What do you think would have been the best ending point?

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:15 pm

I don't know, I never saw the Frieza saga that way, where it's just negative throughout the whole thing. I mean, yeah, Frieza is a horrible and sadistic person, but someone like him is just waiting to finally get what's coming to him and you knew that karma just had to bite him in the ass. With great villains, the best part is seeing them get murdered in the end while the protagonist is happy. It's just full of plot twists, but unlike the Buu saga, all of the plot twists make sense. I mean, things get bad, but the whole time you know that Goku is gonna be there in a few days and help them out.And sure, the battle with Frieza was tough, but you still had the whole stuff with the Super Saiyan hanging over your head as Goku was getting his ass kicked and Frieza bringing up that it's a silly fairy tale. So with Frieza constantly bringing up, you as a viewer just have to think, "Fuck you, Goku's gonna prove you wrong soon enough, so keep talking now."

And then, Goku finally turns into a Super Saiyan. He makes Frieza eat all of his words. Everything he was saying about the Saiyans being forever inferior to him? Nope, that's done. The Super Saiyan being nothing more than a myth? Turns out he was just being an ignorant asshole after all. These type of caricatures are pretty much designed to be taken down in glorious fashion. Frieza was grovelling in fear, he realized that he every thing that was programmed in his head that was the truth was nothing more than laughable, and that there was someone that was just gonna make him eat is shit and then some and send him to hell, where he belongs. It was his worst nightmare. Everything he did came right back at him ten fold. He was left a shell of his former self, and Goku letting him live was actually appropriate to his character - he was now in the same condition as countless lives he had ruined over the years.

And then, when it is all said and done, the people he was recently tormenting are back, alive and well, there to reflect on what's happened. The Namekians are once again allowed to relive their peaceful lives after the living version of Satan sent them to the afterlife and back. And our heroes are even stronger than ever. It's just great to see everything that was caused by Frieza being repaired and only made sense for it to end the way it ended.

And besides, what kind of ending is that. Everyone's dead, while Gohan is left to grieve. That just sucks. He didn't even do anything important at the end, so it wasn't like things were gonna come in full circle for him. He was just gonna be the strongest in the Universe because everybody that's stronger than him is dead. That's not fulfilling at all.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:16 pm

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:29 pm

His bad-to-good arc was completed in the Saiyan saga when he died for Gohan and admitted he valued what friendship they had.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:33 pm

Rocketman wrote: So? Vegeta's not Goku's rival in the Freeza Saga, he's a bad guy.

Vegeta wanted nothing more than to outclass Goku. There was that drive to get back at Freeza for what he did to his people, but after he saw Goku's power when he arrived on Namek he wouldn't shut up about Super Sayians and how he was really the super Saiyan and not Goku.

I mean you could argue that he was at peace with Goku before he died but...

Piccolo is killed by Freeza's attack, that's why the Dragonballs are gone.

Then every hero in the series(with the exception of Gohan) is dead. Which leads me to ask, what kind of ending is that? After Freeza there was still room for the series to grow, stopping it there would have left this whole...what the fuck just happened feeling...

At least there was closer in the Cell saga. I mean in order for the freeza saga to work you would have to edit the ending, with cell(mana wise) there was closer everyone was at peace.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:38 pm

That's what I'm saying: What the fuck kind of ending is that where everyone but Gohan is dead?

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:39 pm

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:43 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:Not all of us need our stories to be “fulfilling”. Not all of us need our stories to have happy endings were everything works out okay and everyone gets what they want in the end, and the bad guy gets his just deserts. Not all of us need our stories to be formulaic and predictable. Not all of us need our stories to shit sunshine at us 100% of the time. And not all of us see these kinds of things as nothing more than outlets to make ourselves feel good 100% of the time.

I think Dragonball needed those things though.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:43 pm

How often does a popular Shônen not have a happy ending?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:45 pm

JulieYBM wrote:How often does a popular Shônen not have a happy ending?

