Goku's New Form in Daima!

[pepd]

Will suspent the judgement until we get an explanation as to wtf actually is this form lore-wise, really hope we get one. It also looks too similar to the drawing Toriyama made of SS4, I can picture corporate pushing SS4 inclusion and Tori saying yeahsure but make him red or something lol Heck, I wouldn´t be surprised if they just added it like with Broly´s green SS and we don´t get any explanation. And yeaah.. I guess there are visual hints that it´s an evolution from SS3 with something Ozaru related, but still, please at least someone acknoledge it in-universe, I mean is a new transformation say something! ask wtf happened! Goku, Vegeta! explain him what you just did to him, Neva!

Eitherway, guess is canon now, at least the design, and even if they give him a new official name, people will simply refer to it as SS4 or "canon SS4". Can´t help but sigh at all the mental breakdowns of adults over validation of a cartoon that it will provoque in all DB spaces. I too would´ve prefered a new demon related form or something new, but it is what it is. Actually, would have prefered the embracement of SS1 as a superior form in place of SS3 for the stress, you know, what Toriyama mentioned in BoG.

Apart form that tho, the transformation animation was cool and it was fun to watch fight the little monkey (wish they used the pole tho, for something more refreshing and wink to Monkey King, but I guess it would diverge from GT nostalgia)

[Hugo Boss]

Man, I completely misread where they were going with this. I really thought the magical staff’s return meant Goku’s new form would be something entirely different. But nope, we got SS4 in all but name. At this point, it’s clear they were more interested in paying tribute to GT. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I was expecting something new rather than a repackage of a well established form.

[AliTheZombie13]

Man, I completely misread where they were going with this. I really thought the magical staff’s return meant Goku’s new form would be something entirely different. But nope, we got SS4 in all but name. At this point, it’s clear they were more interested in paying tribute to GT. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I was expecting something new rather than a repackage of a well established form.

I was expecting some sort of Lood with the age-sucking machine thing, expecting Pansy to grow a spine and become a great hero, expecting her to grow a meaningful connection with Goku, expecting Glorio to become conflicted with his loyalties sooner and him actually betraying the team, much like Giru initially seemed to do, and the final 10 episodes to be something like the M2 arc, expecting it all to be some sort of master plan for him to stab Arinsu in the back, expecting all of this to pay off masterfully in the form of Super Saiyan 4.

Yes, I'm aware, I have nobody to blame but myself for hyping myself up with such high expectations.
But damn, they had "GT but well executed" in the bag and chose not to do it.

[Hulk10]

...Yeah. Thanks but no thanks, Daima, I'll stick to the real Super Saiyan 4 from GT.

We're now at least three for three on Toriyama co-opting cool things that he didn't originally make and somehow managing to downgrade them. The worst example was of course "nice guy" nuBardock in Minus, less sharply followed by "don't hug me I'm scared" nuBroli, and now it's happened again with fugly, kid-sized nu-SS4 in Daima.

And the worst part is, just like Bardock and Broli, there's going to be a swarm of folks in the fandom (mostly elsewhere) running around loudly declaring that this subpar "c~A~n~O~n" version of SS4 is the only one that's "real" or matters at all.

The only way I could see this being salvaged is if the following episode(s?) reveal that this magically-granted version of SS4 is just a temporary, halfway-realized version of a true transformation that Goku simply isn't strong enough to use for real yet, or something like that. But I know better at this point than to give modern DB that much credit.

Me too. I prefer the real SSJ4. Its cool and its powerful enough to go against god forms.

[dbs fanboy]

Honestly I was hoping he looked like that Ssj5 fan art, I would have laughed, maybe if he fuses with Glorio.....

Anyway I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said before GT did it better, duh. Actually rewatch the fight with Baby right after haha.

I kinda see it the same way as ssj3 3 Vegeta, it's just a cool flashy moment so whatevs. It was entertaining.

