If Dragonball Z came back on TV would Bruce Faulconer Music come back?

[90sDBZ]

The US and Australia are much bigger markets than the UK, Ireland and Holland. As for Canada, they didn't get the Westwood dub until the Cell arc so the fanbase was already accustomed to the Faulconer score, not to mention it was readily available on the home releases for years.

The reason the Westwood dub score doesn't seem to be as well regarded is simply because it didn't get anywhere near as much exposure, nothing more. If Funimation hired Keenlyside and AB used the Faulconer score its entirely possible the reverse would have been the case and the former score would have received the praise from people who grew up on it.

The Levy/Wasserman score would be a better point of comparison because it was released on TV and VHS/DVD in all the same regions.

Perhaps, but even amongst the enthusiastic Ocean dub fans on Youtube the Keenlyside score only seems to get mentioned as an afterthought. There's even several videos that Ocean fans have made were they've put the Levy score over Westwood dub clips. From what I've seen online the reaction to the Westwood score has been lukewarm at best.

I always thought that the reason why the Westwood dub score wasn't as well regarded as the Faulconer score was because people found it to be too repetitive.

This has been a common complaint against it, and my biggest personal gripe with it. It got so much better in the Fusion saga when they finally introduced new tracks, but by then it was a case of too little too late.

[8000 Saiyan]

The US and Australia are much bigger markets than the UK, Ireland and Holland. As for Canada, they didn't get the Westwood dub until the Cell arc so the fanbase was already accustomed to the Faulconer score, not to mention it was readily available on the home releases for years.

The reason the Westwood dub score doesn't seem to be as well regarded is simply because it didn't get anywhere near as much exposure, nothing more. If Funimation hired Keenlyside and AB used the Faulconer score its entirely possible the reverse would have been the case and the former score would have received the praise from people who grew up on it.

The Levy/Wasserman score would be a better point of comparison because it was released on TV and VHS/DVD in all the same regions.

Perhaps, but even amongst the enthusiastic Ocean dub fans on Youtube the Keenlyside score only seems to get mentioned as an afterthought. There's even several videos that Ocean fans have made were they've put the Levy score over Westwood dub clips. From what I've seen online the reaction to the Westwood score has been lukewarm at best.

I always thought that the reason why the Westwood dub score wasn't as well regarded as the Faulconer score was because people found it to be too repetitive.

This has been a common complaint against it, and my biggest personal gripe with it. It got so much better in the Fusion saga when they finally introduced new tracks, but by then it was a case of too little too late.

Well, the problem was that it was a rushed for TV-dub. They may have had not enough time to introduce those tracks.

[Kokonoe]

I also made that point about the music, but the timeslot is a far bigger reason. If people weren't put off by the cheapness of the production and the awful acting in season 3 then the show is just about bulletproof. DBZ's global success regardless of tampering to story and dialog and music just goes to show that DBZ is successful regardless. Combat is a universal language.

Considering it "awful acting" is your opinion, "cheapness of production" is your opinion, being bothered by the dialogue changes is your opinion.

Considering that many of those same people who liked Faulconer's score also liked the season 3 voices, I don't put much stock in their opinion regarding taste.

Ah, another person acting high and mighty about their opinion, implying it's factual. On that same end, I think with this post, I won't put much stock into your opinion since you seem unable to respect people who might like things you do not. Hell, Final Flash scene from Cell Saga is WAYYYY better in the original compared to Kai's dub. Way more energy and emotion put into that scene and the music made it so much better.

[ABED]

The acting is objectively awful. That's not a matter of opinion. They were all inexperienced, didn't know their characters, the production was rushed, they had very few takes, and they were hired to imitate a previous cast. And it's not opinion that it was cheap. That's verifiable. I'm sure some audiophiles on here could tell you that the production quality of season 3 was very cheap in cost and quality. You get what you pay for. The recording was moved from Vancouver and they hired anyone who auditioned who they thought sounded closest to the previous actors. They moved it to cut costs. Texas wasn't a hot bed for voice acting at that time. It is factually true that the season 3 cast was VERY green. The dialog is also objectively awful. It's not in character. It's a lot of random jokes and silly lines that don't fit the DB aesthetic. Despite what you've been told, art has objective criteria by which you can judge it. Pretty much any goodwill people have for that time is overwhelmingly due to nostalgia. If you don't respect my opinion, fine, I'm not losing sleep over it.

