An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Gozar
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Post by Gozar » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:28 am

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Respectfully, I disagree. Take this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt5Z54L6efo

Now, replace it with circus music (In your head, I'm not actually going to redub it ). Sure, the characters don't hear it, but it changes the tone of the scene, no?
When you say "Circus Music" I take it that you do not literally mean the Faulconer track titled "Circus Music"...But depending on which Faulconer tracks chosen some could suit this scene decently.
Eh, Goku still gives speeches later on. I know he goes on a long, drawn out speech about how he and Vejita have to fuse later in the series (I didn't watch the series much past Majin Vejita so I don't remember any other occurances). Besides, when Japanese Goku gives anything resembling a speech, it tends to be...well, Goku-ish. It's not very articulate and while it's sincere, it's...chock full of mountain-raised goodness?
Oh yes there's a very Dub-centric quote given during the Pre-Fusion. Though to be fair is is FAR better written. But what I was trying to say was that FUNi toned it down for the most part later on. Then we get that, lol. Though as far as the Dub goes, I love the dialogue.
Well, both Gokus like to fight, that's a given. However, they definitely did shift the emphasis on Goku's personality from a naive, childlike man who loves to fight to a Superman-like persona who fights to save the world.
Agreed to a degree. Like I said before, this is undeniably true. But like with the speeches, it gets toned down later on. Namek/Freeza Era Goku is definitely written very suuper hero-esque.
As a result, however, they made Vejita (and everyone else) much more 2D. Sure, DragonBall isn't the best example of well-rounded characters, however FUNimation took characters with some great attributes and chose a single trait to focus on while ignoring the others. Goku is the hero guy (ed. note: lawl, you is the hero guy! ), Piccolo is the big scary guy, Vejita is the angry guy, Gohan is the innocent kid/guy, Krillin is the bumbling sidekick, Bulma and Chi-Chi are the raging sacks of hormones, Nappa and Reacoom are the big dumb muscleheads...etc.
Again, I'm inclined to agree to a point. I don't think all of the dimensions are lost in the Dub. Definitely less dimensional. I'd say especially on Piccolo's part. But Vegeta I think still retains a decent amount of depth to his character even though they focus more on the anger. Kunzait gave a prime example of the Dub doing Vegeta wrong with the scene when Freeza & Cold are arriving.
He says it many, many times in the original. Freeza is basically killing him and one of the thoughts to go through his head as he is dying is that he'll never get married if memory serves. So, obviously it's an important part of his character which comes into play massively when the Jinzoningen come into the picture.
You mean the impalement scene? I'm too lazy to check the Anime, but it was not in the Manga. So Toriyama clearly wasn't bringing it to the point where it's what he thought about at death. Though you've actually opened up my eyes to a point I overlooked. The whole reasoning behind the Jinzoningen Arc stuff. The Dub would make Kuririn's reaction seem more random. While with the Original you can go back and see his personality. I totally did not even think of that. Though I don't think he was fully thinking with his "man part" when deciding not to kill 18. Had she clearly been more evil I believe he would have done what was needed. But he's clearly the character who sees that the Jinzoningen are not pure evil.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:52 am

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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Gozar » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:04 am

These aren’t “small details” we’re splitting hairs over Gozar. This is literally stuff that THE ENTIRE CORE OF NUMEROUS PLOTLINES ABSOLUTELY HINGE UPON in order for any of them to make any sort of coherent logical sense at all;
You keep mentioning things like the deity system in DB. But it was rather clear to myself when all I was doing was watching the Dub on Toonami that these people were gods. I don't really see the difference in what they're called since they serve the same purpose.

But on the subject of Piccolo and Piccolo Daimao, I whole heartily agree.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:13 am

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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Gozar » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:27 am

Really? I guess I simply don't bother with people who are so insanely ignorant.

But still, can you explain exactly what repercussions not knowing their gods has on the DB Universe? I don't really understand why it's SUCH a big deal.

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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:37 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Excellent, if overused, example.
Sorry, I can't help it. I rank Duel of the Fates up there with some of my favorite pieces from recent memory. It established that scene damned near perfectly, sort of how Liberi Fatali made FFVIII's intro completely badass.

As far as the rest of the exchange goes, I agree. It's sad that so many points of plot were basically cast aside without any thought whatsoever. The entirety of dub DragonBall Z was seemingly written with no consideration for what came before or would follow after. I don't know if this was originally because FUNimation were unsure if the series would gain popularity and therefore didn't care about continuity, however as time wore on and the series became solidified you would think things would change. Not only that, but the redubs that came later provided ample opportunity to fix glaring errors (didn't they leave Bardock's scene in the redub even after all these years?).

