Dragon Ball Minus is not bad.

[Master Xar]

Then why does it very clearly have more hate than the Bardock Special? That is the point here.

Simple. Because although you could argue it makes Bardock special like Minus does, what matters is not that both prequels share the same idea, but the way they're executed. Not to mention there are a plethora of other factors that contribute to the way the Bardock special better integrates itself into the original story's themes than Minus does.

You're isolating one aspect of both stories, ignoring execution, and claiming there's a double standard.

And that is why I’m judging the stories for what they are as stories and not backstories and it was already an innate flaw with telling the past to begin with.

You can do your best to detach Minus from Dragon Ball as a whole and try to judge it as its own standalone story, but you'd just be ignoring reality. Minus is a prequel, it's meant to expand on the universe of the original series, namely by showing Goku's backstory in this case. And even if you judge it as its own standalone story, there's still plenty to pick apart.

Yes and I’ve already went over that. You pretty much completely missed the point. Again.

1.) In-Universe he is already way less special and I already went over the difference between DB- and how it conveys that Bardock not being that special outside of his personality supplements Goku rising above power in its 15 pages despite that being their personality their “power” and HIM not being special adds to the story or doesn’t. And how it supplements Goku later down the line. Or how The Bardock Special makes Bardock in both role AND power more special than DB- Minus did.

YOU yourself already said that making Bardock (or the saiyans in general given the scenario) “special” ruins the themes in any way and I’m asking how that makes it any better or worse than each other. Namely Minus since it was already a retelling on how The Bardock Special when it already fucks up the theme in the first place. Now you are the one outright moving goalposts here.

Again this is all coming from the perspective that focusing on Bardock (or any saiyan for that matter) ruins the theme.)

2.) such as? We already went over the Raditz “plothole” you yourself said plot holes are somewhat vague if the events around them and the universe it is in allows for that sort of explanation. DB- minus is a quick run-through and a simple. Quick. Story which is to say it isn’t any better or worse. The “Special” thing was already an innate flaw of the backstory on Saiyans in the first place.

If we’re going by this your next post better give an explanation on how the “execution” of the The Bardock Special of Bardock himself already being special “adding” to the “special vs non-special” theme in The Saiyan Saga.

[Doctor.]

YOU yourself already said that making Bardock (or the saiyans in general given the scenario) “special” ruins the themes in any way and I’m asking how that makes it any better or worse than each other. Namely Minus since it was already a retelling on how The Bardock Special when it already fucks up the theme in the first place. Now you are the one outright moving goalposts here.

I don't have any interest in discussing the Bardock special. You started this thread with the purpose of ignoring the Bardock special, yet you keep bringing it to the discussion whenever it's convenient. You're not gonna trap me into arguing for something I don't intend to.

Again this is all coming from the perspective that focusing on Bardock (or any saiyan for that matter) ruins the theme.

Not if you don't make him special.

The “Special” thing was already an innate flaw of the backstory on Saiyans in the first place.

How? Which piece of information in the original series leads you to believe this?

If we’re going by this your next post better give an explanation on how the “execution” of the The Bardock Special of Bardock himself already being special “adding” to the “special vs non-special” theme in The Saiyan Saga.

I said it could be argued that Bardock is special in Toei's movie; just like it could be argued that he isn't. This is me being neutral and seeing both sides. I defended the Bardock special only in saying that some people consider it better than Minus despite possibly sharing the same idea because of the execution. I have no interest in that debate for the purposes of this thread, hence why I didn't give you my own personal opinion on the subject: of whether or not Bardock is special in Toei's version and of whether or not him being special in Toei's version ruins the Saiyan arc; you don't know what I think about this because I have no intention of discussing this. I say you keep shifting the goalposts because you are. You want to discuss Minus but you keep bringing up the TV special.

[Master Xar]

YOU yourself already said that making Bardock (or the saiyans in general given the scenario) “special” ruins the themes in any way and I’m asking how that makes it any better or worse than each other. Namely Minus since it was already a retelling on how The Bardock Special when it already fucks up the theme in the first place. Now you are the one outright moving goalposts here.

I don't have any interest in discussing the Bardock special. You started this thread with the purpose of ignoring the Bardock special, yet you keep bringing it to the discussion whenever it's convenient. You're not gonna trap me into arguing for something I don't intend to.

Again this is all coming from the perspective that focusing on Bardock (or any saiyan for that matter) ruins the theme.

Not if you don't make him special.

The “Special” thing was already an innate flaw of the backstory on Saiyans in the first place.

How? Which piece of information in the original series leads you to believe this?

If we’re going by this your next post better give an explanation on how the “execution” of the The Bardock Special of Bardock himself already being special “adding” to the “special vs non-special” theme in The Saiyan Saga.

I said it could be argued that Bardock is special in Toei's movie; just like it could be argued that he isn't. This is me being neutral and seeing both sides. I defended the Bardock special only in saying that some people consider it better than Minus despite possibly sharing the same idea because of the execution. I have no interest in that debate for the purposes of this thread, hence why I didn't give you my own personal opinion on the subject: of whether or not Bardock is special in Toei's version and of whether or not him being special in Toei's version ruins the Saiyan arc; you don't know what I think about this because I have no intention of discussing this. I say you keep shifting the goalposts because you are. You want to discuss Minus but you keep bringing up the TV special.

1.) No I started the discussion and argued a neutral point of view. That DB- doesn’t do anything objectively bad as a story on it’s own. It is a simple story with easy to understand themes that were already quite similar if not the same as the original bardock special with a different spin on it. You’ve been the one sitting here trying to get me to speak on The Bardock Special. I had to be obvious with what I was saying and had to get out of my neutral point of view, because the point was going over your heads.

2.) No duh. You and I already said this.

3.) From the simple fact that it focuses on the Saiyans in the first place. If we ignore the Bardock backstory ENTIRELY The Saiyan Saga hailed them as these evil aliens and that Goku was destined to be one of them if he didn’t hit his head, or that his potential was all his own. That only he was special amongst all the Saiyans

4.) If Bardock wasn’t special and we didn’t have the circumstances or conveniences that he did... what would be the point? if we’re going with the idea that being special ruins The Saiyan Saga narrative. The fact that we even focused on Bardock (which his entire point is that he was unique or special enough to get Goku away or distract Freeza long enough to buy time for his son to escape.) We shouldn’t have gone on a journey or had him or ANY other Saiyan in the first place be special or expanded on. The Bardock Special and DB- both have saiyans that are different from the rest of them in some fashion and that they are “special.”

[Doctor.]

You’ve been the one sitting here trying to get me to speak on The Bardock Special.

I haven't, but believe what you will.

3.) From the simple fact that it focuses on the Saiyans in the first place. If we ignore the Bardock backstory ENTIRELY The Saiyan Saga hailed them as these evil aliens and that Goku was destined to be one of them if he didn’t hit his head, or that his potential was all his own. That only he was special amongst all the Saiyans

I don't know where you got the idea that a main character is necessarily special, but the series you discuss already proves you wrong. Goku isn't special in the Saiyan arc. Goku was sent to Earth to destroy it because he was a weakling who wouldn't be able to handle a stronger planet. He managed to overcome his biological programming through pure luck, unlike Bardock and Gine who were good-natured just because. Once you take into account the fact that Bardock and Gine are unlike their fellow Saiyans, then your immediate assumption is "Oh, duh, that's why Goku is so pure-hearted!"

