Can our next arc villian be a woman?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I always find the biology excuse absurd. It has little to do with strength in Dragon Ball. From Toriyama's very own lips/pen in the Super Exciting Guide, your body's muscles can only take you so far before you need to start focusing on ki to reach new heights.

So, even ignoring that an alien or god doesn't have to be constructed the same way as Saiyans physically, all it would take is a female with more ki than Goku and Vegeta, and I would have absolutely zero problem buying them getting their asses kicked in a match of fisticuffs.

[Shin]

I don't want to sound like an ass but it would be VERY difficult to believe a top female fighter to be physically stronger than Goku/Vegeta. Its not sexism its just how biology generally works in humans and how its generally depicted in humanoids.


Now I'd believe a female villain pulling the strings but thats not the type of series DB is or has been.

Vados tho.

I always find the biology excuse absurd. It has little to do with strength in Dragon Ball. From Toriyama's very own lips/pen in the Super Exciting Guide, your body's muscles can only take you so far before you need to start focusing on ki to reach new heights.

So, even ignoring that an alien or god doesn't have to be constructed the same way as Saiyans physically, all it would take is a female with more ki than Goku and Vegeta, and I would have absolutely zero problem buying them getting their asses kicked in a match of fisticuffs.

It is absurd because it's a lazy way to dismiss a very fresh idea. An idea that can be executed VERY brilliantly too. The only thing I would dread is fan reaction and if this thread is something to go by, it would be a total mess.

[GodKaio-Ken]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

[Boo Machine]

I don't want to sound like an ass but it would be VERY difficult to believe a top female fighter to be physically stronger than Goku/Vegeta. Its not sexism its just how biology generally works in humans and how its generally depicted in humanoids.


Now I'd believe a female villain pulling the strings but thats not the type of series DB is or has been.

Vados tho.

I always find the biology excuse absurd. It has little to do with strength in Dragon Ball. From Toriyama's very own lips/pen in the Super Exciting Guide, your body's muscles can only take you so far before you need to start focusing on ki to reach new heights.

So, even ignoring that an alien or god doesn't have to be constructed the same way as Saiyans physically, all it would take is a female with more ki than Goku and Vegeta, and I would have absolutely zero problem buying them getting their asses kicked in a match of fisticuffs.

It is absurd because it's a lazy way to dismiss a very fresh idea. An idea that can be executed VERY brilliantly too. The only thing I would dread is fan reaction and if this thread is something to go by, it would be a total mess.

How was the fan reaction to #18 when she came out? I actually don't know. She may have only had, like, 2 fights, but she was a power house for a while.

[Boo Machine]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

Why would including a female character be just for PC? Not attacking, just curious. Why couldn't they just include one just because they want to? Is inclusion just a PC only thing?

[Shin]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

Vados is a good example is she not? Wasn't it also stated she's stronger than her brother? I can't remember.

It is absurd because it's a lazy way to dismiss a very fresh idea. An idea that can be executed VERY brilliantly too. The only thing I would dread is fan reaction and if this thread is something to go by, it would be a total mess.

How was the fan reaction to #18 when she came out? I actually don't know. She may have only had, like, 2 fights, but she was a power house for a while.

I honestly don't have any recollection of fan reception to C-18 so I can't really say.

[Viewtiful Jess]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

What the hell are you talking about? Biology doesn't make men the strongest by any means, have you seen some of the women the world had in boxing, the olypics, mma, body building, etc? And if your going by DB rules;

#18, a cyborg with no interest in fighting at all broke Vegeta's arm like a twig. She was stronger than him. Beat his ass at his peak form, and only walked away with a few scuffs. So ???

[omaro34]

I always find the biology excuse absurd. It has little to do with strength in Dragon Ball. From Toriyama's very own lips/pen in the Super Exciting Guide, your body's muscles can only take you so far before you need to start focusing on ki to reach new heights.

So, even ignoring that an alien or god doesn't have to be constructed the same way as Saiyans physically, all it would take is a female with more ki than Goku and Vegeta, and I would have absolutely zero problem buying them getting their asses kicked in a match of fisticuffs.

