Who is Stronger Questions

[Senzu_Bean]

Goku was standing his ground against Kid Buu one on one. And Kid Buu was also standing his ground against Goku one on one, so their power was similar or approximate.

Untrue. I shall quote Vegeta and Goku themselves:

Vegeta: It’s just like you thought. That Boo turned out to be stronger than we imagined…Both you Kakarotto, and me…

Vegeta: Don’t hold back for me, and go finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo if you gather your ki to the limits…!
Goku: A…ah…I’ve been thinking of doing that for awhile now, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.
Vegeta: Eh?
Goku: If I’m going to wipe him out, I need to gather ki for about a minute~~
Vegeta: One minute!?
Goku: Dammit~~~~If we had the Potara, we could doe him in with one blast….Chih~~~Maybe I showed off too much~~~But I thought things would go a little better…!
Vegeta: …S…So you weren’t concerned about me…
Goku: That bastard…Even though he can return to normal right away, he’s enjoying himself by purposefully taking his time…

And I shall give you all a little bonus:

Goku: Oh, I get it! You were thinking of bring Gohan, Gotenks, and the rest back to life and having them fight for us.

Goku: Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo!! What are you doing?!! Hardly anyone except our friends are giving us their ki!!

If these last two quotes don't clearly show Kid Buu is stronger than everybody alive at the time then I don't know what can... I know, but I'm not going to post right way.

Thanks to Herms for all these translations.

[rereboy]

That dialog implies:

1- That Vegeta thinks that Goku is able to beat and kill Kid Buu.

Why is that? He must be felling both of their Ki, right? So, if he thinks that Goku is able to do it, then Kid Buu can`t be that superior to Goku in terms of power. He can`t be that inferior either, so their powers must be similar or approximate.

2- That Goku actually needs to gather power to be able to beat Kid Buu.

Despite not being that inferior to Kid Buu, Kid Buu proves to be a hard adversary (with regeneration and all), so Goku tells Vegeta that he needs to gather power to beat him, but he admits that, as long as he can do that, he is perfectly able to defeat him.

As for the your last two quotes, the answer to them is the same: suspense. There is no reason at all for not going back to Earth to get Gohan and the kids to help out in the fight, even if they chose to use a Genki Dama. Goku would teleport back to Earth (or Kibitoshin) and bring them to that planet in a few seconds and they would still be able to use the Genki Dama plan if they wanted.
Then why didn`t they? Because in terms of the story, that would be a "stupid" ending. With Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks there, they would win rather easily. The Genki Dama had a much better build up to the finale. And that is also why they need the Ki of all the people on Earth. Mystic Gohan`s ki and the kids` ki (had they fused) should be enough to kill Kid Buu (if the concentrated power of Goku would be able to do it, then certainly the ki of Gohan and Gotenks together would also be able to Kill him) but, that way, the story had a much better build up to the finale (and it also made Mr Satan look good). Its that simple.

[Senzu_Bean]

As for the your last two quotes, the answer to them is the same: suspense.

Okay... I caught this little sentence and didn't bother to read anything more of your post.

I won't even post the other quotes cause... for real?! Anybody who gives an excuse like this really can't be serious.

[VegettoEX]

As for the your last two quotes, the answer to them is the same: suspense.

Okay... I caught this little sentence and didn't bother to read anything more of your post.

I won't even post the other quotes cause... for real?! Anybody who gives an excuse like this really can't be serious.

Drop the attitude. If you have nothing to post other than dismissals of people and the points they want to bring to the table, please do not even bother posting.

Seriously? All you have to say is "Pfft! You said this, so I'm not even going to DIGNIFY your response with further commentary!"...? That is just beyond unacceptable. Next step will be a formal warning, and I will escalate from there.

[rereboy]

As for the your last two quotes, the answer to them is the same: suspense.

Okay... I caught this little sentence and didn't bother to read anything more of your post.

I won't even post the other quotes cause... for real?! Anybody who gives an excuse like this really can't be serious.

Very well. Then do me a favor and read what I said and then answer me this:

- Why didn`t they (Goku or Kibitoshin) go back to Earth to get Gohan and Gotenks to help on the fight, if they could still use the Genki Dama plan with them on Kaioshin`s planet and it wouldn`t take more than a few seconds of teleportation to get them there?

- Why wouldn`t the combined Ki of Mystic Gohan and (SSJ3) Gotenks be enough to destroy Kid Buu if moments ago Goku stated that he could gather enough Ki on his own to be able to destroy Kid Buu?

I look forward to read an answer to these questions that makes perfect sense, other than what I said.

