What if 4Kids got DB?

[Blade]

You know, there seems to be an interesting commonality where those who are most vocal in their dislike for the Funimation dub tend to be the older fans, whose first experience of Dragonball in English was the original Ocean Cast with Ian James Corlett as Goku.

I can't accept and wont value the objectivity of people's opinion who sit on their high horses and say that fans of the Funimation dub must be totally blinded by nostalgia in order to look favorably upon something which is objectively bad, whilst all while praising the Levy replacement score, overlooking some incredibly lurid edits (The Next Dimension? HFIL?) and marauding around like Ian James Corlett is the perfect Western embodiment of Masako Nozawa's Goku.

The 'Rock The Dragon' era of fans are equally as smitten by nostalgia as the fans of the in-house Fort Worth dub, and there's undoubtedly still an underlying resentment over how the voices and background music on their favorite TV show changed when they were younger. It's a natural thing - humans are creatures of habit. We don't like change, when we find ourselves in a situation of comfort we don't like it when someone comes in and changes the scenery around us, giving us no option or say in the matter. But hell, some people should at least have the decency to recognise that their opinions are being coloured by their own personal dub 'indoctrination' history before they go on the war path and slate others for theirs.

[penguintruth]

Don't get me wrong. The Ocean years weren't good. The Ocean years were terrible, for the most part. But the Ocean years can be forgiven a little easier because they were just starting. Funimation had a chance to get even better voice actors and do a much better job handling the accuracy of the script when they started doing things in house. But they didn't. In 1999, when English dubs were starting to get good, DBZ's dub was no longer acceptable. And with the internet fandom getting bigger, DBZ fans were starting to awaken to the fact that Funimation had been screwing them.

Years later, Funimation went back and redubbed the Ocean-dubbed episodes and STILL got a lot of it wrong, FFS!

The first three DBZ movies were uncut during the Ocean years and had much more accurate dubs. The movies kept the original Kikuchi score. The movies had some pretty good voice acting. Peter Kelamis, Scott McNeil, Saffron Henderson, and Lalainia Lindbjerg were better than Sean Schemmel, Chris Sabat, Stephanie Nadolny, and Tiffany Vollmer.

But yeah, overall, a pretty crappy English dub when you step back and look at it all. Terrible scripts, the cuts, the awful performances by a lot of the "talents". It's easy to look back and, as I said, forgive some of that, but make no mistake, it was generally just as bad.

Hell, the in house Funimation cast got better over time. Sean Schemmel improved. Peter Kelamis, on the other hand? I don't know WHAT went on with those later TV-only dub years. Then Kirby Morrow's Goku. Talk about terrible casting. Yikes. You can say they were hurried, had poor direction, or whatever, but come on. Some of that is just embarrassing. The only folks who made it out of that Westwood/Ocean debacle looking good were Scott McNeil, Brad Swaile, and Cathy Weseluck. Maybe Ted Cole.

[Valerius Dover]

On the subject of the Trunks scene, I should point out that if 4Kids did it, that scene wouldn't exist.

[Blade]

Don't get me wrong. The Ocean years weren't good. The Ocean years were terrible, for the most part. But the Ocean years can be forgiven a little easier because they were just starting.

I wasn't really referring to you, but more the general herd mentality of older fans that crops up whereby if condition 'A' is that the Funimation dub sucked, then the resulting conclusions by way of unshakable logic are that the original Ocean Dub was good, Levy wrote a top-notch score and Corlett is the only English Goku.

Funimation had a chance to get even better voice actors and do a much better job handling the accuracy of the script when they started doing things in house. But they didn't. In 1999, when English dubs were starting to get good, DBZ's dub was no longer acceptable. And with the internet fandom getting bigger, DBZ fans were starting to awaken to the fact that Funimation had been screwing them.

I dunno, I get the distinct impression that Funimation produced the dub that they could afford at the time against the clock, with the aim of getting the stuff out as fast as possible as to not 'miss the boat' as so to speak. The failings in quality, however, perhaps came more from the inexperience of the people handling the jobs that were previously done by the industry-honed guys at Saban or up in Canada at Ocean Studios.

I mean, there's nothing at all to say that they couldn't have produced a much better dub initially for the money they had with more experienced or capable people behind the scenes, but by choosing to do everything in-house and relying on unknown, local talent and opting to mimic the performances of the Ocean cast as opposed to replace them, it's fairly easy to see why the early episodes turned out the way they did. As time went on, the improvements in the quality of the dub were just as much about the people involved learning to actually have a clue what they were doing as much as more money being available in lieu of the show's runaway success.