[DBZAOTA482]

Considering it "awful acting" is your opinion, "cheapness of production" is your opinion, being bothered by the dialogue changes is your opinion.

While "awful acting" may be opinion, the cheapness of production is definitely factual as it's proven fact FUNimation's In-House didn't have much funds put into it as they needed support from Saban to get by during the Ocean dub days and literally hired random people off the streets to do voice-acting. That's also the main reason FUNimation resorted to such practices in the first place.

[Kokonoe]

The acting is objectively awful. That's not a matter of opinion. They were all inexperienced, didn't know their characters, the production was rushed, they had very few takes, and they were hired to imitate a previous cast. And it's not opinion that it was cheap. That's verifiable. I'm sure some audiophiles on here could tell you that the production quality of season 3 was very cheap in cost and quality. You get what you pay for. The recording was moved from Vancouver and they hired anyone who auditioned who they thought sounded closest to the previous actors. They moved it to cut costs. Texas wasn't a hot bed for voice acting at that time. It is factually true that the season 3 cast was VERY green. The dialog is also objectively awful. It's not in character. It's a lot of random jokes and silly lines that don't fit the DB aesthetic. Despite what you've been told, art has objective criteria by which you can judge it. Pretty much any goodwill people have for that time is overwhelmingly due to nostalgia. If you don't respect my opinion, fine, I'm not losing sleep over it.

More "objectives" when you even saying its "awful" is still subjective. Okay, so it had a lower budget, so it's cheap in that regard maybe? But I never felt as if I was getting something "cheap" like say 4Kids One Piece dub.

And ah...the "nostalgia" argument. Nostalgia is not the reason people continue to enjoy something, all it means is a memory of a good time. That would be like saying people like the original Japanese dub mainly for nostalgia, which is incorrect. You can keep throwing around words like "objective" but it doesn't change that most of what you're saying is subjective.

[ABED]

More "objectives" when you even saying its "awful" is still subjective. Okay, so it had a lower budget, so it's cheap in that regard maybe? But I never felt as if I was getting something "cheap" like say 4Kids One Piece dub.

No, you were getting something cheaper. And it wasn't maybe cheap. It was cheap.

And ah...the "nostalgia" argument. Nostalgia is not the reason people continue to enjoy something, all it means is a memory of a good time.

And that memory is a powerful thing. People often still enjoy bad things because it brings up fond memories.

Most of what I wrote is not subjective. They did hire people off the street. The directors and actors were green and didn't know the story. The production was cheap and they did very few takes. They were hired to sound like other actors.

That would be like saying people like the original Japanese dub mainly for nostalgia, which is incorrect.

That can be the case but at least in Japan, their dub fits the DB aesthetic. It's not a contemporary show. It's roots are in Wuxia and Journey to the West. The dialog fits the characters. Freeza wouldn't say "You dirty crook, you stole your mother's pocket book." He's a gentlemanly space dictator.

[Kokonoe]

No, you were getting something cheaper. And it wasn't maybe cheap. It was cheap.

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

And that memory is a powerful thing. People often still enjoy bad things because it brings up fond memories.

So you're saying people are biased for their view just cause of their childhood? It's funny how you mentioned earlier in this thread that there isn't evidence that Faulconer's OST effected DBZ in a positive way, yet you're pulling out generalizations on what people might feel or think without evidence.

Most of what I wrote is not subjective. They did hire people off the street. The directors and actors were green and didn't know the story. The production was cheap and they did very few takes. They were hired to sound like other actors.

And yet, the voices themselves ended up being iconic despite all of these hindrances. I think that says more about them than anything.

That can be the case but at least in Japan, their dub fits the DB aesthetic. It's not a contemporary show. It's roots are in Wuxia and Journey to the West. The dialog fits the characters. Freeza wouldn't say "You dirty crook, you stole your mother's pocket book." He's a gentlemanly space dictator.