I mean, Bardock leading Freeza's men against Freeza? Gero leading the Red Ribbon Army? Bulma knowing Goku since he was 5? These blunders combined with the outright omissions (Piccolo Daimao's reincarnation into Piccolo, the God hierarchy, etc.) and Toei's own inconsistencies make dub DragonBall Z completely nonsensical in and of itself.

Though, something funny that I had never thought of: FUNimation placed emphasis on Vejita's temper...and yet, they ignored its role in his transformation into a Super Saiyajin. Brilliant.
Gozar wrote:But still, can you explain exactly what repercussions not knowing their gods has on the DB Universe? I don't really understand why it's SUCH a big deal.
Well, the entire Buu arc plays heavily on the hierarchy of the Gods. I mean, why is Piccolo scared shitless? Who is Kaioshin? Who did Buu absorb? Etc.

-Corey

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:31 am

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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Victator Supreme » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:34 am

I finally understood what Falconer was going for with most of his music. I recently watched Bloodsport and Kickboxer again.Its obvious Falconer was doing his best to imitate Paul Hertzog's scores from both. Here is an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JS-ON_OGDA

I think on a few occasions he succedes. With the Spirit Bomb theme, the Ginyu switch theme, Vegeta SSJ, most of the stuff he did during the Buu Saga. His main flw is he has no middle ground its either awful or good (occasionaly great). I'll stick with the original sound track for the sake of consistency.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:04 am

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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Gozar » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:47 am

*Is now picturing Kaio-sama singing Bohemian Rhapsody*

Anyway... I just don't see it as that big of a deal. It IS explained in the Dub that the Kaio's are guardians of sectors. So I truly don't see the problem. I think the concept of someone guarding and watching over something is enough to imply that he's they are people of high standing. Yes it's not great, but it's hardly anything that destroys the essence of DragonBall.

Though I will agree with you on the expressions in the gangs face when he says he going to train with Kami.

But before you stated that...
This is literally stuff that THE ENTIRE CORE OF NUMEROUS PLOTLINES ABSOLUTELY HINGE UPON in order for any of them to make any sort of coherent logical sense at all
Which simply doesn't happen. The plots don't collapse inwards just because they're not called "Gods". Like I said, it's a inconvenience...But nothing to really get upset over. I mean after all, since DB's meaning of God seems to be someone who watches over..."Guardian" isn't really some stretch. Hell it's not like the DB gods are "Omni-Present" like Catholicism ensues.

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Post by NeptuneKai » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:16 am

That's the thing too much implying not enough explaining. It is especially annoying when they push an important piece of dialouge out of the way to get an awful joke out there.
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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:53 am

Let's see.

I think I bought the Home For Infinite Losers until middle school. Or whenever the hell I found DBZ Uncensored.

Why NOT believe it at face value, after all? There's no precedent for anything else. I mean, people say "Oh come on, kids HAVE to get that this isn't the original, right? Just LOOK at the place. He's given a fucking HALO."

I got that he "died", in a sense, sure. Cartoons always found crazy euphemisms for dying to avoid actually SAYING it when I was a kid, and I'd just accept it and KNOW that somebody died.

But the whole place was rather wacky(from my American Judeo-Christian culture standards), so why wouldn't an afterlife have a special section for losers? In an action series, no less, it seemed to make sense.

"Sent to another dimension" or "trapped in another dimension" was confusing for a bit, sure. But the halos and the clouds and the going to see what was obviously something like a God of sorts made the whole thing click.

The Kais come off as gods far more easily than Kami does in the dub, to me. At least, they are conveyed as supernatural beings that watch over the universe. I didn't see Kami as this, particularly, I think that's because his whole backstory wasn't dubbed until I'd already knew through the internet. I'm guessing that if I had continued without caring, I'm sure I would have realized he was a God during the original Dragonball. Considering that I knew as a kid that no TV show would make a "God" that wasn't a wise old white guy, or a bright light with a deep voice, the idea that a sort of "Guardian" figure might step in for a more active "God" didn't really phase me. It was simply the reality of anything animated.




Now, I'm not defending the dub. I refuse to. Ever since I found DBZ Uncensored and read the kinds of things that were changed for my benefit, I've been pissed that Funimation found it to be necessary to keep the original from me. That it was their opinion that I was too stupid for this, or too impressionable for that.

As an original product, I have to say, I wouldn't mind the dub. I like a lot of cartoons that are probably rather crappy. If Dragonball were made in the US and the dub was all that existed, I'm sure I would have continued to at the very least have fond memories of it.

But the thing is, it's not an original product. And it's not a proper translation of the original product. It's a gloss and some cutting and piecing together of the original product made in order to make the show an epic action cartoon.

But then if I'm not defending the dub, what am I doing?