You may bring up Vegeta, as proof that other Saiyans can change and, thus, it legitimizes Bardock and Gine being good Saiyans. But you'd be ignoring two important things: 1) context, because Vegeta matured over the span of entire decades, after freeing himself from the barbaric, bloodthirsty societies he was raised in and b) Vegeta himself is special, he's a prince and he's the one who heavily contrasts with Goku's low-class nature.

4.) If Bardock wasn’t special and we didn’t have the circumstances or conveniences that he did... what would be the point? if we’re going with the idea that being special ruins The Saiyan Saga narrative. The fact that we even focused on Bardock (which his entire point is that he was unique or special enough to get Goku away or distract Freeza long enough to buy time for his son to escape.) We shouldn’t have gone on a journey or had him or ANY other Saiyan in the first place be special or expanded on. The Bardock Special and DB- both have saiyans that are different from the rest of them in some fashion and that they are “special.”

All we know about Bardock in the original story is that he rebelled against Freeza. That's it. That doesn't necessarily mean he's special because, obviously, he failed. You can write a story within that framework that is worthwhile without ruining the Saiyan arc. I mean, if we took Bardock's high battle power and his psychic visions out of the TV Special and kept the rest as-is, then you probably wouldn't have much of a reason to call him unique; he already had enough motivation to attack Freeza since Dodoria killed his men.

[Master Xar]

You’ve been the one sitting here trying to get me to speak on The Bardock Special.

I haven't, but believe what you will.

3.) From the simple fact that it focuses on the Saiyans in the first place. If we ignore the Bardock backstory ENTIRELY The Saiyan Saga hailed them as these evil aliens and that Goku was destined to be one of them if he didn’t hit his head, or that his potential was all his own. That only he was special amongst all the Saiyans

I don't know where you got the idea that a main character is necessarily special, but the series you discuss already proves you wrong. Goku isn't special in the Saiyan arc. Goku was sent to Earth to destroy it because he was a weakling who wouldn't be able to handle a stronger planet. He managed to overcome his biological programming through pure luck, unlike Bardock and Gine who were good-natured just because. Once you take into account the fact that Bardock and Gine are unlike their fellow Saiyans, then your immediate assumption is "Oh, duh, that's why Goku is so pure-hearted!"

You may bring up Vegeta, as proof that other Saiyans can change and, thus, it legitimizes Bardock and Gine being good Saiyans. But you'd be ignoring two important things: 1) context, because Vegeta matured over the span of entire decades, after freeing himself from the barbaric, bloodthirsty societies he was raised in and b) Vegeta himself is special, he's a prince and he's the one who heavily contrasts with Goku's low-class nature.

4.) If Bardock wasn’t special and we didn’t have the circumstances or conveniences that he did... what would be the point? if we’re going with the idea that being special ruins The Saiyan Saga narrative. The fact that we even focused on Bardock (which his entire point is that he was unique or special enough to get Goku away or distract Freeza long enough to buy time for his son to escape.) We shouldn’t have gone on a journey or had him or ANY other Saiyan in the first place be special or expanded on. The Bardock Special and DB- both have saiyans that are different from the rest of them in some fashion and that they are “special.”

All we know about Bardock in the original story is that he rebelled against Freeza. That's it. That doesn't necessarily mean he's special because, obviously, he failed. You can write a story within that framework that is worthwhile without ruining the Saiyan arc. I mean, if we took Bardock's high battle power and his psychic visions out of the TV Special and kept the rest as-is, then you probably wouldn't have much of a reason to call him unique; he already had enough motivation to attack Freeza since Dodoria killed his men.

1.) yes you have. Subtly or not. Your criticism for Minus of Bardock being “special” yet not already saying this for The Bardock Special Bardock was already a double standard. Minus is a retelling if Bardock’s story and with that he was already “special” in the first place from focusing on him has a main character of his own story. A main character or protagonist is focused on BECAUSE their journey is more interesting than the rest in-universe as far as we know.

2.) Goku was the last of the remaining Saiyans alive, he has a power level (after his training with King Kai) over most saiyans we’ve seen up to this point. Yes he gained it with hard work and circumstances, but those circumstances are still “special”, he is on one of two planets in the ENTIRE universe to have wish-granting orbs that can REVIVE people, the fact that he hit his head is pure luck. You said it yourself “Goku overcame his biological programming with pure luck ”
Goku is no more lucky and unlike any Saiyan through pure circumstance, he has SOMETHING special about him or his circumstances or we wouldn’t be following him as a protagonist if he was like the rest now would we?
They weren’t good-hearted saiyans “just because” we don’t know their backstory or the context to how they became different from the rest because it is a 15 page manga it doesn’t have the room to explain the context.
...And I could say the same for Bardock and The Bardock Special for how IT makes Bardock more special than the rest with the circumstances revolving around him with his 10,000 power level (surpassing Nappa), his psychic powers, and the circumstances revolving around him being at the right place and the right time, or just pure luck all serve to make him special.
You can’t just look at the circumstances of what makes one “special” and ignore the other.

“No duh Goku surpassed an elite and powers outside of the Saiyan norm! His father did too!”

In regards to Vegeta 1.) and that’s a very biased thing to say, yes he has context because he has a longer more fleshed-out story, Gine and Bardock are in a shorter one. There is no “context” for them to be given because they aren’t the focus of a longer story to give reasons as to why they are good.
2.) outside of being a royal heir with a high starting power and having love for his children and family that other Saiyans cannot have (which this was in an interview BTW) , he is no more or less Saiyan than anyone else.

3.) And that’s why I’m saying it’s best to leave it as unexplained and undived into as possible. If we were to go back into the past and follow Bardock in any way, shape, or form to not make him “special” or any other Saiyan from that matter, you’d get complaints of the story being too boring as to not have a main character. And now that we DO have a main character in the form of Bardock and how HE stands out. Then we run into the double-edged sword of diving into the backstory of the saiyans in the first place.

[Kamiccolo9]

The OP is clearly not interested in arguing in good faith. Everyone else seems to be having a meaningful discussion without him; maybe it'd be best to just ignore him at this point.

[Doctor.]

1.) yes you have. Subtly or not. Your criticism for Minus of Bardock being “special” yet not already saying this for The Bardock Special Bardock was already a double standard. Minus is a retelling if Bardock’s story and with that he was already “special” in the first place from focusing on him has a main character of his own story. A main character or protagonist is focused on BECAUSE their journey is more interesting than the rest in-universe as far as we know.

[...]

...And I could say the same for Bardock and The Bardock Special for how IT makes Bardock more special than the rest with the circumstances revolving around him with his 10,000 power level (surpassing Nappa), his psychic powers, and the circumstances revolving around him being at the right place and the right time, or just pure luck all serve to make him special.
You can’t just look at the circumstances of what makes one “special” and ignore the other.

You're continuously trying to trap me into arguing something I don't want to argue (because you specifically said we shouldn't compare Minus to the TV special) in order to assert that I, and everyone else, have a double standard when it comes to judging these two stories. If you so desperately want my opinion on the TV Special, then here it is: no, I do not like the fact that Bardock had such a high battle power in the TV Special, nor do I like the fact that he gets psychic visions (not because I think it makes him "special", but because it unnecessarily brings in themes of destiny and prophecy into the series, an idea I'm not that on-board with). I think the TV Special could have been a perfectly serviceable story with these two aspects removed; Bardock's battle power has barely any effect on the story, so there was no need for it to be that high. I do think it takes a bit away from Goku's character that Bardock is this strong. The psychic visions do the same thing, as Goku's journey being predetermined from birth delegitimizes his efforts.