[Angry rant on how the Cell Saga's leaving King Wuss as protector of Earth invalidates the whole 'happy ending' thing]

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:47 pm

But the storyline pretty much plays out like your typical villain story where everyone prevails in the end, and that's really what would make the most sense. They were on Namek in the first place to bring back dead friends. Ending it with EVERYONE dead but Gohan would just be, "Yeah, they killed Frieza, but what did they really accomplish?" it would just be a huge EPIC FAIL ending. And then the show's over. If they ended the saga like that, then they would just HAVE to make a saga after that focusing on Gohan's attempts to fix everything because that type of ending would be way to open ended, not to mention anti-climactic, to end the whole show on. It's just something that would really need to be followed up on because it's not definite - it just leaves everything up in the air like, "Well what the fuck will they do NOW?" "NO YOU DON'T KNOW BECAUSE We'RE ENDING THE SHOW NOW. TOUGH LUCK, BITCH." It wouldn't be a very good ending, especially for a show like Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is the very definition of Shonen. I can see them ending the Frieza saga like that, but to end the whole shebang like that? That's just asking too much.

Not only would it be an unnatural ending for Toriyama, but it's just bad storytelling because the Frieza saga just didn't play out the same way as a story like King Lear and everything just didn't build towards an ending like that.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:48 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Not all of us need our stories to be “fulfilling”. Not all of us need our stories to have happy endings were everything works out okay and everyone gets what they want in the end, and the bad guy gets his just deserts. Not all of us need our stories to be formulaic and predictable. Not all of us need our stories to shit sunshine at us 100% of the time. And not all of us see these kinds of things as nothing more than outlets to make ourselves feel good 100% of the time.

There’s more than room enough for something within a certain genre to be different, to buck genre convention, and do its own thing, and says “to hell” with making the audience that’s used to things being done a certain way and are expecting a certain outcome to feel good or even comfortable in the end. If that’s what works to make a strong story that leaves a strong impact, then so be it.

Yea but to have everyone drop dead with no resolve what so ever is terrible story writing. Goku didn't sacrifice himself he was condemned to the planet. This is a person who we watched grow up and become to universes hero only to watch him die because he can't escape the planet. In certain stories the shock value of seeing the villain win is brilliant but when the audience grows a personal attachment to a character for more than 10 years..you don't just run off and kill him. That's why the whole idea of having him die via heart attack was such a crazy plot twist for an alternative future. This is Goku, the hero of hero's if he's going to die he has to do it in a noble fashion.

Rocketman wrote:
[Angry rant on how the Cell Saga's leaving King Wuss as protector of Earth invalidates the whole 'happy ending' thing]

invalid and completely different. Goku gave up his life to save everyone he loved and to give Gohan the chance to be the earths savior. It was a noble sacrafice for Goku and a coming of age tale for Gohan. Not to mention he was at peace with his death, and Earth was finally safe.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:55 pm

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:This is Goku, the hero of hero's if he's going to die he has to do it in a noble fashion.

He fulfilled the ancient legend of his race while fighting and defeating the most powerful being in the universe. How is that not noble?

invalid and completely different. Goku gave up his life to save everyone he loved and to give Gohan the chance to be the earths savior. It was a noble sacrafice for Goku and a coming of age tale for Gohan. Not to mention he was at peace with his death, and Earth was finally safe.

Earth is safe with Freeza and Vegeta dead too. And Gohan's hung in there against the tyrant of the whole galaxy.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:57 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:This is Goku, the hero of hero's if he's going to die he has to do it in a noble fashion.
He fulfilled the ancient legend of his race while fighting and defeating the most powerful being in the universe. How is that not noble?

That's not how he died though.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:59 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:This is Goku, the hero of hero's if he's going to die he has to do it in a noble fashion.
He fulfilled the ancient legend of his race while fighting and defeating the most powerful being in the universe. How is that not noble?

But he died because he got owned by an explosion. He wouldn't really go out like a hero. He would just go out as someone who was SOL. Especially since he told Frieza that he'd find a way out.

invalid and completely different. Goku gave up his life to save everyone he loved and to give Gohan the chance to be the earths savior. It was a noble sacrafice for Goku and a coming of age tale for Gohan. Not to mention he was at peace with his death, and Earth was finally safe.
Earth is safe with Freeza and Vegeta dead too. And Gohan's hung in there against the tyrant of the whole galaxy.