Honestly I was more excited with Broly's Ikari (seriously stop slandering my boi) he had an interesting look. And I would have preferred if a pseudo full ssj 4 look was introduced later in the timeline but we will never escape midquel hell.

[BernardoCairo]

Honestly I was more excited with Broly's Ikari

Now that I think about it, using Broly and his Ikari power might be the only way to reuse this form later in Dragon Ball Super's story and have it make sense. But even then, Broly is more focused on perfecting Super Saiyan right now...

Also, I wonder if there's any original Toriyama art for this form somewhere. That particular side shot of the transformation looks so much like his Super Saiyajin 4 version it's crazy. Anyway, I hope one day they share this design with us.

[Almighty Majin]

I am getting the idea that this new form, Gohan Beast, and Orange Piccolo are all the same form in essence. What I mean is a limit breaking form that is unlocked via some form of Demon Realm magic and one's potential drawn to its limits.

Piccolo had his potential unlocked by Shenron, but also received "something extra." A limit breaking power beyond the limits of said drawn out power, an awakening.

Gohan had his potential unlocked by both Guru and later Old Kai. Beast is the manifestation of his inner rage brought fully to the surface, the awakening of his true power beyond his base potential drawn to its limits.

Goku had his potential unlocked by the Ultra Divine Water, SSJ3 is described as being a form that draws out Saiyan power to its utmost limits, Neva's magic just managed to break those limits and bring Goku's power to a brand new frontier.

Also, all 3 forms share the same red eyes and Goku's new form has a similar intense orange aura like Orange Piccolo.

[Basaku]

I do like how the colours are much more in line with beautiful Super Saiyan God.

The color is literally the reason I now like God form more and don't have that much issues with SSJ4's hair color change. For the canon/main timeline in Daima, set right before BOG, it just works on so many levels:
- extends the 'red era' alltogether after Blue ended it too fast,
- nicely contrasts a demonic Saiyan powerup with a godly Saiyan powerup, retroactively making even the skinny SSG design work better in comparsion to animalistic SSJ4
- is unmistekably SSJ4 design that people loved while making it fit better into the canon/main Super continuity
- even if people keep using the old SSJ4 name it flows nice being set between SSJ3 and God now, instead of post-EOZ

I cannot believe I can now say something nice about the SSG design. GOOD choice on Toriyama's part on the hair color change for SSJ4. While on its own, I prefer GT's design, for Super era the red hair works better and ties visually wirh God so well

[Jord]

I really would have liked to be in the room when Toriyama proposed this idea.
"And then, they use magic and Goku turns into chibi SSJ4! without buildup"
-"Brilliant, Toriyama-sama. What an amazing idea for this exciting anime. You're a genius!"

[dbs fanboy]

I really would have liked to be in the room when Toriyama proposed this idea.
"And then, they use magic and Goku turns into chibi SSJ4! without buildup"
-"Brilliant, Toriyama-sama. What an amazing idea for this exciting anime. You're a genius!"

Sometimes I wonder if all the Toriyama contributed too was mainly Lore and world building.

Not to detract from his involvement but besides the Lore that actually clearly has a lot of work put into it, everything else is as "Bullet point" as Super was.

[Basaku]

I really would have liked to be in the room when Toriyama proposed this idea.
"And then, they use magic and Goku turns into chibi SSJ4! without buildup"
-"Brilliant, Toriyama-sama. What an amazing idea for this exciting anime. You're a genius!"

Sometimes I wonder if all the Toriyama contributed too was mainly Lore and world building.

Not to detract from his involvement but besides the Lore that actually clearly has a lot of work put into it, everything else is as "Bullet point" as Super was.

It just shows how persuasive Iyoku is, he got Toriyama to redo canonically all that his analytics found to be popular heh

[Yuji]

The bigger hands are growing on me after seeing him run on the rocks. If the form returns in the future, then I'd like to see those primal aspects more prominently featured. I don't understand why the fur stops at the forearm though and why his hair is pink, not a fan.