Now, with that being said, do I think it ruins the Saiyan arc? At the very least, it makes Goku's efforts to get that strong seem less impressive. Bardock was still weaker than king Vegeta, so the theme of "low-class vs elite" remains in place, but you could argue that with Bardock being so strong, it's no surprise that his offspring managed to stand up to Vegeta; things get worse if you follow the same view I have on what prophesying the future means, that it makes any kind hard-work pointless. But Goku was still a forgotten, hated castaway whose people and parents didn't care about him (until Bardock foresaw his power, so it's a superficial "love" at best) sent to Earth to destroy it, and it's both compelling and satisfying that he ends up becoming the Earth's savior and defeating the strongest Saiyan in the process; it's not satisfying and compelling that Goku managed to survive like his parents wanted and became a good person just like his parents were. Do I think the TV Special is a bad story? No. I think these are two bad elements that don't ruin a story because the TV Special makes up for it in so much more, namely in characterization, lore, tone and atmosphere. While it may falter a bit, the TV Special still manages to integrate itself somewhat cleanly into the Saiyan arc. Minus lacks any of these qualities to redeem it, so all we're left with are aspects that ruin everything Goku in the Saiyan arc stood for.

I don't have double standards, and you failed in trying to prove it even after I bit your bait and gave you my detailed opinion on the TV Special and how it compares to MInus. I tried to avoid talking about the TV Special because you were the one who wanted to judge Minus isolated from it. If you still wish to say I have double standards upon reading this, then that is your prerogative, but I'll have to agree with everyone else and say you're not really interested in discussion at this point.

[Master Xar]

1.) yes you have. Subtly or not. Your criticism for Minus of Bardock being “special” yet not already saying this for The Bardock Special Bardock was already a double standard. Minus is a retelling if Bardock’s story and with that he was already “special” in the first place from focusing on him has a main character of his own story. A main character or protagonist is focused on BECAUSE their journey is more interesting than the rest in-universe as far as we know.

[...]

...And I could say the same for Bardock and The Bardock Special for how IT makes Bardock more special than the rest with the circumstances revolving around him with his 10,000 power level (surpassing Nappa), his psychic powers, and the circumstances revolving around him being at the right place and the right time, or just pure luck all serve to make him special.
You can’t just look at the circumstances of what makes one “special” and ignore the other.

You're continuously trying to trap me into arguing something I don't want to argue (because you specifically said we shouldn't compare Minus to the TV special) in order to assert that I, and everyone else, have a double standard when it comes to judging these two stories. If you so desperately want my opinion on the TV Special, then here it is: no, I do not like the fact that Bardock had such a high battle power in the TV Special, nor do I like the fact that he gets psychic visions (not because I think it makes him "special", but because it unnecessarily brings in themes of destiny and prophecy into the series, an idea I'm not that on-board with). I think the TV Special could have been a perfectly serviceable story with these two aspects removed; Bardock's battle power has barely any effect on the story, so there was no need for it to be that high. I do think it takes a bit away from Goku's character that Bardock is this strong. The psychic visions do the same thing, as Goku's journey being predetermined from birth delegitimizes his efforts.

Now, with that being said, do I think it ruins the Saiyan arc? At the very least, it makes Goku's efforts to get that strong seem less impressive. Bardock was still weaker than king Vegeta, so the theme of "low-class vs elite" remains in place, but you could argue that with Bardock being so strong, it's no surprise that his offspring managed to stand up to Vegeta; things get worse if you follow the same view I have on what prophesying the future means, that it makes any kind hard-work pointless. But Goku was still a forgotten, hated castaway whose people and parents didn't care about him (until Bardock foresaw his power, so it's a superficial "love" at best) sent to Earth to destroy it, and it's both compelling and satisfying that he ends up becoming the Earth's savior and defeating the strongest Saiyan in the process; it's not satisfying and compelling that Goku managed to survive like his parents wanted and became a good person just like his parents were. Do I think the TV Special is a bad story? No. I think these are two bad elements that don't ruin a story because the TV Special makes up for it in so much more, namely in characterization, lore, tone and atmosphere. While it may falter a bit, the TV Special still manages to integrate itself somewhat cleanly into the Saiyan arc. Minus lacks any of these qualities to redeem it, so all we're left with are aspects that ruin everything Goku in the Saiyan arc stood for.

I don't have double standards, and you failed in trying to prove it even after I bit your bait and gave you my detailed opinion on the TV Special and how it compares to MInus. I tried to avoid talking about the TV Special because you were the one who wanted to judge Minus isolated from it. If you still wish to say I have double standards upon reading this, then that is your prerogative, but I'll have to agree with everyone else and say you're not really interested in discussion at this point.

Well if you offer criticism for one thing you can’t shit on the other simply because it doesn’t go for a more fleshed out story. But every one of those 15 pages in minus were there to communicate something or show us something to do with the situation. Yes I’m judging Minus for it’s own merits, but I was also highlighting how hypocritical the opinions are of minus making Bardock seem “special” when it really isn’t as fair to throw it that way because it is a shorter story and can’t give context for DB- Bardock’s morality.

It’s not simply who he is stronger than that Bardock Special Bardock is stronger than. It is the showing of his potential and regardless of who he is currently stronger than he is still fairly above all the Saiyans and is absurdly strong for a low-class warrior, he surpasses Nappa in overall power and still barely below King Vegeta... Just like how Goku. To accentuate my point where I don’t doubt that if it was Bardock vs King Vegeta where it is framed likely similar to Goku vs Vegeta in comparison... Bardock would still find a way to beat him despite being lower in overall power similar to Goku without Kaioken was lower in power than Vegeta, but would still find a way to beat him outside of the norm of power or moveset of the average saiyan.

They even have the similar extra power that makes them stand out and have an advantage over the saiyans (Kaioken and Psychic powers) in my opinion if we look at it like that in terms of power, potential, and abilities it is similar. It would also take away from The Saiyan Saga.

Hell they are framed even in the same power range as their respective counterparts. Goku (8,000+)
vs Vegeta (18,000)
Bardock (7,000-10,000+ post healing) vs King Vegeta (~12,000+) and both in their initial power being stronger than Nappa (4,000-6/7,000)

The DB- manga is shorter thus doesn’t have time to give such context over a Special and even with The Bardock Special and its fleshing out of the themes it still ruins and is framed to “ruin” what made the Saiyan Saga so unique just as much if not more so than DB-, since it gives so much context and STILL frames Bardock in the same somewhat power range of “low class vs elite” and shows as much potential as Goku, and if we go into the other (non-canon) Bardock material it is already so obvious that he is Goku’s father outside of his personality...



and even with DB- being a shorter story I can use what the story shows of Bardock’s profession, that outside of his love for his family, off-panel he is still willingly killing and exterminating entire races of people for Freeza’s sake, I don’t need a thirty minute to 40 minute special to know that.