[Savage68]

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)

Because they can sense ki, and they had exercised this ability just a moment beforehand, when Buu was in his 'Buff' state. This doesn't really matter though, since they didn't know how powerful Kid was at this point anyway. It was when Buu created his 2nd Earth-shattering ki blast that they got a decent grasp of his power. And both Goku & (for some reason) Vegeta were still completely up to the task of fighting him, after seeing the pinnacle of his power. Which seems to imply that he was remotely close to their level, unlike Super Buu. Think about it: Since when has Goku feared fighting someone just because they're stronger? That actually excites him. Super Buu wasn't just stronger than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku. He was WAY stronger.

Again, while the transformation is in progress we see Kibitokai scared out of his mind stating that this Buu is the worst of all. He’s completely in a state of PANIC.
Does this count for nothing?

-_-

This is like, the easiest point to tackle; He was panicked because Buu was more dangerous than ever now. This is proved when Buu casually levels the Earth within moments of appearing. Kaioshin's panic was well justified. It doesn't mean Kid Buu is stronger than the last Buu, or even that he's stronger than Freeza. He's just nuts.

When Goku SSJ3 is fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta talks about how NO ONE ELSE but Goku can fight Kid Buu. Doesn’t that imply that no one is stronger than Goku??

Nope. Everyone on Earth was dead.

And those quotes from Herms that are practically obligatory by Kid Buu proponents in this debate do nothing but prove what we already knew: Goku's SSJ3 is crud after a certain point, yet he was still confident that he could kill Kid Buu. And that genki doesn't take a large portion of the user's energy.

[Senzu_Bean]

- Why didn`t they (Goku or Kibitoshin) go back to Earth to get Gohan and Gotenks to help on the fight, if they could still use the Genki Dama plan with them on Kaioshin`s planet and it wouldn`t take more than a few seconds of teleportation to get them there?

I didn't actually understood your question. Are you asking why they didn't bring Gohan and Gotenks, and still use the Genki-Dama? If that is the case then I don't see the point in the question at all.

- Why wouldn`t the combined Ki of Mystic Gohan and (SSJ3) Gotenks be enough to destroy Kid Buu if moments ago Goku stated that he could gather enough Ki on his own to be able to destroy Kid Buu?

Are you actually proposing, for example, if Piccolo would give his ki to a Genki-Dama at the time he fought Raditz he would give plus 1,300 or whatever the actual battle power is while performing the Makankosappo?

It was when Buu created his 2nd Earth-shattering ki blast that they got a decent grasp of his power.

A ki blast which Goku stated he couldn't deflect. I really... Gosh!

This is like, the easiest point to tackle; He was panicked because Buu was more dangerous than ever now.

I would like to know how someone who plays and jokes with his opponents is more dangerous than someone that go for the kill. Care to explain me?

And those quotes from Herms that are practically obligatory by Kid Buu proponents in this debate do nothing but prove what we already knew...

Good for you then. You spare me the trouble to post more quotes.

[Savage68]

A ki blast which Goku stated he couldn't deflect. I really... Gosh!

No, keep going.

It's a ki blast that Goku couldn't stop because...it was a ki blast. Don't those things multiply power? Goku was capable of creating a ki blast that (by his own admission) should've been sufficient enough to wipe out Kid Buu and overpower his regen on top of that. But he actually needed to take time out to reach a certain percentage of his SSJ3 power in order to do so. If Buu's blast really made a significant impression on Goku, he'd wouldn't have even bothered going in to battle with him. He's not an idiot - nor is Buu getting a Final Flash-esque chance to 'multiply' his power with a ki blast again.

I would like to know how someone who plays and joke with his opponents is dangerous than someone that go for the kill. Care to explain me?

No problem; This can be deduced from just a couple of simple points, actually.

Super Buu = Didn't destroy the Earth. Was primarily concerned with fighting strong opponents.
Kid Buu = Destroyed the Earth for no discernible reason, as soon as he appeared.

[Questrider]

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)

Because they can sense ki, and they had exercised this ability just a moment beforehand, when Buu was in his 'Buff' state. This doesn't really matter though, since they didn't know how powerful Kid was at this point anyway. It was when Buu created his 2nd Earth-shattering ki blast that they got a decent grasp of his power. And both Goku & (for some reason) Vegeta were still completely up to the task of fighting him, after seeing the pinnacle of his power. Which seems to imply that he was remotely close to their level, unlike Super Buu. Think about it: Since when has Goku feared fighting someone just because they're stronger? That actually excites him. Super Buu wasn't just stronger than Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku. He was WAY stronger.