[LightBing]

I really would have liked to be in the room when Toriyama proposed this idea.
"And then, they use magic and Goku turns into chibi SSJ4! without buildup"
-"Brilliant, Toriyama-sama. What an amazing idea for this exciting anime. You're a genius!"

Sometimes I wonder if all the Toriyama contributed too was mainly Lore and world building.

Not to detract from his involvement but besides the Lore that actually clearly has a lot of work put into it, everything else is as "Bullet point" as Super was.

It feels like in general Toriyama's involvement is greatly exaggerated.

Compare to something like SSG which had plot, with Pan's reveal and some character reflection with Goku saying he didn't like how he obtained such strength.
This in BoG which supposedly Toriyama heavily rewrote the original script.

Certainly in Daima Toriyama wasn't writing scripts for every episode.

The bigger hands are growing on me after seeing him run on the rocks. If the form returns in the future, then I'd like to see those primal aspects more prominently featured. I don't understand why the fur stops at the forearm though and why his hair is pink, not a fan.

It's details like those that give some charm and personality, instead of just SSJ4 2.0.
Still don't like tho.

[TheMikado]

Honestly I was hoping he looked like that Ssj5 fan art, I would have laughed, maybe if he fuses with Glorio.....

Anyway I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said before GT did it better, duh. Actually rewatch the fight with Baby right after haha.

I kinda see it the same way as ssj3 3 Vegeta, it's just a cool flashy moment so whatevs. It was entertaining.

Honestly I was more excited with Broly's Ikari (seriously stop slandering my boi) he had an interesting look. And I would have preferred if a pseudo full ssj 4 look was introduced later in the timeline but we will never escape midquel hell.

All we need is for them to do this: https://ultradragonball.fandom.com/wiki ... a_Instinct

[TheMikado]

I really would have liked to be in the room when Toriyama proposed this idea.
"And then, they use magic and Goku turns into chibi SSJ4! without buildup"
-"Brilliant, Toriyama-sama. What an amazing idea for this exciting anime. You're a genius!"

Sometimes I wonder if all the Toriyama contributed too was mainly Lore and world building.

Not to detract from his involvement but besides the Lore that actually clearly has a lot of work put into it, everything else is as "Bullet point" as Super was.

It feels like in general Toriyama's involvement is greatly exaggerated.

Compare to something like SSG which had plot, with Pan's reveal and some character reflection with Goku saying he didn't like how he obtained such strength.
This in BoG which supposedly Toriyama heavily rewrote the original script.

Certainly in Daima Toriyama wasn't writing scripts for every episode.

The bigger hands are growing on me after seeing him run on the rocks. If the form returns in the future, then I'd like to see those primal aspects more prominently featured. I don't understand why the fur stops at the forearm though and why his hair is pink, not a fan.

It's details like those that give some charm and personality, instead of just SSJ4 2.0.
Still don't like tho.

Why is the immediate reaction to downplay Toriyama’s involvement because it’s bad? He’s very capable of poor choices and bad material, just read some of the interviews about the changes his editors had him make.

[LightBing]

Why is the immediate reaction to downplay Toriyama’s involvement because it’s bad? He’s very capable of poor choices and bad material, just read some of the interviews about the changes his editors had him make.

Not downplaying anything. Just analyzing details to ascertain the influence since Toriyama style is easy to spot.

Not everything is freaking black and white. I can recognize strengths of writers and weaknesses. I'm discussing the topic at hand not defending or attacking any writer/producer, specially when it's all freaking Dragon Ball.

I'm still positive on Daima besides thinking Toriyama contributions are mostly bullet points. Not even pilling on the show.

There's things I think he would greatly improve like how battles are written and others it would be worse, like specific character moments for example Panzy being released from her collar.

Redoing SSJ4 is just uninspired and stretches to everyone involved be it Toriyama or everyone else.

[Yuji]

It's details like those that give some charm and personality, instead of just SSJ4 2.0.
Still don't like tho.