Neither would I, and I completely agree with you. However, a good portion of the fanbase is into masculine, large villains. Take Broly for example; he has no real character development, his motives behind wanting to kill Goku were pretty ridiculous, he lacks intelligence, yet he is loved by so many. I think a lot of that has to do with his physical appearance. Unfortunately it is the fanbase's general perception as to what "badass" should look like. Perhaps this thought process has changed over the years, but it certainly was that way when the Broly or Bojack movies were released.

[sailorspazz]

I'd think the simple idea of a female villain would be something most people could get on board with, but Jesus, the reactions in this thread...lots of overblown statements about the "feminist agenda" being "forced down our throats" with this sort of "PC, forced representation" (reminds me very much of the LGBT thread we had a while back). Like, why is that the first thought people are having? Is it really so impossible to imagine a fictional character who happens to be a woman being the main threat for our heroes? Admittedly, it seems like a foreign concept in the world of battle shounen...I'm no expert on every big shounen series ever, but I'm not sure if it's been done before (high-ranking officers in evil organizations have been women, sure, but the actual Big Boss?). But just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.

I guess the people who are worried about the "feminist agenda" are imagining the creators will be told they have to create a female villain, and so they'll halfheartedly come up with something just to meet that requirement. That's not what anyone wants. Those of us on board with the idea of a female antagonist would want her to be a well-defined character first, without it having it be all about her gender. Viewers should feel, "wow, what an interesting personality/backstory/motivation she has," not, "oh look, a female villain...how novel". Some have said it's something Toriyama wouldn't think of, but he's also a guy who likes taking unexpected swerves, so who knows what he'll come up with? The trend of females being reduced to bland housewives in this series is disheartening, so it would be quite a twist to have a lady being the Big Boss.

And I'd hope that in a battle of superhuman beings, they wouldn't pull their punches because, "oh, I can't hit a girl!"...that sort of sexist bullshit would be super annoying, because the point of this hypothetical character is to have someone who's treated the same as any other villain, without gender being an issue. But I think Gokuu and Vegeta are both perfectly fine with beating up anyone who gets in their way!

Though with all this talk about a villain, I think it'd be more likely that if Super ever has a big time skip, we could see Pan deciding she wants to be a fighter like her grandpa. If they make her less irritating than her GT counterpart, I'd like to see that in the future

[ChronoTwigger]

Well, I'm most confident about a female heroine than a female villain.

If my memory serve me well, there are very few female villains in TV anime shows. One I remember well was Himika Queen from Kotetsu Jeeg.
I also remember Polaris Ilda from Saint Seiya Norse Saga.
Both are not defeated "phisically" by the main character (both are treated by a greater villain).

Anyway, what I think will prevent a female villain to take the stage, is again the fact that Goku have to bash her in order to win. That's a dogma in the franchise.
While seems perfectly "morale" that a woman bash a man, there's the moral issue of showing a man hurting a woman.

Now, we all know that is anime, is fantasy, is a show and whatever. But wanna risk to have all damned kid educators on Earth turn on Dragon Ball... once again?

(And NO, Goku always restrain on beating a girl, this is a trait well depicted a couple of time... Vegeta is another story XD).

[Mazingerdestro]

Ehhhhh no......That would be a terrible idea.....a show that struggles with blood would have female abuse....yeah have goku punching a girl!!! That would be fun. Have kids learning that hurting girls is mondo cool....lol

Has fighting in manga between a man and a woman ever been considered abuse?

While I'm all for "muh diversity" in this series, I cannot help but feel like the second somebody does make a female villain the world will call it Misogynist (By the people who dont even watch the series or remotely care otherwise, mind you). You're walking on eggshells with the concept.

ALSO if you make a female main villain do NOT make her to appeal to feminists or try to make some "LOOK KIDS THIS HERE IS A FEMINIST ICON, PLEASE IDENTIFY WITH HER" - that's how we get shitty characters. Make her a GOOD CHARACTER!

