are clouds when they die. But then immediately after we're shown this, Enma explains how he physically subdued Raditz, and a dog-man with a body waits in line. Later, you don't keep your body at all. Now, you apparently do again.

Don't get me started on Shenlong. He grants one wish for most of the series until Dende upgrades him. Then it's two wishes. Then it's three in the Buu arc out of nowhere, but only two are granted due to a new rule added in the middle of the story arc that only Piccolo seemed to be aware of. Now it's back to one wish again for Battle of Gods and Revival of "F".

Then there's Goku, who went from maxing out at 924 against Raditz to 150 million against Freeza in ~13 months.

[vegitot]

Sure, if you completely ignore every single explained and built in reason why the Saiyajins can pull off the BS they do and apply it to every other single character just cause...

Totally agree with you! I mean the way the Saiyans get stronger for short periods of training, fighting or zenkai is something that was developed throughout the series. That's why some fans don't take so nicely Freeza "realization" that he was a prodigy and in 4 months he would surpass Son Goku.

The whole concept of "Zenkai" wasn't even introduced or explained until the Namek arc, which was only done so that the Saiyans could keep up with Freeza and his elite soldiers. And after that point the whole idea of Zenkai's was never brought again until Super Perfect Cell appeared. Zenkai was only created for the purpose of making the Saiyan's the top dogs again. So why can't Freeza get the same privilege? I mean he's technically more naturally stronger than the most of the cast.

Beyond God level=>The most impressive bug of all times.

[Kakarot9001]

How about SSJ transformation in this movie? Will Goku and Vegeta transform in the battle against Freeza or they will fight with him in base state? Also Goku and Vegeta after absorbing godly powers made their base forms to be strong as their SSJ forms?

[Herms]

It would be glorious if someone told toriyama how he freaking forgets important plot points, is there not anyone on the staff that has decent knowledge on dbz so they can correct him?

Toriyama himself has repeatedly admitted that he has a terrible memory and has forgotten much of DB's story. And he's also had people point out to him things he's forgotten in many interviews. The one he did with Oda where he can't remember Tao Pai Pai is probably most famous, but there's many other examples. When working on BoG he had to have someone point out that No.18 didn't have purple hair, and that Super Saiyan 2 wasn't the one with long hair and no eyebrows. Toriyama even noted back when Ooishi drew the JSAT special manga adaptation that Ooishi remembers far more about DB than he does, which is one reason he left the manga adaptation up to her. Seriously, it's a constant point of discussion in Toriyama interviews. I don't know what more you could possibly want.

[Black_Liger]

It would be glorious if someone told toriyama how he freaking forgets important plot points, is there not anyone on the staff that has decent knowledge on dbz so they can correct him?

Toriyama himself has repeatedly admitted that he has a terrible memory and has forgotten much of DB's story. And he's also had people point out to him things he's forgotten in many interviews. The one he did with Oda where he can't remember Tao Pai Pai is probably most famous, but there's many other examples. He also noted back when Ooishi drew the JSAT special manga adaptation that Ooishi remembers far more about DB than he does. Seriously, it's a constant point of discussion in Toriyama interviews. I don't know what more you could possibly want.

It would be nice if some japanese fans could make this go to Toriyama, if they managed to change SSJ Gohan, they might be able to put up a good audio excuse for it Say, "Shenlong could mentally state that he brought chopped up Freeza on purpose"

[Herms]

It would be nice if some japanese fans could make this go to Toriyama, if they managed to change SSJ Gohan, they might be able to put up a good audio excuse for it Say, "Shenlong could mentally state that he brought chopped up Freeza on purpose"

What would the point of that be, honestly? I don't see how that would improve the movie. Even with Gohan in BoG, while it's always great to see Ultimate Gohan in action again, I can't say it would have been a terrible tragedy if they just had him as Super Saiyan throughout. These little details seem important to us long-term fans, and it can be nice when they're acknowledged, but if they pay too much attention to them then the story just gets bogged down in nitpicky details most of the audience won't care about or understand.

[SaiyanZ]

I think we just want consistency among the plot points in the series. We don't want Shenron being able to grant one wish again after the Buu arc without explanation, same thing with Freeza's body or w/e it is in a cocoon. Other series & shonen really don't have this problem, but I feel Toriyama should pay attention to his own series and make sure whatever he's trying to write makes sense within the logic of the series, unless he's intentionally writing it in a subtle manner (like leaving us clues here and there for us to pick up on and connect the dots together to come up with some explanation for some scenario).