Yeah, still not a fan of the redesign. The gorilla run could have been incorporated while keeping the original design, no need to change other features. This transformation rings even more hollow when it lacks narrative significance or thematic depth like the original.

I've seen some people theorize they'll connect it to the divine forms because it's the same magenta tone as God, but I think that's just cope or wishful thinking. They're just as likely to connect Gomah to Jiren.

[Kid Goku X Shenron]

First of all hi everyone Been reading this forum for years and the discussions have been mostly mature and respectful.

Anyone else felt conflicted ? In the moment I was incredibly excited. I wanted SSJ4 to be canon just so the hordes of people could stop with the ''It's not canon !'' rhetoric whenever SSJ4 is mentioned lol. In terms of design for me SSJ4>UI>SSJ and I have seen some people say SSJ4 makes the least sense out of all in relation to Dragon Ball and I'm honestly perplexed by that opinion. To me UI and SSJ4 are the best because they make more sense than all the other SS transformations. UI because it directly connects Goku to his martial artist roots, even as a child he was training with Popo how to anticipate your surroundings which wasn't named UI but it pretty much followed the same teachings. So seeing that technique manifest itself decades later through Goku's martial arts journey to me makes perfect sense even if him falling in a black hole and getting it that way didn't make much sense. It wasn't another typical I got angry and got a new transformation or an asspull transformation as the kids would call it these days that just popped up which unfortunately ever since Super ended reached insane levels with Gohan, Piccolo, Vegeta, Broly etc. (Daima deserves the smoke with this too btw in how Goku got this version of SSJ4). And SSJ4 makes the most sense imo because this transformation directly ties into the Saiyan roots. That's more storytelling in a transformation than all the other SSJ transformations combined. No weird hair colors, he looks like a primal Saiyan animal in that form. Plus the golden Oozaro before that. It isn't just SSJ1/2/3 they got angry and got a new yellow hair color with big hair. He has a tail, his body looks more animalistic, his characteristics have also changed. Goku in SSJ4 literally punched a hole in Ice murdered him in cold blood and proceeded to dragon fist his dead corpse lol. Saiyans are a scary genocidal race and this was the first and only time Goku actually scared me as a viewer for a brief moment. I haven't felt anything like that in the past 20 years. For the record I think GT has many flaws they had a great design and some short really amazing moments but the execution failed. They made SSJ4 look weak in the end. But hey at least Vegeta had a proper personality back then, the ending was fantastic, the song iconic and SSJ4 was genuinely beloved more so than most transformations. Even if you personally don't like it there's no denying how popular it is.

Getting back to Daima though. I was so happy and giddy when I saw the hair turn black. It felt like it was black in a split second. I was like that meme of the guy running to the fridge in excitement and as soon as he opened the fridge you saw the disappointment lol. That was me. I am grateful to the GOAT Toriyama for making SSJ4 canon. But man oh man why did he have to be different. The original design was already perfection. Why do weird things. I'm fine with the walking on all 4s like an animal but why oh why did you have to make the hair weird purple/pink/red. Why are his eyebrows same. Why not keep the pupil orange/black. I really hate being critical cause I feel like a rude person which I hate but it's ironic that the 1 time Toriyama wasn't really involved is when we got better content in some regards than the past 20 years. A non-Toriyama designed transformations is superior to a Toriyama designed transformation. I am grateful that Toriyama made this canon and it's also unfair to him because he's going against an already perfect SSJ4 design. He wanted to be slightly different. I respect it. Unfortunately this is one of those cases where he should have just said I'm gonna respect the OG design and keep it as it is. OP made some really good points. This could have been perfection if it tied into Son Wukong if they added the power pole into the mix. The power pole could have been the catalyst for this transformation which would tie in lovely to Son Wukong and Goku. I think another thing that's affecting the perception of this transformation is the chibi sizes. I genuinely hope this is not the last we see of SSJ4 Goku. And when people say ''THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE WHY DIDN'T HE DO IT IN SUPER'' come on you're watching DB. None of this makes sense. Z had many many plot holes. This is one of those shows you just turn your brain off and look at the pretty colors and cool battle scenes. The writing might not be top tier or even mid tier but lets be real. I watch a lot of anime (Naruto is the only one left I need to start that too heard good things) but 30 years later I have yet to see cool badass anime moments like DB. None of those fight scenes come close. I just hope in the future we can have some great writing as well. If Toyotaro fails (I hope he succeeds) then I hope Toei or whoever has the power brings in great writers and let Toyotaro just draw the stories and give suggestions instead of having full control over writing as well. I don't know much about Toyotaro besides AF and I hope he doesn't bring that edgy soulless feel to DB with just random transformations that make no sense. We need to go back to rich characters and stories instead of drawn out battle arcs. That requires a great writer though. Toriyama used to do it well in OG DB. I was hoping Daima would be that. But to me it seems Toriyama lost his magic touch or stopped caring. Not his fault when you do something long enough you will eventually lose that touch. He's still the GOAT manga artist 40 years later imo. No one can draw like him, not even close. His is so unique even 40 years later when everyone elses looks kinda the same.I watched so many anime and I get dejavu so many times haha these characters all look a like except One Piece and a few others but I genuinely hate One Pieces drawing style.