The show is already called misogynistic for the total sausage fest it is and how takes strong female characters and demotes the to the small of being "the mom (TM)" by both viewer and non-viewers. I don't think Japan or Akira Toriyama are the posterpeople for feminism. What is with this whole no feminism thing? I don't get it. You can have both in a character. I don't think Dragon Ball is quite there yet but if they could they can and it's not a bad thing.

I just want a good villian, as I see others do too. A good villian who is powerfu, and a woman or woman-like. Effeminate men do not count, they are still men unless stated otherwise.

Misogynistic? Dragonball? A show intended for 10 year old boys? Why?
Excluding the fact that this is the first time someone mentions that and the fact that Bulma is loved by the fans and the fact that this is a show intended for kids who have no interest in these stuff or girls in general and want to see cool fights and the fact that in general having women punching with men and suffering heavy damage wouĺd be immoral and the fact that no show that respect it's audience will have men harming women......have you ever saw a db style fight with a man fighting a woman? I have seen many women abusing men in anime for comedy but never a man punching a woman to the point she bleeds.....that would send so many wrong messages to young kids.....Who the actual fuck would ever wish for that?
Yeah what's next? I know Luffy punching nami to death!!!! Jesus......what's wrong with some people.....female in dbs are treated as smart, kind, and funny people and some wish to see them getting brutally punched.......

I consider Videl's brutal beating as a strong moment that Toriyama should avoid to make and now I see people seeking for more? Why? .

[Chuquita]

Last year's Precure's big bad was female (Dyspear. The midboss was also female - Twilight), but Precure's also mostly heroines and aimed at a female audience.
It's still Toei though, so.

[HeroR]

You have no proof that Toriyama have been taking from fanfics other than broad, popular ideas like Trunks returning, a rouge Kai, colors on the new Super Saiyan form.

What part of "As far as I know/I've heard out there/I've seen" you don't get it?

And obviously he isn't searching for fanfics to create his story, but obviously none of this is new. Super Saiyan with blue hair exist for decades now.

Most of the ideas in Dragon Ball aren't new. Dragon Ball was originally a Journey to the West parody and the first tourument arc came from Dr. Slump.

And having a blue Super Saiyan form means nothing unless it was supposed to be connected to gods.

We don't need video game material in Super, and given how this arc is going, I highly doubt we'll see Time Breaker stuff.

[Shin]

Ehhhhh no......That would be a terrible idea.....a show that struggles with blood would have female abuse....yeah have goku punching a girl!!! That would be fun. Have kids learning that hurting girls is mondo cool....lol

Has fighting in manga between a man and a woman ever been considered abuse?

While I'm all for "muh diversity" in this series, I cannot help but feel like the second somebody does make a female villain the world will call it Misogynist (By the people who dont even watch the series or remotely care otherwise, mind you). You're walking on eggshells with the concept.

ALSO if you make a female main villain do NOT make her to appeal to feminists or try to make some "LOOK KIDS THIS HERE IS A FEMINIST ICON, PLEASE IDENTIFY WITH HER" - that's how we get shitty characters. Make her a GOOD CHARACTER!

The show is already called misogynistic for the total sausage fest it is and how takes strong female characters and demotes the to the small of being "the mom (TM)" by both viewer and non-viewers. I don't think Japan or Akira Toriyama are the posterpeople for feminism. What is with this whole no feminism thing? I don't get it. You can have both in a character. I don't think Dragon Ball is quite there yet but if they could they can and it's not a bad thing.

I just want a good villian, as I see others do too. A good villian who is powerfu, and a woman or woman-like. Effeminate men do not count, they are still men unless stated otherwise.