[TheGmGoken]

Toei or none of his editors can yell Toriyama that he forgot something?

[Black_Liger]

It would be nice if some japanese fans could make this go to Toriyama, if they managed to change SSJ Gohan, they might be able to put up a good audio excuse for it Say, "Shenlong could mentally state that he brought chopped up Freeza on purpose"

What would the point of that be, honestly? I don't see how that would improve the movie. Even with Gohan in BoG, while it's always great to see Ultimate Gohan in action again, I can't say it would have been a terrible tragedy if they just had him as Super Saiyan throughout. These little details seem important to us long-term fans, and it can be nice when they're acknowledged, but if they pay too much attention to them then the story just gets bogged down in nitpicky details most of the audience won't care about or understand.

consistency that's the only thing I want, can't he just read his manga again? it's not like he has to read it all, just the Freeza saga, maybe just the end of it, maybe just research the parts when the dragon gets summoned as to NOT CHANGE ANYTHING IMPORTANT. With this, HOW THE HELL the victims of Buu saga got revived!? O.O HOW THE HELL, they should have atleast been revived in pieces, and to top it all toriyama seems to remember Trunks killed freeza, but just doesn't remember the last blast.... :C I will love this movie, but Toriyama is making DB a plothole warehouse.

[SaiyanZ]

I don't think its too plot-hole heavy, its just that the writing is vague. The plot-holes I don't think are necessarily too major to bring down the quality of the series drastically, as I think the good severely outweighs the bad. But just explanation and/or remembrance of the finer details should be done, I have never seen another shonen have this problem.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I have to agree here. If he could have an editor during serialization that helps him to attempt to maintain consistency, I don't see what that shouldn't at least be an option for the films as well. They can still let him run free, but just read the script and make some notes on bigger continuity issues (it's not like he doesn't have someone like Toyble or Ooishi around?). I don't mean just shit some people don't like, I'm talking mostly about things like dates, ages, number of wishes that can be granted, etc. He doesn't even have to change anything he's written if he doesn't want to, just address it. Gohan's not Ultimate? "Oh, it wore off." Shenlong only grants one wish? "Dende has seen Pilaf gathering the DBs, so he lowered the wish count." Stuff like that. Some fans may not like the answers, but at least they have them.

I mean, I can't see the negative side to it at all. The more casual or newer fans are unlikely to be aware of the specifics anyway, and the long-term fans get some very basic consistency (that shouldn't be too hard to maintain in the first place for anyone that isn't Toriyama) as a reward for remaining a fan.

I'm still going to enjoy the film regardless, but that tiny bit of extra effort for consistency would still make a world of difference.

[TheGmGoken]

I heard even casual fans complain about Ultimate Gohan. I believe basic stuff should be explained. The wishes I can understand not explaining.

[Dayspring]

consistency that's the only thing I want, can't he just read his manga again? it's not like he has to read it all, just the Freeza saga, maybe just the end of it, maybe just research the parts when the dragon gets summoned as to NOT CHANGE ANYTHING IMPORTANT. With this, HOW THE HELL the victims of Buu saga got revived!? O.O HOW THE HELL, they should have atleast been revived in pieces, and to top it all toriyama seems to remember Trunks killed freeza, but just doesn't remember the last blast.... :C I will love this movie, but Toriyama is making DB a plothole warehouse.

This is a misconception fandom has thanks to the "Z" era of Dragonball. Toriyama was never one to bother letting plotholes get in the way of a good story. Remember how Cell got to the 763: because of a plothole involving the Trunks of his timeline. Meanwhile, what you're saying isn't much of a plothole. When the dragons reconstitute bodies, they're doing it as a favor to the wishmaker. Porunga even says so when he brings back Krillin. In the Demon Piccolo arc, Bulma even makes cryo pods in order to keep the bodies from decomposing.

[Drayenko]

Mind if I ask, what Trunks plothole?

[UpFromTheSkies]

I don't mind the changes that result from Toriyama's forgetfulness, they're not that big of a deal, I find it kind of funny... But for those who want an in-universe, canon explanation for these things, here you go... http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 27#p852227

[TheDevilsCorpse]

This is a misconception fandom has thanks to the "Z" era of Dragonball. Toriyama was never one to bother letting plotholes get in the way of a good story. Remember how Cell got to the 763: because of a plothole involving the Trunks of his timeline. Meanwhile, what you're saying isn't much of a plothole. When the dragons reconstitute bodies, they're doing it as a favor to the wishmaker. Porunga even says so when he brings back Krillin. In the Demon Piccolo arc, Bulma even makes cryo pods in order to keep the bodies from decomposing.