Please please please don't let Daima end with yet another fusion. This is another thing that's ruining DB for me. How many fusions will this be with the last few arcs combined. I was already tired with it with Broly movie now again ? Let Piccolo handle it or Duu/Kuu bois anyone but fusion. Am I the only one who hates fusion ? It goes against everything DB stands for or stood for. To me attaining SSG through help of others is the same as fusion. Goku hated that. Fusion is essentially cheating you're ganging up on someone it goes against everything a true martial artist like Goku stands for. Plus it makes it annoyingly predictable. This is also another thing thats ruining Daima for me. It's hard to be excited for a show from the start when they already tell you what's about to happen. Once fusion pops up its over. You know how its going to end.

I will forever love DB and I'm not one of those people that wished DB ended at its peak. I saw a child a few years ago that was seriously ill in the hospital watching Goku gather energy from everyone and this kid stood up sick and raised his hands too. I got very emotional. DB despite its many flaws helps so many people in life. It should always exist but it should also be treated with more care and passion. And if you're one of those people that wanted it to end a long time ago, here's a solution. Stop watching. Problem solved.

Sorry for the long rant. And sorry for certain paragraphs going a bit off topic.

[LightBing]

It's details like those that give some charm and personality, instead of just SSJ4 2.0.
Still don't like tho.

Yeah, still not a fan of the redesign. The gorilla run could have been incorporated while keeping the original design, no need to change other features. This transformation rings even more hollow when it lacks narrative significance or thematic depth like the original.

I've seen some people theorize they'll connect it to the divine forms because it's the same magenta tone as God, but I think that's just cope or wishful thinking. They're just as likely to connect Gomah to Jiren.

Yeah those theories are far fetched. Nothing about the general design connects to the "God" design, it's more opposite than anything.
Going by the episode title and transformation sequence, it appears to call out to the Oozaru nature, something primordial.

[Jmass97]

We’ve been given ssj4, a form that most everyone wanted to become canon and we still have people complaining lol can’t please everyone I guess. Personally I don’t mind how we got the form. I theorized that something like this would happen given the Namekians have knowledge of saiyan lore and what not. I’ve always wanted ssj4 to become canon as well as a white haired saiyan form and the legendary form to be in the main series and we have that and then some. With dragon ball continuing on for a while, they can take the dragon ball franchise anywhere at this point. I’m just happy we have these things since I would have never imagined they’d be penned by Toriyama as a kid. Some people focus too much on the negatives and seem like they don’t like anything tbh. It’s okay to voice opinions whether good or bad but some people just seem to bash for the sake of bashing. It’s a fictional story…it’s only so deep.