Misogynistic? Dragonball? A show intended for 10 year old boys? Why?
Excluding the fact that this is the first time someone mentions that and the fact that Bulma is loved by the fans and the fact that this is a show intended for kids who have no interest in these stuff or girls in general and want to see cool fights and the fact that in general having women punching with men and suffering heavy damage wouĺd be immoral and the fact that no show that respect it's audience will have men harming women......have you ever saw a db style fight with a man fighting a woman? I have seen many women abusing men in anime for comedy but never a man punching a woman to the point she bleeds.....that would send so many wrong messages to young kids.....Who the actual fuck would ever wish for that?
Yeah what's next? I know Luffy punching nami to death!!!! Jesus......what's wrong with some people.....female in dbs are treated as smart, kind, and funny people and some wish to see them getting brutally punched.......

I consider Videl's brutal beating as a strong moment that Toriyama should avoid to make and now I see people seeking for more? Why? .

Uh.. No one here is saying or implying we want to see a man brutally beat a woman.

We want to see a formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, offer a challenge to the protagonists for a change. To hold female characters to a standard where they should be viewed only as kind, gentle, and soft robs them of their humanity. Women fight. Women can hold their own. It's not difficult to see that.

Bringing up "sending the wrong message to children" excuse doesn't really make sense when the show is about fighting anyway lol. If we're really being too caring about children, they shouldn't even be watching a show with such violence to begin with. In fact, there's plenty of japanese media where the protagonist(s) are female leads who kick serious ass. (Mezzo Forte, Ghost In The Shell, Claymore) Yeah, they still get beat up time to time, but they hold their own. What's wrong with that?

[Grimlock]

We don't need video game material in Super.

Maybe. Unless Toriyama decides to bring back another villain, make him stronger in a randomly way and kill him in the same movie/saga, adding nothing to the plot. If that is to happen again, then we will urgently need Dragon Ball Online stuff in Dragon Ball Super.

[ChronoTwigger]

Uh.. No one here is saying or implying we want to see a man brutally beat a woman.

We want to see a formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, offer a challenge to the protagonists for a change. To hold female characters to a standard where they should be viewed only as kind, gentle, and soft robs them of their humanity. Women fight. Women can hold their own. It's not difficult to see that.

Bringing up "sending the wrong message to children" excuse doesn't really make sense when the show is about fighting anyway lol. If we're really being too caring about children, they shouldn't even be watching a show with such violence to begin with. In fact, there's plenty of japanese media where the protagonist(s) are female leads who kick serious ass. (Mezzo Forte, Ghost In The Shell, Claymore) Yeah, they still get beat up time to time, but they hold their own. What's wrong with that?

What you lack in this logical argument is the fact that, in the end, the formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, get bashed hard by GOKU.
So far Goku minced aliens, artifacts, robots... but couldn't pass the concept "Goku, our hero, could easily bash a girl to death if needed".
Goku will become the one that killed a girl.
Even if the girl is an evil alien that treat our (fictional) galaxy.
Having Goku kill a girl put him in a morale field the character WASN'T scripted for. So, why not a kid villain? And why not torture some evil one?

As for the series you quoted, they're about female leads, and if someone harm them is naturally the evil one.

And why punching a girl is immoral?
'Cause, in 99.999999% of cases, girls do their daily jobs and doesn't train in martial arts or do heavy lifting or any kind of strenght boost. They have 0 combat level. That's doesn't mean to disqualify girls, but let's face reality: girls in 99.99999% of cases, must be protected by the 0.000001% of strong evil ones that want to harm them.
There are bad guys out here.
Every day we read bad stories about girls being harmed by human worms.
Goku punching a girl will kill any hope I have that one day girls will not be bashed by ANYONE, not even a fictional hero.

...while strong girls can fight along with him against evil ones at the same level (and that's the difference to note).

[Shin]

Uh.. No one here is saying or implying we want to see a man brutally beat a woman.

We want to see a formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, offer a challenge to the protagonists for a change. To hold female characters to a standard where they should be viewed only as kind, gentle, and soft robs them of their humanity. Women fight. Women can hold their own. It's not difficult to see that.

Bringing up "sending the wrong message to children" excuse doesn't really make sense when the show is about fighting anyway lol. If we're really being too caring about children, they shouldn't even be watching a show with such violence to begin with. In fact, there's plenty of japanese media where the protagonist(s) are female leads who kick serious ass. (Mezzo Forte, Ghost In The Shell, Claymore) Yeah, they still get beat up time to time, but they hold their own. What's wrong with that?