Here's the big question though. Did Bluma build the cryo pods because she actually needed to preserve Kuririn's body, or did she do it because she thought she had to.
Porunga said he restored Kuririn's body free of charge, but Shenlong has never made such a claim (nor does his grumpy self seem like the type to do so) and we know they can operate on different guidelines. If she hadn't built the pods, would Shenlong have actually revived Kuririn half decomposed back then? He didn't revive Bora with a hole in his chest after all, and he he didn't revive Vegeta with a hole in his chest on Namek either. None of the Namekians on Namek were still injured, nor were Cell's victims after the Cell Games, or Vegeta's from the 25th Budokai. He's never mentioned someone's body being a problem for revival, until Freeza.

Most of Toriyama's inconsistencies during the original manga run were smaller things and spread further apart. These days, for reasons already explained by others though, we're getting a good number of them all in one setting.

[Drayenko]

And Tenshinhan got his hand back after he died against Nappa. It's fairly obvious that when you get revived you get completely restored, has always been like that.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

And Tenshinhan got his hand back after he died against Nappa.

That was likely Kami's doing, as it was stated he restored Chaozu's body so they could all train under North Kaio. Probably tossed on the hand restoral as well.

[lord turbo]

The whole concept of "Zenkai" wasn't even introduced or explained until the Namek arc, which was only done so that the Saiyans could keep up with Freeza and his elite soldiers. And after that point the whole idea of Zenkai's was never brought again until Super Perfect Cell appeared. Zenkai was only created for the purpose of making the Saiyan's the top dogs again.

NDPUs(Near Death Power Ups, I hate seeing the term zenkai) were retroactively used for Goku's Saiyajin growth and to explain why Saiyajins were so overpowered, they had the potential to easily be broken which is what Freeza feared and even had inner monologue about this to himself. Notice Kuririn mentions Goku went through similar back in the day when Vegeta explains the NDPU concept of the Saiyajins to Zarbon during their second match. The idea of NDPUs were brought up for Cell after the Freeza arc, he specifically mentions thanks to the NDPU trait of the Saiyajins is the reason why he came back from his self destruction so much stronger than before.

So why can't Freeza get the same privilege? I mean he's technically more naturally stronger than the most of the cast.

Because Freeza isn't a Saiyajin, this is like complaining why don't Piccolo and the Earthlings gets the same treatment as the Saiyajins when it comes to power ups... Because they aren't members of the Chosen Ones race with legendary super mode status and cosmic being status and et cetera and et cetera. Also, being naturally stronger doesn't make you better than someone. If that was the case Goten and Trunks would be way more relevant than are in the series without the need for fusion. Also, Vegeta and Piccolo was far more powerful than Goku was naturally and yet Goku is far superior to both of them through out the course of the Dragon Ball series generally because he's that special snowflake and they are not. In fact, Goku had a brief conversation somewhere along the lines of that to Vegeta before they began their duel during the Saiyajin arc.

Freeza starting out stronger than Goku and Vegeta does not equal to him being capable of the same BS exclusive to Goku, vegeta, Gohan and other members belonging to their race. Why hell do you think Dragon Ball is usually called the Saiyajin show, because every non-Saiyajin person doesn't matter. Hell, Vegeta outright stated this during the Cell arc when it came to fighting power and has been right ever since. It also doesn't help that when ever talking about why Freeza is so strong Toriyama always mentions its because he's a freak of nature basically, not because he's "Oh he's a battle genius prodigy that evolves with every fight, learns instantly with everything fight, born and breed by design to be ridiculous asspulling evolving race of the entire universe constantly like the Saiyajins are". Plus, villains usually don't get the same benefits as the good guys do because that's not how these series work in general. Also main character privileges don't hurt either.

I shouldn't really have to explain this to you at all when you ask "Why can't X character do the same thing as Goku and said Saiyajin character can"? Well, because said character isn't a Saiyajin, that simple.

Moving onto the subject of Toriyama recent mishaps, he has always been inconsistent sure, but lately its really jarring as there's no need to be this level of inconsistencies, that's what editors are for which explains Toriyama running wild so to speak, he's got no one to keep him in check. He's not writing a weekly series anymore and he literally has his own manga on hand to brush up on old story details to remind himself of this and that, but honestly, I doubt he even does that, he says he does, but lets be honest, he probably skims and leaves it at that as he just does whatever he wants. Oh he remember Trunks killed Freeza, but badly screws up this and that thus proving my point. He's literally doing that thing fans of Star Wars hated when George Lucas needlessly changed things.