That doesn't matter either. Localization changes can actually be favored over the original dialogue from the manga as well. Using a double standard over "nostalgia" bias in this situation doesn't add up.

[Gaffer Tape]

More "objectives" when you even saying its "awful" is still subjective. Okay, so it had a lower budget, so it's cheap in that regard maybe? But I never felt as if I was getting something "cheap" like say 4Kids One Piece dub.

And ah...the "nostalgia" argument. Nostalgia is not the reason people continue to enjoy something, all it means is a memory of a good time. That would be like saying people like the original Japanese dub mainly for nostalgia, which is incorrect. You can keep throwing around words like "objective" but it doesn't change that most of what you're saying is subjective.

Look, I have nostalgia for season 3. I readily admit it. I was 13 when it came out, and after waiting a year, the hype to continue the story was real. But even at 13 I could immediately tell, past all the newly available blood, that the production quality had significantly dropped to a near-amateurish level. The actors were clearly less experienced and obviously imitating their predecessors, the dialogue was poorer, and, yes, I couldn't stand the music. And this was all before I had gotten into the Japanese version, so it's not as if I was biased against the dub. The dub was all I knew, and the only music I really enjoyed had been the music in movies 1 and 2, which I didn't know was the Japanese score. I watched it anyway, despite the fact that I hated the voices and hated the music, because I loved Dragon Ball. Of course, once I found the Japanese version, I jumped ship and never looked back.

That the production was cheaper is a fact. Does that necessarily make it better or worse? No. But it doesn't really help. The rest are opinions, but they're opinions even the people involved with the dub share. The actors have all gone on record to say their performances sucked and loved the chance to do Kai simply because it gave them a chance to redeem themselves for their past work now that they were experienced professional actors.

[ABED]

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

The original is in mono and recorded on older equipment, but their actors were experienced. It oddly fit the aesthetic.

So you're saying people are biased for their view just cause of their childhood? It's funny how you mentioned earlier in this thread that there isn't evidence that Faulconer's OST effected DBZ in a positive way, yet you're pulling out generalizations on what people might feel or think without evidence.

I didn't say the Faulconer score didn't affect DBZ in a positive way. That wasn't remotely my point. And I've been around the fandom long enough to make general statements like nostalgia being a big factor in how the season 3 dub was received.

And yet, the voices themselves ended up being iconic despite all of these hindrances.

Enough time passes and any voice actor in that spot will be "iconic". It just goes to show you the power of DB, not the quality of the actors. The show is popular everywhere regardless of the music or the actors. Put it on a good timeslot and a channel kids watch, and it is bound to find an audience as evidence by Kai's popularity. It will always find an audience.

That doesn't matter either. Localization changes can actually be favored over the original dialogue from the manga as well. Using a double standard over "nostalgia" bias in this situation doesn't add up.

This isn't a mere localization. They changed the characterizations of a few characters. I have ZERO idea what you are getting at with the last sentence. This is about keeping true to the original story which is what I liked to begin with. It's not nostalgia.

[Bansho64]

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

I wouldn't say the whole dub is "cheap", but it really gave me that feelin a lot whenever it did those really important scenes. For example, the ending of that one episode in the Buu arc where Goku and Main Vegeta's power up for their rematch. The dub really blasts this loud and, IMO, unfitting music and it really takes a lot away from the scene. It's a big and failed approach of "LOOK! THEY'RE FIGHTING! WATCH EM POWER UP! Isn't this sooooo cool!". And it ain't really workin for me.

However, The original goes for a more silent and suspenseful approach. I can really feel like something big and bad is about to go down, but it aint overdone. The scene has foreboding and almost fearful music to go with it, but it doesn't overshadow the dialogue between Goku and Vegeta. I can really hear the fierceness in how they speak. And, even though it's nothin all that rare, Oozaru sound effect only intensifies the scene.

I really do feel like there is a sort of cheapness there when you switch from the latter to the former. And that's only one of the many that, IMO, don't do it right.

[Bajosexto]

No, you were getting something cheaper. And it wasn't maybe cheap. It was cheap.