But what did he really do? He's only the strongest by default with an ending like that and really didn't end up getting anything out of it. And he still didn't have control over his hidden powers.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:07 pm

Rocketman wrote:
He fulfilled the ancient legend of his race while fighting and defeating the most powerful being in the universe. How is that not noble?

1. There was no connection between Freeza and Goku, Goku just learns about Freeza and the affects on a race he really didn't know. To Goku, his home is Earth, thats were he feels connected. The affect Freeza had on the Sayians didn't really get to him. It wasn't till Krillins Death were Goku started getting vengeful, before that it was just...this was the bad guy and oh boy he's strong.

2. If he were to die it would because the planet exploded. Remember he left Freeza there to die while went to look for a way out, It would be extremely dumb of the writers to go...Nope your out of luck Goku...bye!

Earth is safe with Freeza and Vegeta dead too. And Gohan's hung in there against the tyrant of the whole galaxy.

So he's the hero by default? That makes him more of a wimp then you guys already claim him to be. [/i]

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:09 pm

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:13 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:I think what people are forgetting here is that Goku WILLINGLY stayed on that planet. He didn't HAVE to stick around and decisively beat Freeza fist to fist. He could just as easily have allowed himself to get wished off-world, and left Freeza to die by his own explosion. Goku wasn't "condemned" to the planet... he made a conscious choice. Escape and be safe while seeing his enemy die from a distance, or stay and conclusively settle their score at the cost of his own life. And in true Goku/martial arts hero fashion, he picked the latter. He saw his vendetta settled and his greatest opponent defeated by his own hand, sacrificing himself to see that goal fulfilled in the process.

He didn’t get “owned by the explosion”, he “got owned” by the choice he himself made.

Yes, he chose to stay, but then after he took care of Frieza he frantically looked for a way to escape and seemed pretty confident that he was going to escape. He chose to stay because he was supremely confident in himself and wanted to cripple Frieza's ego more than anything, and then got owned. He was just ballsy enough to take a huge risk so he can get to beat the crap out of someone long overdue for a beating. I mean, as the planet is exploding, he's screaming, "DAMN IT ALL TO HELL!!!!!!" If he was really giving his life, he would have accepted his fate and died with the planet. Instead, he made it a point to tell Frieza that HE was gonna be the one to die with the explosion, while he'd find a way to survive. But he seemingly didn't.

I mean, everyone here says that the Frieza saga was overwhelmingly dark and grim, but I never once got that feeling

. It felt like your typical adventure to me, but a VERY compelling one.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:26 pm

I feel like if it wasn't for that "rumor" about Toriyama wanting to end the series in the Freeza saga, a lot of people wouldn't feel the way they do. I can't believe so many people feel that "Everybody dies but Gohan" is a good ending. To me that's worse than Goku running off to train some stranger...I mean it's just so NOT Dragon Ball. At least that's my opinion.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:31 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:I think what people are forgetting here is that Goku WILLINGLY stayed on that planet. He didn't HAVE to stick around and decisively beat Freeza fist to fist. He could just as easily have allowed himself to get wished off-world, and left Freeza to die by his own explosion. Goku wasn't "condemned" to the planet... he made a conscious choice. Escape and be safe while seeing his enemy die from a distance, or stay and conclusively settle their score at the cost of his own life. And in true Goku/martial arts hero fashion, he picked the latter. He saw his vendetta settled and his greatest opponent defeated by his own hand, sacrificing himself to see that goal fulfilled in the process.

He didn’t get “owned by the explosion”, he “got owned” by the choice he himself made. There's an analogy about "making one's own bed and having to sleep in it" that applies here.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh contradiction much? If you were to go by the freeza ending then...the dragonballs are gone, thus contradicting your own ending choice. Otherwise you are back to square one...the ending that actually happening, you know the one that lead into the Cell arc.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:40 pm