Hell, the in house Funimation cast got better over time. Sean Schemmel improved. Peter Kelamis, on the other hand? I don't know WHAT went on with those later TV-only dub years. Then Kirby Morrow's Goku. Talk about terrible casting. Yikes.

You can say they were hurried, had poor direction, or whatever, but come on. Some of that is just embarrassing.

Well yeah, I think 'hurried' and 'poor direction' are pretty humongous understatements. It was all one-take stuff with zero, or next to no direction from a revolving door directorial position that was occupied from session to session by whoever was in the studio that day. Furthermore, the cadre of talent actually providing voice work was incredibly small. Scott McNeil and Terry Klassen were practically forced to provide off-the-cuff voices for most of the minor or incidental characters on the day of taping.

It was a total 'shovel it out of the door' production. It wasn't until the very last stretch of episodes when time restrictions were relaxed and the quality control increased so that the end product became passable.

And, the sonorous qualities of his voice aside and their suitability to the character aside, there's really nothing wrong with Morrow's performances in the latter episodes once you see what he can do in acceptable working conditions, and furthermore, I maintain that even at his shakiest, Morrow still turned in better work that Kelamis during his Westwood tenure. It's worth keeping in mind that Morrow was basically hired to impersonate or hark more closely to Schemmel, and that with Kelamis that either he was entirely reliant on a generous quality control process to turn in a good result, or his heart simply wasn't in it anymore.

[Valerius Dover]

4Kids would've had a really bad score for this series if they had done it. Imagine this with the type of music in the Sonic X dub.
And it would have voice actors almost as good as .

[GarrettCRW]

At least only your hardcore fan side is insulted with the Z Dub, meanwhile 4Kids censoring insults EVERYONE, including kids (oh the irony). Every time 4Kids grabs a show, it becomes something out of Looney Tunes.

Can we stop with this, "American cartoons are all watered down, mindless crap," analysis? Because it leads to frankly moronic statements like the above. Looney Tunes (and Merrie Melodies, and pretty much every other big-studio cartoon from the birth of cinema through the end of the theatrical era) were absolutely not conceived as children's fare-they were made for general audiences. This is why so many of the cartoons are censored for violence and filled with cultural references that require a serious knowledge of older films to "get". And, come to think of it, can we stop saying that cartoons actually aimed at kids are always stupid, especially if they first aired before DuckTales premiered?

[Flame Dragon]

At least only your hardcore fan side is insulted with the Z Dub, meanwhile 4Kids censoring insults EVERYONE, including kids (oh the irony). Every time 4Kids grabs a show, it becomes something out of Looney Tunes.

Can we stop with this, "American cartoons are all watered down, mindless crap," analysis? Because it leads to frankly moronic statements like the above. Looney Tunes (and Merrie Melodies, and pretty much every other big-studio cartoon from the birth of cinema through the end of the theatrical era) were absolutely not conceived as children's fare-they were made for general audiences. This is why so many of the cartoons are censored for violence and filled with cultural references that require a serious knowledge of older films to "get". And, come to think of it, can we stop saying that cartoons actually aimed at kids are always stupid, especially if they first aired before DuckTales premiered?

Hey, i love Ducktales and Looney Tunes. The thing is, if a society wants to do kiddy stuff, they should stick with kiddy stuff.
Looney Tunes has got plenty of stuff for adults, but i put it in there for comparison because it's generally viewed as Child-friendly.
Characters get beaten up, shot, bombed or fall off (Wily E.Coyote made that scene classic) and they show no blood, no deaths, and no permanent body damage.

Companies shouldn't take violent stuff and try to turn it into a kid's show... because then the entire point of the show is lost, and all that remains is an hollow shell.
I'm glad that we didn't get Bleach here, at least it's safe from this bullshit.

[UltimateHammerBro]

4Kids would've had a really bad score for this series if they had done it. Imagine this with the type of music in the Sonic X dub.
And it would have voice actors almost as good as .

Remember how in the Sonic X dub there were a few notes which acted as Sonic's leitmotif, and they sounded WHENEVER he appeared on screen, even if it was for two seconds?
Now imagine that in Dragon Ball Z, with the music changing back and forth during a stare scene

[Valerius Dover]

4Kids would've had a really bad score for this series if they had done it. Imagine this with the type of music in the Sonic X dub.
And it would have voice actors almost as good as .