Again, while the transformation is in progress we see Kibitokai scared out of his mind stating that this Buu is the worst of all. He’s completely in a state of PANIC.
Does this count for nothing?

-_-

This is like, the easiest point to tackle; He was panicked because Buu was more dangerous than ever now. This is proved when Buu casually levels the Earth within moments of appearing. Kaioshin's panic was well justified. It doesn't mean Kid Buu is stronger than the last Buu, or even that he's stronger than Freeza. He's just nuts.

When Goku SSJ3 is fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta talks about how NO ONE ELSE but Goku can fight Kid Buu. Doesn’t that imply that no one is stronger than Goku??

Nope. Everyone on Earth was dead.

And those quotes from Herms that are practically obligatory by Kid Buu proponents in this debate do nothing but prove what we already knew: Goku's SSJ3 is crud after a certain point, yet he was still confident that he could kill Kid Buu. And that genki doesn't take a large portion of the user's energy.

Again, your view of the transformation scene is different from my own thus it is pointless to discuss this since you will believe that they sensed his Ki whereas I believe they were talking about size. No amount of reasoning between us seems to change this. It doesn't make you right just because you THINK you understand the meaning nor do I give myself the win there either. We agree to disagree, as always Savage.

Also, to say that "everyone else is dead" is actually a pretty poor argument when I think Vegeta meant by and large. Again-this is subject to interpretation.

Lastly, you never answered the most difficult question. You always seem to avoid it!...and so I ask again:

When Goku states that Kid Buu is the strongest/toughest opponent he has ever faced, is that not enough proof to conclude which incarnation of Buu is strongest?

[Senzu_Bean]

It's a ki blast that Goku couldn't stop because...it was a ki blast. Don't those things multiply power?

Yes, they do. A Kamehameha at SSJ3 would deflect that blast if Goku had enough power to do so in an instance.

... he'd wouldn't have even bothered going in to battle with him.

Are you sure you know who Goku is? Cause he didn't IT when Super Buu (merged with Gotenks) attacked him either.

Super Buu = Didn't destroy the Earth. Was primarily concerned with fighting strong opponents.
Kid Buu = Destroyed the Earth for no discernible reason, as soon as he appeared.

Kid Buu fell asleep in front of Goku for God's sake. He destroyed the Earth, so what? Super Buu killed the entire freaking Earth's population besides 4 people. He didn't destroyed Kaioshin Realm or something. Seriously, the argument that Kibitoshin is afraid of Kid Buu because he is the most dangerous doesn't have credit at all.

When Goku states that Kid Buu is the strongest/toughest opponent he has ever faced, is that not enough proof to conclude which incarnation of Buu is strongest?

Yes, it is. *Sigh!*

[hleV]

They didn't get Gohan and Gotenks because Vegeta had another plan. Didn't he say himself that the earthlings should be responsible for themselves? That means giving their energy to the Genki Dama, which is used to destroy Buu.

[Senzu_Bean]

They didn't get Gohan and Gotenks because Vegeta had another plan. Didn't he say himself that the earthlings should be responsible for themselves? That means giving their energy to the Genki Dama, which is used to destroy Buu.

Yep, that is true. But why would Goku say to bring Gohan, Gotenks and the others if Kid Buu is indeed weaker than Super Buu? Suspense as answer doesn't count, sorry.

Gohan would be more than enough. Heck, even Gotenks would be enough.

[Savage68]

Yes, they do. A Kamehameha at SSJ3 would deflect that blast if Goku had enough power to do so in an instance.

Yeah, I know. Which is why I brought up Goku's later actions. Those actions that revealed he needs to actually take time out and power-up to reach a desired point. He can't just turn on SSJ3 and be at max power; His Kamehameha against Kid Buu basically proved this. He only had a moment to try something, and that moment wouldn't have been enough time. Goku was unable to stop Buu's blast because the most he could do in response to it was use some half-assed SSJ3 ki attack that would only serve to waste time, and instead, he could've been escaping.

Are you sure you know who Goku is? Cause he didn't IT when Super Buu (merged with Gotenks) attacked him either.

Uhm, he was still waiting to fuse with Gohan. Where's he going? What's he gonna do, leave? So that Buutenks can continue to pummel Gohan again? Or at the very least, leave, so that Gohan can be distracted from looking for the Potara?

He destroyed the Earth, so what?