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

That's because Toei presumably threw away the audio masters(or whatever they're called) and was only left with the optical audio. Which doesn't sound very good. This is why the Japanese audio sounds muffled on every home release. If your talking about the voice acting, well that's really subjective. But the fact is that most of the FUNi cast of season 3 were very inexperienced while the Japanese Seiyuus were all experience VA's at the time. I'm not too familiar with the Japanese Seiyuus, but I do know a lot about the Latin American dub. And the "rookie"/"new guy", Lalo Garza krillin 's VA, had been voice acting professionally for 7 years. I imagine that it was a similar situation with the the Japanese cast. Where even the most "inexperienced" Seiyuus had been voice acting for some time and weren't just some random aspiring actors hired from the street.

[8000 Saiyan]

No, you were getting something cheaper. And it wasn't maybe cheap. It was cheap.

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

That's because Toei presumably threw away the audio masters(or whatever they're called) and was only left with the optical audio. Which doesn't sound very good. This is why the Japanese audio sounds muffled on every home release. If your talking about the voice acting, well that's really subjective. But the fact is that most of the FUNi cast of season 3 were very inexperienced while the Japanese Seiyuus were all experience VA's at the time. I'm not too familiar with the Japanese Seiyuus, but I do know a lot about the Latin American dub. And the "rookie"/"new guy", Lalo Garza krillin 's VA, had been voice acting professionally for 7 years. I imagine that it was a similar situation with the the Japanese cast. Where even the most "inexperienced" Seiyuus had been voice acting for some time and weren't just some random aspiring actors hired from the street.

I don't think it was.

[Kokonoe]

The original is in mono and recorded on older equipment, but their actors were experienced. It oddly fit the aesthetic.

Actually, that's not what I mean. I'm saying that the actual sound of the voices chosen per role sound better to me than the voices picked for the Japanese variant. Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku, the Japanese actors just don't do it for me on the same level for those characters.

I didn't say the Faulconer score didn't affect DBZ in a positive way. That wasn't remotely my point. And I've been around the fandom long enough to make general statements like nostalgia being a big factor in how the season 3 dub was received.

The point being that you mentioned there was a lack of evidence towards some of the things being mentioned in this thread, but you resort to generalizations for a different argument. You being around the fandom long enough is not enough to throw around generalizations like that. If we get into that aspect, all this would turn into is throwing generalizations back and forth. You don't speak for everyone just because you have experience with a possible minority on forums.

Enough time passes and any voice actor in that spot will be "iconic". It just goes to show you the power of DB, not the quality of the actors. The show is popular everywhere regardless of the music or the actors. Put it on a good timeslot and a channel kids watch, and it is bound to find an audience as evidence by Kai's popularity. It will always find an audience.

And this I really cannot agree with. It certainly matters how good they are or how unique they sound far more. The content gives them a medium to share with the world, but that does not mean it will be liked just cause the show is entertaining.

This isn't a mere localization. They changed the characterizations of a few characters. I have ZERO idea what you are getting at with the last sentence. This is about keeping true to the original story which is what I liked to begin with. It's not nostalgia.

The point was that you were talking about nostalgia here, but creating a separate standard that essentially implying there are reasons for people to not be "nostalgic" with the Japanese dub when either or not enjoys something more has nothing to do with how accurate it is to the source material. The point is that using nostalgia as an argument is poor.

Look, I have nostalgia for season 3. I readily admit it. I was 13 when it came out, and after waiting a year, the hype to continue the story was real. But even at 13 I could immediately tell, past all the newly available blood, that the production quality had significantly dropped to a near-amateurish level. The actors were clearly less experienced and obviously imitating their predecessors, the dialogue was poorer, and, yes, I couldn't stand the music. And this was all before I had gotten into the Japanese version, so it's not as if I was biased against the dub. The dub was all I knew, and the only music I really enjoyed had been the music in movies 1 and 2, which I didn't know was the Japanese score. I watched it anyway, despite the fact that I hated the voices and hated the music, because I loved Dragon Ball. Of course, once I found the Japanese version, I jumped ship and never looked back.