Remember how in the Sonic X dub there were a few notes which acted as Sonic's leitmotif, and they sounded WHENEVER he appeared on screen, even if it was for two seconds?
Now imagine that in Dragon Ball Z, with the music changing back and forth during a stare scene

That's exactly what I mean. Even the Funimation dub of Dragon Ball Z, with its heavy use of leitmotifs, didn't play the character themes EVERY SINGLE SECOND THEY SPOKE. Plus, they were actual songs, not jingles less than 7 notes. Japanese Sonic X also had leitmotifs (including one used for almost all Eggman appearances), but in a similar situation here, they weren't ALWAYS used, and they were full tracks. Kirby: Right Back at Ya! had this issue as well, but to a lesser degree. The only tune that annoyed me there was that off key violin whenever Tokkori (the cranky bird) spoke.
So, basically, I didn't hate the 4Kids score for Sonic X because it replaced the original that I later came to adore. It's really bad on its own. I can't really say the same for any other dub replacement scores.

[NintendoBlaze53]

Japanese Sonic X also had leitmotifs (including one used for almost all Eggman appearances),
So, basically, I didn't hate the 4Kids score for Sonic X because it replaced the original that I later came to adore. It's really bad on its own. I can't really say the same for any other dub replacement scores.

Wait Eggman, was it this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxeSNmd55Yc (Please tell me I'm not the only one that thought that).
Also the replacement was okay, except for episode 38 where they replace Live & Learn a English song owned by SEGA and the most famous Sonic song with a random instrumental piece. Both scores are mostly bad though, seriously you have the anime of the game that despite the gameplay quality will always have some of the greatest music quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYyzemEowc
Also NO Meaning of Truth in the F-Zero anime finale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa5OkdP3-r8
(Galactic Falcon Punch as Captain Falcon's Final Smash in Smash 4)

[Valerius Dover]

Japanese Sonic X also had leitmotifs (including one used for almost all Eggman appearances),
So, basically, I didn't hate the 4Kids score for Sonic X because it replaced the original that I later came to adore. It's really bad on its own. I can't really say the same for any other dub replacement scores.

Wait Eggman, was it this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxeSNmd55Yc (Please tell me I'm not the only one that thought that).
Also the replacement was okay, except for episode 38 where they replace Live & Learn a English song owned by SEGA and the most famous Sonic song with a random instrumental piece. Both scores are mostly bad though, seriously you have the anime of the game that despite the gameplay quality will always have some of the greatest music quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwYyzemEowc
Also NO Meaning of Truth in the F-Zero anime finale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa5OkdP3-r8
(Galactic Falcon Punch as Captain Falcon's Final Smash in Smash 4)

No, that was his theme from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog. It wasn't carried over to any other media. The only things I liked about the replacement were the first episode (seriously, it's like a different person did it or something) and that one song Vector played on the piano. Eggman's dub theme wasn't bad either, but the way the 4Kids score was utilized was constantly back and forth.
Haven't seen the F-Zero anime, but I believe the 4Kids dub was canceled after 15 episodes. The whole back and forth thing bothers me the most. The Faulconer score for DBZ didn't do that. Also, I think Mark Menza stated in an interview that this is exactly what he was trying to avoid when he scored the Movies and GT.

[GarrettCRW]

It's neat when Japanese voice actors can speak English, but let's learn from ADV's mistakes and not cast them as their roles in English dubs, too. Just look at Mari Iijima's performance as Lynn Minmay in the Macross dub.

I thought that the lesson of that dub was less of an issue about the performances and more of one where indulging in the fanwanky desires to see a "proper" Macross dub at this point is just plain sad and subjects everyone involved to unfair comparisons to more recognizable (and, in a number of cases, flat-out better) voice actors, but that's just me.

[The Monkey King]

'We don't want to pollute kids brains with those nonsense kung-fu letters'
-4Kids

[UltimateHammerBro]

'We don't want to pollute kids brains with those nonsense kung-fu letters'
-4Kids

I think I have to correct you. The proper quote would be:

'We don't want to pollute kids brains with letters'
-4Kids

That's exactly what I mean. Even the Funimation dub of Dragon Ball Z, with its heavy use of leitmotifs, didn't play the character themes EVERY SINGLE SECOND THEY SPOKE. Plus, they were actual songs, not jingles less than 7 notes.

Well, Funi did that sometimes. Not always, but sometimes. I remember a Funi-bashing video someone made. It was waaaaaaay too radical, but it had a point: it showed a scene with Cell in an action scene (with his theme as action music), then it had a three or four second cut to Mr. Satan horrified, and the music went all goofy. Back to Cell, back to action music.