I think I'm trying to provide the perspective of a dub fan, which I was before finding the original, through the lens of a sub fan, which I most DEFINITELY became later.

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Post by Kendamu » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:29 pm

Has everyone forgotten that there is a (albeit small) manga fanbase to add to these categories? Y'know... elitists like me who are like, "What? Was that in the manga? No, you say? Then fuck off!"

Actually, I'm not that bad.

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Post by Tsukento » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:26 pm

I could've added manga, but that's a whole different thing of its own considering there's not really that much to it like the anime in terms of split groups.

One thing I have noticed just now...

Some dub viewers are just outright stupid. To our dub viewing forum members, keep in mind, I'm not referring to you guys as we're all fairly intelligent here. :)

No no. I'm referring to the idiots who watch a scene of DBZ's remastered footage in English with the Japanese audio and then make ridiculously stupid comments like this:

"OMG THIS MUSIC IZ MAKIN MI SICK. i wudv never watched dbz if they used this crap"

"Honestly the japanese music version sucks, they don't even have the "Vegeta" theme and it is not so serious:("

"why does everyone love the japanese music so much? it doesn't suit dbz at all."

But then I realize, maybe...JUST MAYBE it's not their fault for thinking this way. Maybe part of that blame for that ignorance goes to FUNimation for making people believe DBZ is nothing but ADD driven fight scenes with music constantly going in the background.

Part of me wants to rage so hard at the commenters. However, another part of me wants to shake my head at how FUNi changed DBZ so much that people's perception on what the show is is vastly different from those that have seen the original.

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Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:34 pm

Kunzait, have you watched the Saiyan saga redub at all? They DO mention Goku and Raditz going to the afterlife, and all that stuff.

Honestly, you overexaggerate things WAY TOO MUCH. You act like the Kai's not being called God's ruins their entire character.

And I honestly think you only skim through dub scenes. I've watched the Season Sets in English A LOT recently and it's no where near as bad as you're describing it. Just watch the Uncut Saiyan Saga redub.

And honestly, the Japanese music isn't all that amazing anyway. Good, but not blow-away. I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdNBQvyr5p4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYYMRzjh8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRTfTW2EPu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwfiF2pqQe0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZZrwwO-F4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz2sT6K9Rmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_D5BaWigFU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hildNcOEpF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_RIEWj ... re=related

You're acting like the dub and JPN versions are completely different. As someone who has never even thought about watching the Japanese version and simply reads the Japanese subtitles while I'm watching the show in English, I can say that a lot of the lines in episodes are similar, AND A LOT OF THE PLOT ELEMENTS ARE LEFT IN TACT.

Really, I'm on the same boat as Gozar. I respect both versions. For music, from episodes 1-67, JPN music all the way because of Nathan Johnson's music. From 68-291, Falconer all the way. The Japanese script is better than the dub, but the dub script after the Frieza saga isn't even all that bad. You're being way to harsh on the dub. Yes, it is different, but they aren't two completely different shows. The same basic plot elements are left in tact, and half of the time, what they're saying is at least somewhat similar to the JPN version, and in some cases, such as SSJ Goku's speech or Vegeta getting angry after Trunks died, closer to the TRUE original, the manga, then the Jap. anime. Basically, I stand in the same position as Gozar.
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Post by Herms » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:02 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Honestly, you overexaggerate things WAY TOO MUCH. You act like the Kai's not being called God's ruins their entire character.
Well think about it this way: what if the dub never refered to Goku, Vegeta, and co. as aliens? Like if the word "Saiyan" would get tossed around without ever being given a particulary clear explanation of what it meant. It might not ruin the entire character of the Saiyan characters, but it'd make their place in the series bizzare and inexplicable, which would take away much of their impact.
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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:04 pm

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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:04 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these
STEP INTO DA GRAND TOUR!

...sorry, had to...I mean seriously, head-bobbing to DragonBall? Does not compute...besides, if Faulconer's stuff is Hip-hop, I'm Tupac...

-Corey

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Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:09 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these
STEP INTO DA GRAND TOUR!

...sorry, had to...I mean seriously, head-bobbing to DragonBall? Does not compute...besides, if Faulconer's stuff is Hip-hop, I'm Tupac...

-Corey
Well, it's similar...

But that theme song is awful. In that case, Funi was trying to do hip-hop, and if they were trying that, they should've contacted RZA.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Post by Rocketman » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:13 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these
STEP INTO DA GRAND TOUR!

...sorry, had to...I mean seriously, head-bobbing to DragonBall? Does not compute...besides, if Faulconer's stuff is Hip-hop, I'm Tupac...

-Corey
Hey man, strap up. We gon' go blast on some Narutard foos.

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