The story doesn’t have to give me a big special to let me know that Bardock is still just as Saiyan as the rest outside of his familial love which leads to him saving Goku just like how the Bardock Special frames him in it just the same underdog status of (low-class vs elite)

So yes there is some double standards here. I was trying to avoid the “special” argument because it is already a problem with telling Bardock as a special in the first place, a retelling in DB- sake was already going to have that problem off the bat. And like I said earlier I was playing neutral to give people a go at looking at DB- outside of the established criticisms to see if it better or worse than they previously interpreted (or in some cases copied the same opinion)

You say “lore, characterization, tone, and atmosphere” like DB- doesn’t have that. It’s a simpler story so it doesn’t have room to convey as much of that information, but it doesn’t change or be anywhere more or less inconsistent with it’s tone, atmosphere, lore, and characterization any more or less than the Bardock special.

What part of DB- is bad or inconsistent with any of the 4 above. in those 15 pages and at the consistent pace it is consistently going at?

If in which case it isn’t a badly executed short story. It is just that. A short story.

You want the Bardock Special to show and tell you more in a longer story because you want to be “distracted” from the problems of making Bardock “Special” in any way presented. You can hold a preference for that of course. But to say that a shorter more pact up story is worse because it doesn’t “distract” you from what it shows and tells you in those short 15 pages isn’t to say it is a worse story for it.

[DBZAOTA482]

The OP is clearly not interested in arguing in good faith. Everyone else seems to be having a meaningful discussion without him; maybe it'd be best to just ignore him at this point.

The fact TC is trying to defend Minus unironically is already a testament to his critical perception or lack thereof.

[Doctor.]

Yes I’m judging Minus for it’s own merits, but I was also highlighting how hypocritical the opinions are of minus making Bardock seem “special” when it really isn’t as fair to throw it that way because it is a shorter story and can’t give context for DB- Bardock’s morality.

This is preposterous. Nobody forced Toriyama to write a 15 page story. Nobody forced Toriyama to write a Superman origin story rip-off within 15 pages, either. Toriyama wrote what he wanted to. This "it was a short story, so it's okay" argument is ridiculous, especially considering the fact that Toriyama has proven he can write gripping and compelling stories in 15 pages: see the Trunks side story (even if I personally think the anime TV Special is better still). Maybe Toriyama should have thought better rather than writing a story about the entire Saiyan backstory in 15 pages. And even if the story needed to be 15 pages, then as GafferTape said on his DB Minus video, don't waste panel space on pointless shit: there's no need to waste 2 pages on the Galactic Patrol, there's no need to waste a big panel on Vegeta and Raditz who contribute nothing to the story, there's no need to waste 2 pages on Freeza saying he'll destroy the Saiyans (something we already know) rather than making the decision to do so.

It’s not simply who he is stronger than that Bardock Special Bardock is stronger than.

I don't understand why you're still hung up on this point when I already said Bardock being so strong is a problem.

The DB- manga is shorter thus doesn’t have time to give such context over a Special and even with The Bardock Special and its fleshing out of the themes it still ruins and is framed to “ruin” what made the Saiyan Saga so unique just as much if not more so than DB-,

Yes, I already said this. Stop bringing up the Bardock special. I have no interest in discussing the Bardock special. I already gave you my detailed opinion on the Bardock special precisely so we can stop discussing it since you kept accusing me of having double standards.

So yes there is some double standards here.

There are ZERO. Not on my side, at least. I have given you my opinion of how the two stories suffer from the same problem and how they affect the Saiyan arc, and you STILL continue to accuse me of this. It's frankly ridiculous at this point. If all you want is to have your opinion parroted back at you, then say so, because that way I stop wasting my time.

You say “lore, characterization, tone, and atmosphere” like DB- doesn’t have that. It’s a simpler story so it doesn’t have room to convey as much of that information, but it doesn’t change or be anywhere more or less inconsistent with it’s tone, atmosphere, lore, and characterization any more or less than the Bardock special.

Of course it has lore, characterization, tone and atmosphere. Every story does. I'm saying they're not good. Bardock is one-note, he's not interesting, he's already unique and distinguishes himself from the rest of the Saiyans by being good-natured and loving his family, and being the only one who knows of Freeza's plot for some reason, just because Freeza ordered the Saiyans to go back to planet Vegeta and his soldiers have been asking around for Super Saiyan; I guess Bardock is the only Saiyan in the entire universe with a brain, either that or he's extremely paranoid, because the conclusion he comes to is absolutely nonsensical with the amount of information he has. What do we know of Bardock in this story? He kills people and he loves his family. That's it. That's literally it. There's no arc. Gine, likewise, is also uninteresting. She's a Saiyan woman, yet she serves as a generic kitchen housewife. Freeza knows of the Super Saiyan God, again for no reason, without explanation, and it's just thrown-out during exposition without purpose; it's a transformation that has NOTHING to do with Freeza, his arc, Bardock or the Saiyan arc. And, as said above, Freeza already knows, from the start of the story, he's going to destroy the Saiyans; he doesn't make a decision, he doesn't weigh the pros and cons, he doesn't come to the conclusion that destroying the Saiyans is what he should do based on some in-universe revelation or new piece of information. So the "lore" in DB Minus is stuff we already know. What "new" lore there is, is irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with the stories Minus attaches itself to. Characterization is awful for any character involved in this, because they're all one note and exposition machines. And the tone and atmosphere of this are upbeat and optimistic, which is completely tonally dissonant with the Saiyan and Freeza arcs.

There's nothing good in this story. Nothing. You don't need to compare it to the TV Special to assert this. You don't even need to point out how it ruins the Saiyan arc to assert this. It's a piece of trash on its own merit.

But to say that a shorter more pact up story is worse because it doesn’t “distract” you from what it shows and tells you in those short 15 pages isn’t to say it is a worse story for it.

No, I say a 15 page story doesn't have ANYTHING worthwhile in it, because it doesn't. To use the Trunks side story example again, it's a 15 page story, and I don't like how Trunks was already a Super Saiyan at the start of the chapter, yet I don't dislike it because everything else in it is good.

[Grimlock]

Bardock (...) being the only one who knows of Freeza's plot for some reason, just because Freeza ordered the Saiyans to go back to planet Vegeta and his soldiers have been asking around for Super Saiyan; I guess Bardock is the only Saiyan in the entire universe with a brain, either that or he's extremely paranoid, because the conclusion he comes to is absolutely nonsensical with the amount of information he has. What do we know of Bardock in this story? He kills people and he loves his family.

That is where Toriyama's interview comes in. He said that Saiyans are indeed of simple thoughts and Bardock sets apart from the rest of them because of this. So while Saiyans didn't put too much thought on why they were all assembled, Bardock did.

I know you're talking solely about the manga, so I say all the information provided in the interview should have made its way to the manga, so that maybe (and I can't stress "maybe" enough) Dragon Ball Minus could be better. Because not everyone (1) knows Kanzenshuu and (2) have read the interview about Bardock/Gine, so leaving out a couple of information that is only seen in an interview only contributes to a bad "story".

[Master Xar]

Yes I’m judging Minus for it’s own merits, but I was also highlighting how hypocritical the opinions are of minus making Bardock seem “special” when it really isn’t as fair to throw it that way because it is a shorter story and can’t give context for DB- Bardock’s morality.