I don't want to be that guy but Toriyama, it it ain't broke, please don't fix it. I can't stand things that are needlessly sloppy when there's no need for it and unnecessary change for the sake of change and blah blah blah.

It would be glorious if someone told toriyama how he freaking forgets important plot points, is there not anyone on the staff that has decent knowledge on dbz so they can correct him?

Toriyama himself has repeatedly admitted that he has a terrible memory and has forgotten much of DB's story. And he's also had people point out to him things he's forgotten in many interviews. The one he did with Oda where he can't remember Tao Pai Pai is probably most famous, but there's many other examples. When working on BoG he had to have someone point out that No.18 didn't have purple hair, and that Super Saiyan 2 wasn't the one with long hair and no eyebrows. Toriyama even noted back when Ooishi drew the JSAT special manga adaptation that Ooishi remembers far more about DB than he does, which is one reason he left the manga adaptation up to her. Seriously, it's a constant point of discussion in Toriyama interviews. I don't know what more you could possibly want.

I know some fans just want him to simply put the pen down. I mean honestly, at this point just give all rights to Ooishi, she at least knows about the inner workings of Dragon Ball and how everything goes together, seems consistent, dependable, and is earnestly enthusiastic about drawing Dragon Ball and making new stories that are entertaining for it so why hasn't she taken the reigns yet? Toriyama can give input here and there, but let Ooishi deal with the rest.

It would be nice if some japanese fans could make this go to Toriyama, if they managed to change SSJ Gohan, they might be able to put up a good audio excuse for it Say, "Shenlong could mentally state that he brought chopped up Freeza on purpose"

What would the point of that be, honestly? I don't see how that would improve the movie. Even with Gohan in BoG, while it's always great to see Ultimate Gohan in action again, I can't say it would have been a terrible tragedy if they just had him as Super Saiyan throughout. These little details seem important to us long-term fans, and it can be nice when they're acknowledged, but if they pay too much attention to them then the story just gets bogged down in nitpicky details most of the audience won't care about or understand.

Its filling in gaps, Toriyama has a bad habit of leaving gaps in the story that can be easily explains with one sentence of dialogue. Like the whole SSJ Gohan thing, and yes even the Japanese fans are bewildered by it. No one cares that he does become SSJ, they only want an explanation why he becomes SSJ and Toriyam refuses to own up on that. Why stuff like this keeps happen of course people are going to logical respond in kind and the questions start piling up. Same thing why Goku no longer uses Kaioken in conjunction with SSJ post Freeza arc, a simple explanation of "They are incompatible" will suffice." These things aren't asking for much, just simple confirmations, is that too much to ask for now a days?

Like another poster said, its all about the mechanics of things working within the confines of the rules he established in the universe. Once the point of these rules being firmly mentioned more than once in the main series if he's going to completely butcher it in the next scene with no explanation why this is this? I honestly feel like Toriyama doesn't give a damn which is why these inconsistencies keep piling up. Make a rule, then immediately contradict it with new material with zero explanation why that's the case seems to be the pattern here.

I don't think its too plot-hole heavy, its just that the writing is vague. The plot-holes I don't think are necessarily too major to bring down the quality of the series drastically, as I think the good severely outweighs the bad. But just explanation and/or remembrance of the finer details should be done, I have never seen another shonen have this problem.

Thing is Toriyama himself firmaly makes things clear. The whole "nobody gets bodies except people with special privileges like Goku". This is mention at least 3 times by three different characters, the last time it was mentioned by Piccolo to Vegeta that he would lose his body after he dies and such and such. That's not a minor boo boo, that's a glarring plot hole smacking me in the face really hard. Its that easy to notice do to Toriyama harping on that concept several different times over the course of DBZ, even the Janemba movie off all places got it right when things returned to normal Vegeta lost his body and returned as a cloud spirit.

So why does Freeza have a body in RoF. It doesn't matter because its never properly explained and Toriyama hopes no one is smart enough to realize it. Why is Freeza revived in pieces when everyone else is always restored to normal? Doesn't matter, Toriyama hopes you don't notice and is distracted by the toilet humor. The biggest problem all these inconsistencies can easily be explained with one sentence of dialogue yet the audience isn't even worthy enough to get that, just leave things half ass and go from there. I ain't trying to be a dick here, but this is what I'm observing so far from Toriyama. Oddly enough, Oda from One Piece is the kind of explaining every single inconsistent that's in One Piece in a reasonable fashion it seems, even if most his answers are somewhat comical.