That the production was cheaper is a fact. Does that necessarily make it better or worse? No. But it doesn't really help. The rest are opinions, but they're opinions even the people involved with the dub share. The actors have all gone on record to say their performances sucked and loved the chance to do Kai simply because it gave them a chance to redeem themselves for their past work now that they were experienced professional actors.

And this is your opinion and I respect that, but just because you couldn't stand the music or think the voice actors are poor doesn't make it fact. It also doesn't mean people are nostalgia bias for liking it.

And even if the voice actors say their current iteration is better, that doesn't necessarily mean it is. I will say that they got more professional in ways, but lost character and emotion in others as time went on for certain ones.

This scene (Final Flash) in particular has way more emotion, intensity, and is just done overall better to me compared to Kai's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwrzYrpCHz0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpenO97UXXg

Just ugh.

[8000 Saiyan]

The original is in mono and recorded on older equipment, but their actors were experienced. It oddly fit the aesthetic.

Actually, that's not what I mean. I'm saying that the actual sound of the voices chosen per role sound better to me than the voices picked for the Japanese variant. Vegeta, Piccolo, Goku, the Japanese actors just don't do it for me on the same level for those characters.

I didn't say the Faulconer score didn't affect DBZ in a positive way. That wasn't remotely my point. And I've been around the fandom long enough to make general statements like nostalgia being a big factor in how the season 3 dub was received.

The point being that you mentioned there was a lack of evidence towards some of the things being mentioned in this thread, but you resort to generalizations for a different argument. You being around the fandom long enough is not enough to throw around generalizations like that. If we get into that aspect, all this would turn into is throwing generalizations back and forth. You don't speak for everyone just because you have experience with a possible minority on forums.

Enough time passes and any voice actor in that spot will be "iconic". It just goes to show you the power of DB, not the quality of the actors. The show is popular everywhere regardless of the music or the actors. Put it on a good timeslot and a channel kids watch, and it is bound to find an audience as evidence by Kai's popularity. It will always find an audience.

And this I really cannot agree with. It certainly matters how good they are or how unique they sound far more. The content gives them a medium to share with the world, but that does not mean it will be liked just cause the show is entertaining.

This isn't a mere localization. They changed the characterizations of a few characters. I have ZERO idea what you are getting at with the last sentence. This is about keeping true to the original story which is what I liked to begin with. It's not nostalgia.

The point was that you were talking about nostalgia here, but creating a separate standard that essentially implying there are reasons for people to not be "nostalgic" with the Japanese dub when either or not enjoys something more has nothing to do with how accurate it is to the source material. The point is that using nostalgia as an argument is poor.

Look, I have nostalgia for season 3. I readily admit it. I was 13 when it came out, and after waiting a year, the hype to continue the story was real. But even at 13 I could immediately tell, past all the newly available blood, that the production quality had significantly dropped to a near-amateurish level. The actors were clearly less experienced and obviously imitating their predecessors, the dialogue was poorer, and, yes, I couldn't stand the music. And this was all before I had gotten into the Japanese version, so it's not as if I was biased against the dub. The dub was all I knew, and the only music I really enjoyed had been the music in movies 1 and 2, which I didn't know was the Japanese score. I watched it anyway, despite the fact that I hated the voices and hated the music, because I loved Dragon Ball. Of course, once I found the Japanese version, I jumped ship and never looked back.

That the production was cheaper is a fact. Does that necessarily make it better or worse? No. But it doesn't really help. The rest are opinions, but they're opinions even the people involved with the dub share. The actors have all gone on record to say their performances sucked and loved the chance to do Kai simply because it gave them a chance to redeem themselves for their past work now that they were experienced professional actors.

And this is your opinion and I respect that, but just because you couldn't stand the music or think the voice actors are poor doesn't make it fact. It also doesn't mean people are nostalgia bias for liking it.

And even if the voice actors say their current iteration is better, that doesn't necessarily mean it is. I will say that they got more professional in ways, but lost character and emotion in others as time went on for certain ones.

This scene (Final Flash) in particular has way more emotion, intensity, and is just done overall better to me compared to Kai's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwrzYrpCHz0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpenO97UXXg

Just ugh.