This is preposterous. Nobody forced Toriyama to write a 15 page story. Nobody forced Toriyama to write a Superman origin story rip-off within 15 pages, either. Toriyama wrote what he wanted to. This "it was a short story, so it's okay" argument is ridiculous, especially considering the fact that Toriyama has proven he can write gripping and compelling stories in 15 pages: see the Trunks side story (even if I personally think the anime TV Special is better still). Maybe Toriyama should have thought better rather than writing a story about the entire Saiyan backstory in 15 pages. And even if the story needed to be 15 pages, then as GafferTape said on his DB Minus video, don't waste panel space on pointless shit: there's no need to waste 2 pages on the Galactic Patrol, there's no need to waste a big panel on Vegeta and Raditz who contribute nothing to the story, there's no need to waste 2 pages on Freeza saying he'll destroy the Saiyans (something we already know) rather than making the decision to do so.

It’s not simply who he is stronger than that Bardock Special Bardock is stronger than.

I don't understand why you're still hung up on this point when I already said Bardock being so strong is a problem.

The DB- manga is shorter thus doesn’t have time to give such context over a Special and even with The Bardock Special and its fleshing out of the themes it still ruins and is framed to “ruin” what made the Saiyan Saga so unique just as much if not more so than DB-,

Yes, I already said this. Stop bringing up the Bardock special. I have no interest in discussing the Bardock special. I already gave you my detailed opinion on the Bardock special precisely so we can stop discussing it since you kept accusing me of having double standards.

So yes there is some double standards here.

There are ZERO. Not on my side, at least. I have given you my opinion of how the two stories suffer from the same problem and how they affect the Saiyan arc, and you STILL continue to accuse me of this. It's frankly ridiculous at this point. If all you want is to have your opinion parroted back at you, then say so, because that way I stop wasting my time.

You say “lore, characterization, tone, and atmosphere” like DB- doesn’t have that. It’s a simpler story so it doesn’t have room to convey as much of that information, but it doesn’t change or be anywhere more or less inconsistent with it’s tone, atmosphere, lore, and characterization any more or less than the Bardock special.

Of course it has lore, characterization, tone and atmosphere. Every story does. I'm saying they're not good. Bardock is one-note, he's not interesting, he's already unique and distinguishes himself from the rest of the Saiyans by being good-natured and loving his family, and being the only one who knows of Freeza's plot for some reason, just because Freeza ordered the Saiyans to go back to planet Vegeta and his soldiers have been asking around for Super Saiyan; I guess Bardock is the only Saiyan in the entire universe with a brain, either that or he's extremely paranoid, because the conclusion he comes to is absolutely nonsensical with the amount of information he has. What do we know of Bardock in this story? He kills people and he loves his family. That's it. That's literally it. There's no arc. Gine, likewise, is also uninteresting. She's a Saiyan woman, yet she serves as a generic kitchen housewife. Freeza knows of the Super Saiyan God, again for no reason, without explanation, and it's just thrown-out during exposition without purpose; it's a transformation that has NOTHING to do with Freeza, his arc, Bardock or the Saiyan arc. And, as said above, Freeza already knows, from the start of the story, he's going to destroy the Saiyans; he doesn't make a decision, he doesn't weigh the pros and cons, he doesn't come to the conclusion that destroying the Saiyans is what he should do based on some in-universe revelation or new piece of information. So the "lore" in DB Minus is stuff we already know. What "new" lore there is, is irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with the stories Minus attaches itself to. Characterization is awful for any character involved in this, because they're all one note and exposition machines. And the tone and atmosphere of this are upbeat and optimistic, which is completely tonally dissonant with the Saiyan and Freeza arcs.

There's nothing good in this story. Nothing. You don't need to compare it to the TV Special to assert this. You don't even need to point out how it ruins the Saiyan arc to assert this. It's a piece of trash on its own merit.

But to say that a shorter more pact up story is worse because it doesn’t “distract” you from what it shows and tells you in those short 15 pages isn’t to say it is a worse story for it.

No, I say a 15 page story doesn't have ANYTHING worthwhile in it, because it doesn't. To use the Trunks side story example again, it's a 15 page story, and I don't like how Trunks was already a Super Saiyan at the start of the chapter, yet I don't dislike it because everything else in it is good.

1.) I never said that someone “forced” him to. I’m saying he WANTED to. Where did you even come from with this?

Wow. You are actually more of a follower than I thought.

Every page shot or shot in any work serves a purpose or has a reasoning behind it, you have to find meaning behind it yourself is the job. And you basically blindly repeated what Gaffer said. This already said even without saying since you follow his opinion that even beforehand you had a bias for The Bardock Special yeah? Proves my point that people came in here with a bias without even saying it...

1.) Yes. And that’s the point. Bardock is not as interesting, he does not stand out as far as that to the other saiyans outside of his familial love which is better for the Saiyan Saga’s themes, he is not as interesting and is not on the forefront. And as far as being “Superman’s story” just as much as I can distinguish from that in The Bardock Special. Bardock “not being special or interesting” works far better for The Saiyan Saga, Gine as well since you want to throw her in the “non-special/generic” role too, do you not agree? Or are we going to turn around and say Bardock and Gine are high quality characters here. A Story or character being “generic” is still not an objective criticism. There is only so many things that set so many stories apart from ideas and conveyance of those ideas, especially in shorter, more condensed stories like this,

One person’s “generic” is another person’s “unique”. Yes if you (summarize) tell of DB- Bardock you’ll soon find yourself back to the idea that he is the “same” as other stories. You yourself don’t invest to the idea that he is different in any way from besides from what you seen of the Superman story first... if you’ve even really seen it in the first place and not following the opinion of it being “generic” from following the opinion or pointing out of the similarities between them in the first place to try to sound “objectively criticizing”... which I doubt.

Outside of his parents caring for him and being the one’s to send him off-planet they literally couldn’t be any more different.

2.) ...Bro. I’m going to have to break this down since you don’t seem to know how backstory fucking works.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/backstory

Backstory is a history. An explanation or development of how we got from point A to point B. And with a story possibly introduce new information along the way.

Now given “your” criticisms let’s go with what you’re saying. Now hold on to that definition of a backstory since this third point honestly makes no sense of the criticism.

A.) The Galactic Patrol. A fairly new and introduced concept at least from the perspective of a Dragonball fan that does not follow all of Akira Toriyama’s work. If you already know about it then sure, but this is... a backstory an explanation of how we got towards events A to B. Give me an idea of how this is “pointless” and this not considering that this explains where they were during the events of the show.

B.) And? How does it serve no purpose in the context of a backstory? You are telling me no one was curious as to where Vegeta and Raditz were during all these events? If not already before... especially the ones that would screech PLOTHOLE if the panel was not shown to the context of “All the Saiyans were called to gather back to planet Vegeta” not to say it really was a plothole that much in the first place. But let’s consider that a perspective.

C.) So you’re telling me no fan is curious of... if and when Freeza finally decides to get rid of the saiyans once and for all and his thoughts? As well if he is informed on the SSJG? Hell ESPECIALLY the SSJG since there was no mention of it prior BOG, this gives it more build-up and context.

(especially since we already know)

I have no words.

So you are saying... that since we already know it we shouldn’t dive into it or give context to it since we already know it happens in the main story?

So... you are saying you don’t like backstory in the first place? because that’s what backstory is. Hell the entire destruction of Planet Vegeta (something that happens in both The Special and Minus) is fucking backstory we already know the events of the destruction of Planet Vegeta in the first place so do you or do you not like backstory of Planet Vegeta being told in the first place since we already know about it my dude...? moving on...

3.) As long as you bring up how Bardock being “special” in Minus being a negative point against it, the more I’m going to bring it up in Minus. This conversation already devolved into Minus vs The Bardock Special so lets get it over with.