So, he was more dangerous than any other Buu, because he destroyed the planet for absolutely no incentive. Super Buu killed the Earth's population for a specific purpose. He didn't just pop out and decide he had a grudge against them, and went from there. All he wanted to do was fight, not cause destruction. That seems to be a stark contrast from Kid Buu, who likes to go around destroying solar systems. Kid Buu is simply more dangerous than Super Buu is, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

But why would Goku say to bring Gohan, Gotenks and the others if Kid Buu is indeed weaker than Super Buu?

Why would he even suggest it, if they're each still weaker than Kid Buu? They would all get one-shotted, since team attacks never work in DB, and they definitely wouldn't work against a stronger enemy with regeneration.

When Goku states that Kid Buu is the strongest/toughest opponent he has ever faced, is that not enough proof to conclude which incarnation of Buu is strongest?

Isn't this a dub line?

[Senzu_Bean]

Goku was unable to stop Buus's blast because the most he could do in response to it was use some half-assed SSJ3 ki attack that would only serve to waste time, and instead, he could've been escaping.

What are you talking about? Goku instantly transformed into SSJ3 and attacked Kid Buu with a full-powered Kamehameha.

No offense but I don't think you know entirely of what you are discussing here.

Uhm, he was still waiting to fuse with Gohan. Where's he going? What's he gonna do, leave? So that Buutenks can continue to pummel Gohan again? Or at the very least, leave, so that Gohan can be distracted from looking for the Potara?

So he is going to leave Kid Buu destroying the whole freaking universe and the Otherworld when he is the only man able to stop him at the time? Yep, it makes sense to me. Definitely!

Kid Buu is simply more dangerous than Super Buu is, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.

Sure he is. That is why he sleeps in front of his enemies and play with them like a puppy plays with a ball.

[Savage68]

What are you talking about? Goku instantly transformed into SSJ3 and attacked Kid Buu with a full-powered Kamehameha.

.........

If his SSJ3 was already at full-power, he wouldn't have been going on and on about how a full-powered Kamehameha would've completely wiped Buu out, nor would Vegeta. If he already used a full-power SSJ3 Kamehameha, they would've immediately known their chances were screwed. This is like saying Goku already used a Genki Dama as soon as the match started. The Kamehameha was Goku's trump card. He didn't start out with it. He even said that he didn't get a chance to use a Kamehameha at full-power.

[Senzu_Bean]

Was that post suppose to help your point?

Goku: Alri~~~~ight, I have to go all out right out of the gate…! If we’re down in, the whole universe will go “puff”…

One thing is full-power, other is gather ki to the limits. And why still saying Goku would without a doubt kill Kid Buu with an attack gathered to the limit? Even Goku doubt about if it would work. It was Vegeta that was confident about it.

[Herms]

When Goku states that Kid Buu is the strongest/toughest opponent he has ever faced, is that not enough proof to conclude which incarnation of Buu is strongest?

Isn't this a dub line?

No, it's in the Japanese version too. Or at least Goku says a line like that in the Japanese version; maybe the dub added more lines where he says that too. At any rate, I'm pretty sure there are at least 3 instances in the Japanese anime of kid Boo being called the strongest Boo of all:

Before the fight begins, Kaioshin warns Goku and Vegeta that this form of Boo is stronger than any before. Goku says they'll think up a strategy or something.

After fighting with Boo for a bit, SSj3 Goku says that this Boo is superior to all the ones before in basically every way; he lists stuff like power, speed, and regenerative ability.

During one of the last episode recaps around the time Goku's making the Super Genki-Dama, the narrator refers to kid Boo as the strongest Boo, and says the Genki-Dama is the only remaining way to defeat him.

The main objection to all these lines though is that they are only in the anime, not the manga, and so many people would disregard them as being non-canon.

[Senzu_Bean]

In a way Kid Buu is actually the strongest Buu of all since Super Buu merged with Gohan, Gotenks, etc. isn't exactly a different Buu. Not exactly accurate but it can go this way.

[Savage68]

One thing is full-power, other is gather ki to the limits.

That's the point. He wasn't using his maximum SSJ3 power when the match started. The form was unwieldy, and he (apparently) needed time to take himself all the way to his limit. You can use a Kamehameha all you want, but if you're not at full-power, it won't be at full-power. An example similar to this is when Cell was forced to use his 'maximum' speed against Gohan, even though he obviously couldn't employ his true max speed while still suppressed. The same line of reasoning is applicable here. One way or another, Goku's ki wasn't operating at full capacity. Because if it was, the fight would've been over real quickly.

[Senzu_Bean]

He wasn't using his maximum SSJ3 power when the match started. One way or another, Goku's ki wasn't operating at full capacity. Because if it was, the fight would've been over real quickly.

No! Are you suggesting Piccolo or Goku weren't fighting Raditz at full-power?