I don't see how Funi Z has more emotion compared to Funi Kai. The music in Kai fits more than Faulconer's.

[Bajosexto]

Cheaper in $, but sounds better to me than what we got with the original Japanese.

That's because Toei presumably threw away the audio masters(or whatever they're called) and was only left with the optical audio. Which doesn't sound very good. This is why the Japanese audio sounds muffled on every home release. If your talking about the voice acting, well that's really subjective. But the fact is that most of the FUNi cast of season 3 were very inexperienced while the Japanese Seiyuus were all experience VA's at the time. I'm not too familiar with the Japanese Seiyuus, but I do know a lot about the Latin American dub. And the "rookie"/"new guy", Lalo Garza krillin 's VA, had been voice acting professionally for 7 years. I imagine that it was a similar situation with the the Japanese cast. Where even the most "inexperienced" Seiyuus had been voice acting for some time and weren't just some random aspiring actors hired from the street.

I don't think it was.

So where the Japanese Voice actors inexperienced?

[8000 Saiyan]

That's because Toei presumably threw away the audio masters(or whatever they're called) and was only left with the optical audio. Which doesn't sound very good. This is why the Japanese audio sounds muffled on every home release. If your talking about the voice acting, well that's really subjective. But the fact is that most of the FUNi cast of season 3 were very inexperienced while the Japanese Seiyuus were all experience VA's at the time. I'm not too familiar with the Japanese Seiyuus, but I do know a lot about the Latin American dub. And the "rookie"/"new guy", Lalo Garza krillin 's VA, had been voice acting professionally for 7 years. I imagine that it was a similar situation with the the Japanese cast. Where even the most "inexperienced" Seiyuus had been voice acting for some time and weren't just some random aspiring actors hired from the street.

I don't think it was.

So where the Japanese Voice actors inexperienced?

Most of them had experience in voice acting even before they did Dragon Ball. Furuya, Suzuoki and Furukawa were in the original Gundam series. I can't think of any in the cast that was inexperienced.

[ABED]

I wasnt' generalizing, I was very specific and you bring the argument I had with Gokuisasuperhero? His points were reached using an ad hoc fallacy.

There's far more reason to think people's fond feelings towards a good dub are coming from an honest appraisal of quality than a dub that even the actors acknowledge was poor. The actors had very little ability to emote in season 3 and their poor attempts to mimic other actors hampered them. Are you honestly going to tell me you thought Sabat's Drummond impression made for a great performance? If that and many others isn't enough to put. What about Linda Young's performance? Compare that to Ayres and you will see the difference in quality and characterization. Do you think that the show was better for turning Freeza from an upper crust dictator into a mustache twirling grandma who tries to sound tough and spouts cheesy lines?

Everything about the season 3 dub shouted "cheap". Even the cover art of the home video releases were screenshots.

And even in the examples you give, I'm not hearing this greater emotion.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Enough time passes and any voice actor in that spot will be "iconic". It just goes to show you the power of DB, not the quality of the actors. The show is popular everywhere regardless of the music or the actors. Put it on a good timeslot and a channel kids watch, and it is bound to find an audience as evidence by Kai's popularity. It will always find an audience.

And this I really cannot agree with. It certainly matters how good they are or how unique they sound far more. The content gives them a medium to share with the world, but that does not mean it will be liked just cause the show is entertaining.

Without trying to be rude, I think it's worth noting that your opinion doesn't matter here because it isn't a subjective matter to begin with. Find me a successful dub where a sizeable faction of fans won't call their Goku, their Vegeta, or their Piccolo the iconic version. Do that, and then your opinion on the matter will hold some weight.

[Bajosexto]

I don't think it was.

So where the Japanese Voice actors inexperienced?

Most of them had experience in voice acting even before they did Dragon Ball. Furuya, Suzuoki and Furukawa were in the original Gundam series. I can't think of any in the cast that was inexperienced.

Maybe I misunderstood your previous comment. What exactly do you meant when you replied to my comment about the Latin American dub an Javanese version being similar. In terms of VA experience?