4.) Yes you did. Your criticisms and wording are pretty much similar to if not mimicking GafferTape’s so of course I’m going to assume so. I encouraged people to look back at have their own opinion of the DragonBall- and you just proved in your first paragraph you are basically mimicking the opinion.

5.) Yes there are if you aren’t going to offer any hard criticism for one being “generic” than the other. Namely regarding Bardock’s power of the “OOHHH the protagonist’s parents are just as talented and special as him.” You are going to call one “generic” and not the other here? Because that’s double standards.

6.) yes. It is a hunch. That he came to himself. A story’s protagonist is going to have convenience
(Note: actually thinking about it, Bardock may not have been the only one to think about it, thus more coukd have possibly escaped if you want an “in-universe” explanation”)
just like Bardock in the The Bardock Special story conveniently being the only Saiyan to have psychic powers, and the only saiyan suspicious of Freeza even after he informs a whole fucking room of them at once.
That no other saiyan escaped the planet in the several minutes and dialogue exchange of Bardock confronting Freeza. Hell Goku being the only one of saiyans to go off planet on that day makes no fucking sense in the first place. At least Minus gives context to why the ALL the saiyans are gathered on the planet which was already a plothole in the Original and Bardock Special in and of itself.

If you are going to criticize a story for the characters making dumb decisions and plot convenience... in Dragonball the story the continues and rides off the flaws and bad decisions of the characters (ala the Fucking Cell Saga in general...) (not saying the is a objectively bad thing. Just saying) then you are very clearly in the wrong franchise my dude.

And if every character in every fiction ever was completely perfect... there would be little to no plot since the characters make little to no mistakes outside of the physical capability to do so...

[Doctor.]

1.) I never said that someone “forced” him to. I’m saying he WANTED to. Where did you even come from with this?

Stop being obtuse. I'm saying the page number is no excuse for poor storytelling.

Wow. You are actually more of a follower than I thought.

Sharing an opinion with someone else is not being a follower. Especially since you're no special snowflake yourself, and every excuse you're throwing around in this thread has been said by countless other people before. Newsflash, most opinions aren't completely unique; it doesn't mean they're not your own.

Every page shot or shot in any work serves a purpose or has a reasoning behind it, you have to find meaning behind it yourself is the job. And you basically blindly repeated what Gaffer said. This already said even without saying since you follow his opinion that even beforehand you had a bias for The Bardock Special yeah? Proves my point that people came in here with a bias without even saying it...

How, pray tell, can I have a bias for the Bardock special when I've argued that the Bardock special makes the same mistakes and I've been trying to argue how Minus is bad without comparing it to the Bardock special, which is what YOU WANTED FROM THE START (and have been conveniently ignoring since, by continuously bringing up the Bardock special).

Am I being taken for a ride? I can't believe I'm having this conversation right now.

1.) Yes. And that’s the point.

That's the point? The point is that Bardock is one-note and uninteresting? The point is that Bardock is poorly characterized; that's, in essence, what you're saying. If this is the case, then I don't know what you're arguing for. You're saying that Minus is BAD on PURPOSE.

which is better for the Saiyan Saga’s themes.

It's better than what? Is it better than the Bardock special? If so, then I again reiterate that I don't give a shit if it's better or not because YOU keep ignoring your own rule and bringing up the Bardock special time and time again. You're not saying "it's not bad," what you're saying is "at least it's better than the TV Special," which doesn't help your argument at all considering that's just moving the goalpost rather than addressing the argument being presented to you.

If it's better in the sense that it enhances the Saiyan arc somehow, then you're gonna have to elaborate on this point because I don't see how Bardock being kind and loving his family improves the way we read the Saiyan arc.

Outside of his parents caring for him and being the one’s to send him off-planet they literally couldn’t be any more different.

Your description proves that they're the same story. What else is different? Tell me, what else. They both have caring parents that sent him away to Earth so he can survive and thrive before their planet's impending doom. These are not surface-level similarities, like the ones you could attribute to Goku's original backstory; this is a 1:1 copy.

A.) The Galactic Patrol. A fairly new and introduced concept at least from the perspective of a Dragonball fan that does not follow all of Akira Toriyama’s work. If you already know about it then sure, but this is... a backstory an explanation of how we got towards events A to B. Give me an idea of how this is “pointless” and this not considering that this explains where they were during the events of the show.

Wrong. Dragon Ball Minus is not its own self-contained story. Dragon Ball Minus is the last chapter of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. If you read DB Minus, then chances are, unless you're pirating it (since the only way you can legally read Minus is by buying a copy of Jaco), that you've read the previous 12 chapters of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. So yes, it's objectively pointless to be reiterating in 2 pages at the start of Minus what we've already seen and have known for an entire volume.

You are telling me no one was curious as to where Vegeta and Raditz were during all these events? If not already before... especially the ones that would screech PLOTHOLE if the panel was not shown to the context of “All the Saiyans were called to gather back to planet Vegeta” not to say it really was a plothole that much in the first place. But let’s consider that a perspective.

Vegeta and Raditz could have been mentioned during dialogue or exposition. Nobody would call it a plothole just like nobody ever called Raditz not being in the Bardock special a plothole, for example.

C.) So you’re telling me no fan is curious of... if and when Freeza finally decides to get rid of the saiyans once and for all and his thoughts? As well if he is informed on the SSJG? Hell ESPECIALLY the SSJG since there was no mention of it prior BOG, this gives it more build-up and context.

I'm saying that if Toriyama wanted to show Freeza's thoughts, then he should have shown Freeza making that decision on his own. We don't see Freeza making any decision. He has already decided, when the story starts, that he's going to destroy the Saiyans. We ALREADY KNOW he's going to destroy the Saiyans. What is less conclusive is WHY he wants to destroy them, what events made him believe the Saiyans were a threat to begin with.

There's no "build-up" or "context." It makes no sense that Freeza knows it, considering Vegeta and Kaio don't know what the fuck SSG is, and Battle of Gods had already aired by the time this movie came out, so it's a pointless tie-in to the movie at best.

So you are saying... that since we already know it we shouldn’t dive into it or give context to it since we already know it happens in the main story?

So... you are saying you don’t like backstory in the first place? because that’s what backstory is. Hell the entire destruction of Planet Vegeta (something that happens in both The Special and Minus) is fucking backstory we already know the events of the destruction of Planet Vegeta in the first place so do you or do you not like backstory in the first place my dude...? moving on...

I legitimately don't understand if you're misunderstanding what I'm saying on purpose at this point. No, I didn't say we shouldn't give context to something we know happens in the main story. I'm saying Minus doesn't provide ANY context to ANY of the actions that led to the genocide of the Saiyans. We don't get to see how Freeza came to his decision; we don't get to see what kind of relationship Vegeta and Freeza have; we don't get to see how Bardock rebelled against Freeza; we don't get to see how Freeza blew up the planet; we don't get to see how the remaining Saiyans reacted to the news. These are the kinds of aspects a backstory about the Saiyans should focus on (and unsurprisingly, and I'm gonna mention it here because you keep mentioning it also, the Bardock Special addressed all this) considering these are all the events that have major repercussions in the main story.

This "backstory" shows two new things: Gine, who is poorly characterized and has no role in the plot considering Bardock does everything himself, and how Goku escaped planet Vegeta, which, as we've established already, in the way Minus executes this plot point, changes drastically for the worse the way we read the Saiyan arc.