[Valerius Dover]

Well, Funi did that sometimes. Not always, but sometimes. I remember a Funi-bashing video someone made. It was waaaaaaay too radical, but it had a point: it showed a scene with Cell in an action scene (with his theme as action music), then it had a three or four second cut to Mr. Satan horrified, and the music went all goofy. Back to Cell, back to action music.

Oh, yeah, I do remember that happening a few times in the dub. Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation is a perfect example of an epic moment ruined by the cut to Mr. Satan. For the most part, it flowed naturally, however. Especially in the Buu arc. Anything from 4Kids can't seem to stick to a single track for more than 10 seconds because they think all kids have severe ADHD.

Also, I don't understand the purpose of replacing music in the first place. I can understand replacing theme songs, but what's wrong with the instrumental bgm? I remember somebody talking about the first Pokemon movie saying their new music would be something that American kids would better "respond to". I'll say it again. KIDS DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT MUSIC. Most of those kids won't even notice it. To clarify, I don't hate American scores (well, the Sonic X I dislike, at least) infact I actually really like some of them. I just don't like the attitude that goes into making them in the first place.

[Flame Dragon]

Well, Funi did that sometimes. Not always, but sometimes. I remember a Funi-bashing video someone made. It was waaaaaaay too radical, but it had a point: it showed a scene with Cell in an action scene (with his theme as action music), then it had a three or four second cut to Mr. Satan horrified, and the music went all goofy. Back to Cell, back to action music.

Oh, yeah, I do remember that happening a few times in the dub. Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation is a perfect example of an epic moment ruined by the cut to Mr. Satan. For the most part, it flowed naturally, however. Especially in the Buu arc. Anything from 4Kids can't seem to stick to a single track for more than 10 seconds because they think all kids have severe ADHD.

Also, I don't understand the purpose of replacing music in the first place. I can understand replacing theme songs, but what's wrong with the instrumental bgm? I remember somebody talking about the first Pokemon movie saying their new music would be something that American kids would better "respond to". I'll say it again. KIDS DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT MUSIC. Most of those kids won't even notice it. To clarify, I don't hate American scores (well, the Sonic X I dislike, at least) infact I
actually really like some of them. I just don't like the attitude that goes into making them in the first place.

Well, i enjoyed Kikuchi score a lot as a kid, so great music is a really neat bonus, to say the least.
The 4Kids scores i can't even consider them music... they just sound like "random noise" or "random kiddy motif" most of the time, with no rhyme or reason to them. They are horrible.

[Valerius Dover]

Well, I did say most kids. Kids like me would notice it, but the target crowd of people just "tuning in" won't care. And even if they didn't like the music for whatever reason, would they seriously be all like "THIS SHOW'S AWESOME! But the music is kind of weird, so I'm not going to watch it....."

I think DBZ Kai airing with Kikuchi music now proves that Faulconer Productions and the others really weren't needed. (Not that I'm complaining, the work they did is awesome. Can't say the same for some other shows that don't have this music-switching luxury, though.)

[gohann]

The censoring wouldn't be much worse than what we used to get (4Kids was no worse than most other dub companies at the time), and the voice cast would actually be good depending on how it's directed (Rachael Lillis as Bulma? Tara Jayne as Kid Gohan/Goku? Yes!).

[thomas1up]

The censoring wouldn't be much worse than what we used to get (4Kids was no worse than most other dub companies at the time), and the voice cast would actually be good depending on how it's directed (Rachael Lillis as Bulma? Tara Jayne as Kid Gohan/Goku? Yes!).

The censoring wouldn't be much worse? Eh, you could say that but give Funimation where credit is due, they don't do nearly as much Americanizing as 4kids do, they did change some names but never to anything totally different from the Japanese Version (Kuririn ---> Krillin, Tenshinhan ---> Tien Shinhan, Kaio-Sama ---> King Kai ect.) the worst one was Mr. Satan being called Hercule, but that's kind of understandable considering how a character literally called Satan could call controversy.

If dubbed by 4kids I'd expect Goku to have a surfer dude accent and be called something less non-American like Carl.

Plus at least Funimation gives the option to buy the series uncut with the Original Japanese as an option, for example with Yu-Gi-Oh DM, you can only buy the first 9 episodes legally in Japanese with Subs, want the rest of the series? Import them from Japan with no subs! The only option left is to buy the god-awful Hong Kong bootlegs.

[Valerius Dover]

^Yes, uncut is a big factor. Funimation gives people the option to ignore their dub entirely. With a few short lived exceptions, 4Kids has never done any such thing. As for name changes, this seems to be a hit or miss. I should point out that literally every name in Sonic X was kept the same, even the anime-exclusive ones.