What you lack in this logical argument is the fact that, in the end, the formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, get bashed hard by GOKU.
So far Goku minced aliens, artifacts, robots... but couldn't pass the concept "Goku, our hero, could easily bash a girl to death if needed".
Goku will become the one that killed a girl.
Even if the girl is an evil alien that treat our (fictional) galaxy.
Having Goku kill a girl put him in a morale field the character WASN'T scripted for. So, why not a kid villain? And why not torture some evil one?

As for the series you quoted, they're about female leads, and if someone harm them is naturally the evil one.

Wait, who said Gokuu would be the one to defeat her? It could also be Pan since she's being set up to be quite strong already. (Gokuu has already killed a kid, which was Pure Boo.)

If the scenario is set up where this new fem villain just blew up Earth, destroyed Gokuu and Vegeta's families, typical cynical behavior etc., do you honestly believe that Gokuu and co. are gonna hold back from defeating her just because the antagonist is a woman? That's silly writing and perpetuating the idea that women can't be put in these type of roles. The series' that I listed was to show that media can showcase women being in a fight, regardless of what "side" they are on. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't promote some sort of domestic abuse agenda. It can be done.

And why punching a girl is immoral?
'Cause, in 99.999999% of cases, girls do their daily jobs and doesn't train in martial arts or do heavy lifting or any kind of strenght boost. They have 0 combat level. That's doesn't mean to disqualify girls, but let's face reality: girls in 99.99999% of cases, must be protected by the 0.000001% of strong evil ones that want to harm them.

This isn't correct. Like... at all.

We also seem to forget about Zangya, who was a female villain (not lead) that fought. There wasn't a problem there!

[ArchedThunder]

What you lack in this logical argument is the fact that, in the end, the formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, get bashed hard by GOKU.
So far Goku minced aliens, artifacts, robots... but couldn't pass the concept "Goku, our hero, could easily bash a girl to death if needed".
Goku will become the one that killed a girl.
Even if the girl is an evil alien that treat our (fictional) galaxy.
Having Goku kill a girl put him in a morale field the character WASN'T scripted for. So, why not a kid villain? And why not torture some evil one?

As for the series you quoted, they're about female leads, and if someone harm them is naturally the evil one.

nd why punching a girl is immoral?
'Cause, in 99.999999% of cases, girls do their daily jobs and doesn't train in martial arts or do heavy lifting or any kind of strenght boost. They have 0 combat level. That's doesn't mean to disqualify girls, but let's face reality: girls in 99.99999% of cases, must be protected by the 0.000001% of strong evil ones that want to harm them.
There are bad guys out here.
Every day we read bad stories about girls being harmed by human worms.
Goku punching a girl will kill any hope I have that one day girls will not be bashed by ANYONE, not even a fictional hero.

...while strong girls can fight along with him against evil ones at the same level (and that's the difference to note).

Get this misogynistic bullshit out of here. The idea that all women should be delicate wall flowers that should never come in harms way, even if they are an awful villain is disgusting. If she is stronger than Goku and evil, then that is nothing wrong with Goku fighting and killing her (and whose to say someone else wouldn't beat her, like kid Pan). Your misguided chivalry is a huge example of how deeply ingrained misogyny is in modern culture.
And what makes you think Goku has any moral problems with fighting a girl? If she's strong he wouldn't give a flying fuck, and if she's evil that would just give him extra reason to fight her.

[Kanassa]

The only thing I would dread is fan reaction and if this thread is something to go by, it would be a total mess.

Not really, this thread proves more that the only noticable outcry would be minor. There's only been a few 'extreme' posts in this thread, where as 70% have been "Yes, we need more woman!" and 20% "Gender shouldn't matter"

[MozillaVulpix]

If you really find that an issue, you could always have the villainess get redeemed. That's what happens in a lot of Shojo. And it happens to 18.

If Goku can spare Freeza three times, why wouldn't he spare her?