3.) As long as you bring up how Bardock being “special” in Minus being a negative point against it, the more I’m going to bring it up in Minus. This conversation already devolved into Minus vs The Bardock Special so lets get it over with.

It has devolved into that because of you.

First, you say you want to judge Minus on its own merits while ignoring the TV special.
Then, I claim that Bardock being so unique and special undermines a lot of the Saiyan arc's major themes.
So you bring up the TV Special, contradicting your original premise, and claim it does the same thing, and claim I have double standards if I don't agree.
I agree.
You... keep bringing up the TV Special and arguing I have double standards.

I want to say this is clear to any observer here that you're not interested in having your opinion challenged if this is the approach you're having to discussion. Still, it's surprising to see someone who "prefers" the TV Special arguing so viciously in favor of Minus while throwing the TV special under the bus at any chance, even when it's not even being discussed. Really shows that lack of bias you were talking about, and how this thread lacks any kind of agenda whatsoever. We CAN turn this discussion into a full-blown TV special vs Minus thread, but not only would that go against your original intention, I fear it wouldn't go very well for you considering how easy it is to argue that the TV special is better outside of that one area where they both fuck up; but, of course, someone who "prefers" the TV special and thinks "that isn’t a surprise considering the room it has for the intricacies it has" would be able to see that this is the case and would most likely try to avoid claiming Minus is better so frequently in fear of contradicting themselves.

[Master Xar]

1.) I never said that someone “forced” him to. I’m saying he WANTED to. Where did you even come from with this?

Stop being obtuse. I'm saying the page number is no excuse for poor storytelling.

Wow. You are actually more of a follower than I thought.

Sharing an opinion with someone else is not being a follower. Especially since you're no special snowflake yourself, and every excuse you're throwing around in this thread has been said by countless other people before. Newsflash, most opinions aren't completely unique; it doesn't mean they're not your own.

Every page shot or shot in any work serves a purpose or has a reasoning behind it, you have to find meaning behind it yourself is the job. And you basically blindly repeated what Gaffer said. This already said even without saying since you follow his opinion that even beforehand you had a bias for The Bardock Special yeah? Proves my point that people came in here with a bias without even saying it...

How, pray tell, can I have a bias for the Bardock special when I've argued that the Bardock special makes the same mistakes and I've been trying to argue how Minus is bad without comparing it to the Bardock special, which is what YOU WANTED FROM THE START (and have been conveniently ignoring since, by continuously bringing up the Bardock special).

Am I being taken for a ride? I can't believe I'm having this conversation right now.

1.) Yes. And that’s the point.

That's the point? The point is that Bardock is one-note and uninteresting? The point is that Bardock is poorly characterized; that's, in essence, what you're saying. If this is the case, then I don't know what you're arguing for. You're saying that Minus is BAD on PURPOSE.

which is better for the Saiyan Saga’s themes.

It's better than what? Is it better than the Bardock special? If so, then I again reiterate that I don't give a shit if it's better or not because YOU keep ignoring your own rule and bringing up the Bardock special time and time again. You're not saying "it's not bad," what you're saying is "at least it's better than the TV Special," which doesn't help your argument at all considering that's just moving the goalpost rather than addressing the argument being presented to you.

If it's better in the sense that it enhances the Saiyan arc somehow, then you're gonna have to elaborate on this point because I don't see how Bardock being kind and loving his family improves the way we read the Saiyan arc.

Outside of his parents caring for him and being the one’s to send him off-planet they literally couldn’t be any more different.

Your description proves that they're the same story. What else is different? Tell me, what else. They both have caring parents that sent him away to Earth so he can survive and thrive before their planet's impending doom. These are not surface-level similarities, like the ones you could attribute to Goku's original backstory; this is a 1:1 copy.

A.) The Galactic Patrol. A fairly new and introduced concept at least from the perspective of a Dragonball fan that does not follow all of Akira Toriyama’s work. If you already know about it then sure, but this is... a backstory an explanation of how we got towards events A to B. Give me an idea of how this is “pointless” and this not considering that this explains where they were during the events of the show.

Wrong. Dragon Ball Minus is not its own self-contained story. Dragon Ball Minus is the last chapter of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. If you read DB Minus, then chances are, unless you're pirating it (since the only way you can legally read Minus is by buying a copy of Jaco), that you've read the previous 12 chapters of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. So yes, it's objectively pointless to be reiterating in 2 pages at the start of Minus what we've already seen and have known for an entire volume.

You are telling me no one was curious as to where Vegeta and Raditz were during all these events? If not already before... especially the ones that would screech PLOTHOLE if the panel was not shown to the context of “All the Saiyans were called to gather back to planet Vegeta” not to say it really was a plothole that much in the first place. But let’s consider that a perspective.

Vegeta and Raditz could have been mentioned during dialogue or exposition. Nobody would call it a plothole just like nobody ever called Raditz not being in the Bardock special a plothole, for example.

C.) So you’re telling me no fan is curious of... if and when Freeza finally decides to get rid of the saiyans once and for all and his thoughts? As well if he is informed on the SSJG? Hell ESPECIALLY the SSJG since there was no mention of it prior BOG, this gives it more build-up and context.

I'm saying that if Toriyama wanted to show Freeza's thoughts, then he should have shown Freeza making that decision on his own. We don't see Freeza making any decision. He has already decided, when the story starts, that he's going to destroy the Saiyans. We ALREADY KNOW he's going to destroy the Saiyans. What is less conclusive is WHY he wants to destroy them, what events made him believe the Saiyans were a threat to begin with.

There's no "build-up" or "context." It makes no sense that Freeza knows it, considering Vegeta and Kaio don't know what the fuck SSG is, and Battle of Gods had already aired by the time this movie came out, so it's a pointless tie-in to the movie at best.

So you are saying... that since we already know it we shouldn’t dive into it or give context to it since we already know it happens in the main story?

So... you are saying you don’t like backstory in the first place? because that’s what backstory is. Hell the entire destruction of Planet Vegeta (something that happens in both The Special and Minus) is fucking backstory we already know the events of the destruction of Planet Vegeta in the first place so do you or do you not like backstory in the first place my dude...? moving on...

I legitimately don't understand if you're misunderstanding what I'm saying on purpose at this point. No, I didn't say we shouldn't give context to something we know happens in the main story. I'm saying Minus doesn't provide ANY context to ANY of the actions that led to the genocide of the Saiyans. We don't get to see how Freeza came to his decision; we don't get to see what kind of relationship Vegeta and Freeza have; we don't get to see how Bardock rebelled against Freeza; we don't get to see how Freeza blew up the planet; we don't get to see how the remaining Saiyans reacted to the news. These are the kinds of aspects a backstory about the Saiyans should focus on (and unsurprisingly, and I'm gonna mention it here because you keep mentioning it also, the Bardock Special addressed all this) considering these are all the events that have major repercussions in the main story.

This "backstory" shows two new things: Gine, who is poorly characterized and has no role in the plot considering Bardock does everything himself, and how Goku escaped planet Vegeta, which, as we've established already, in the way Minus executes this plot point, changes drastically for the worse the way we read the Saiyan arc.

3.) As long as you bring up how Bardock being “special” in Minus being a negative point against it, the more I’m going to bring it up in Minus. This conversation already devolved into Minus vs The Bardock Special so lets get it over with.

It has devolved into that because of you.

First, you say you want to judge Minus on its own merits while ignoring the TV special.
Then, I claim that Bardock being so unique and special undermines a lot of the Saiyan arc's major themes.
So you bring up the TV Special, contradicting your original premise, and claim it does the same thing, and claim I have double standards if I don't agree.
I agree.
You... keep bringing up the TV Special and arguing I have double standards.

I want to say this is clear to any observer here that you're not interested in having your opinion challenged if this is the approach you're having to discussion. Still, it's surprising to see someone who "prefers" the TV Special arguing so viciously in favor of Minus while throwing the TV special under the bus at any chance, even when it's not even being discussed. Really shows that lack of bias you were talking about, and how this thread lacks any kind of agenda whatsoever. We CAN turn this discussion into a full-blown TV special vs Minus thread, but not only would that go against your original intention, I fear it wouldn't go very well for you considering how easy it is to argue that the TV special is better outside of that one area where they both fuck up; but, of course, someone who "prefers" the TV special and thinks "that isn’t a surprise considering the room it has for the intricacies it has" would be able to see that this is the case and would most likely try to avoid claiming Minus is better so frequently in fear of contradicting themselves.

1.) because there clearly is a plot Bardock is comfortable with his life, compromises by the conflict of Freeza destroying it and the other Saiyans as he figures this out, he and Gine then have the goal of at least getting their Son off the planet, and the story ends, we know the somewhat of the rest from Freeza’d description of Goku’s father. The rest of what I said is shown to give the backstory context, who, what, when, where, and how or what we know from the present story and what the story doesn’t show us, is simply that. It doesn’t show us because it is a 15 page story. It doesn’t make it any more or less a story than The Bardock Special. It is just a simpler, more condensed story.


2.) and that is what the story can and cannot show is in the 15 pages. They don’t have the same careers as that’s what the story shows us. They don’t have the same circumstances to send their children off planet, they aren’t that similar in personality outside of caring for their kids. Killing people is already a telling sign that they are not “good people” they just give a shit about their family. Toriyama even confirms this that Bardock is only slightly more humane than the rest of the saiyans.
As far as Gine being a housewife. So? Is there a problem with that? That’s her life and as we can see there are multiple other saiyan women who work there too “generic housewife” isn’t an objective criticism. It is a legitimate career as far as saiyan women go as what the panel conveys when we see her do her job.
The Saiyans are far less sophisticated, cultured, and mannered than Kryptonians from what we see of the Planet. They hold more Conservative values.

What is not to say that they couldn’t be any more different?

3.) Yes. I know that. But there is very clearly people who aren’t going to read the rest and are just here for Dragonball Minus for the title sake whether that be pirating, telling from a friend, looking at a review, etc. And even then it still serves a point. Showing where The Galactic Patrol is anyways still is an objective choice by Toriyama. To show what it is that they were doing during the events during Planet Vegeta’s destruction. It serves a point and is an intent, thus it isn’t objectively bad it doesn’t fail to consistently show or tell or is inconsistent with the universe. You think it’s bad because you don’t think it serves a point, when it does, you have to find out that point for yourself .

4.) Yeah but guess what? Toriyama chose to show it in a panel as opposed to telling it in a dialogue and exposition, which is boring and a slog to get through in my opinion. That’s just how storytelling works dude, he conveyed it through his artwork. That still isn’t an objective criticism. You just want to rush through it with exposition because you think it’s pointless, and I never said it was a plothole to me personally as we already discussed this earlier. I’m just saying.

5.) Yes we already see how he is coming to that decision. It just went right over your head. A character’s actions and words give them away. Freeza is clearly getting more paranoid from the information gathered on the Saiyans we can infer that he had just heard of the legend of the SSJG through some sort of method or word of mouth somewhere recently as now he is coming to the decision and with how he is informed on the SSJ legend later down the line the the Namek Saga, he has found out about more than one legend. We can infer from what the story is telling and showing us how Freeza came to that decision without being fucking obvious about it dude. He is getting more and more paranoid as he is finding out more legends as the story progresses.

Just like the SSJ legend we can infer he researched it or found out about it through some unknown means, does it have to show you? Or are you simply not going to bother looking into what the story presented is trying to convey/imply to you through what it already shows you and tells you about Freeza? Just because Vegeta and Kaio don’t know about it doesn’t mean the legend doesn’t exist dude.

6.) I already provided insight on why and how Freeza came to his decision above, but I’ll have to simplify what you say here into one point.

More Story/Context =/= better story/better context.
Just because it doesn’t show or tell of any of what you just said doesn’t make it a better or worse story. It is completely subjective that you want the story to show and tell you what you wanted to tell, but since it doesn’t the story is somehow “worse” for that.

You look at what the story itself presents and base an opinion off what you see and the meaning behind what you see, and assume or use your imagination of what you don’t see. Not what you wanted to see in the first place. That’s not what you judge a story on.


7.) I already told you what my intent was. I encouraged others to look at what Minus presents from an unbiased standpoint with no prior criticisms that weren’t already present in The Bardock Special itself (The “Special” thing, the “generic”, etc.) and look at it with clear eyes as if seeing it for the first time. But as the thread went on I had to accentuate my point more and more as the double standards presented themselves hell I still doubt that you yourself were looking at Minus for what it was and were just repeating what everyone else was saying. Since Minus is unpopular, disliked, and the second to the original interpretation, I already know it’s going to have biases. Yours and many that I’ve seen in this thread are clear.

It devolved because my point was clearly going over everyone else’s head. Including yours.

A.) You only did so after I said it quit trying to frame it like you already had that in mind, I’m not a idiot dude, you aren’t going to pull that shit on me. You only offered that criticism because it was already popular in saying it with Minus dude. Nice Try.

B.) because you do dude. It’s clearly obvious that you didn’t acknowledge these “double standards” until I said it and then you backpedalled with “your intent” of looking at Minus unbiased just because I stop those criticisms in their tracks by showing how they’re the same as The Bardock Special. You try to use “my intent” (which I already clarified before you backpedalled) to not only excuse to “your intent” against me, but to also gain a moral high ground: to argue I’m a hypocrite when I already clarified to you my reason and intent. Nice try.

I’m going to ignore the rest of this since this is just another “moral high ground” attempt.

But for anyone else listening or reading this. Yes. I’m playing devil’s advocate here and arguing for Minus’ sake as I feel it gets an unfair rap and looking at how popular Gaffer/Mistare’s video is among the community as I’m reading here. I’m simply highlighting the double standards here. I’d have argued just as hard if not more so for anyone saying The Bardock Special is “badly written” when it isn’t either. I really don’t like Minus changes myself, but it isn’t bad objectively for what it does, every page has a meaning to me and I understand what Toriyama is trying to convey even if I don’t like it personally.

[VegettoEX]

The OP is clearly not interested in arguing in good faith. Everyone else seems to be having a meaningful discussion without him; maybe it'd be best to just ignore him at this point.

This is a correct analysis.

The original poster came in from their very first post looking to have their opinion validated back at them. Various other members have extended every conceivable explanation, viewpoint, opinion, analysis, etc. not to "shut down" the discussion, but rather in an attempt to have a worthwhile conversation where opinions may be heard and understood, even if not agreed upon. Thank you for all of your work in looking to have a reasonable, open, honest discussion. You do a wonderful job representing what Kanzenshuu is all about.