Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

[shinaobi]

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?

One could say that Trunks was at that point so weak and inexperienced that even base Gohan could still hold him off without overmuch trouble.

[Raki]

I still think that the manga's version of events makes more sense, personally

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?

Well that was a younger Trunks. But Gohan wasn't even that strong, and Trunks was weaker than Goku was.

[Xyex]

I still think that the manga's version of events makes more sense, personally

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?

Well that was a younger Trunks. But Gohan wasn't even that strong, and Trunks was weaker than Goku was.

The issue is that SSJ Trunks is 50x stronger than his base. So if Future Gohan was comparable to his father on Namek at that point, then SSJ Trunks had to be less than 3,000,000.

One could say that Trunks was at that point so weak and inexperienced that even base Gohan could still hold him off without overmuch trouble.

That's my take. Gohan had already put him through the paces and Trunks was so exhausted from the training that he couldn't keep up with Gohan even when transformed.

[Satan-Sama]

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?

Well that was a younger Trunks. But Gohan wasn't even that strong, and Trunks was weaker than Goku was.

The issue is that SSJ Trunks is 50x stronger than his base. So if Future Gohan was comparable to his father on Namek at that point, then SSJ Trunks had to be less than 3,000,000.

Who says Super Saiyan has to be a 50x increase...?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I still think that the manga's version of events makes more sense, personally

Gohan in base effortlessly blocking Super Saiyan Trunks' attacks?

How doesn't that make any sense?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I liked the special, since it implied that Future Gohan was strong enough to hold his own. In all reality, though, he couldn't lay a finger on either Android. He wanted to be as strong as Yardrat Goku, which shows he wasn't, or couldn't have been that much stronger then Goku was against Freeza. Someone with a power level barely above Super Saiyan Goku on namek, let alone Yardrat, would never be able to dominate the Androids like Gohan did.

The manga just shows a weak Super Saiyan Trunks sparring with a stronger Base Gohan, which may seem odd, but not too odd. It took him three yrs to at least be stronger or around Gohan, so it makes sense that his Super Saiyan form would initially be very weak.

[Travis Touchdown]

Base Gohan being stronger than SSJ Trunks does seem really odd to me, especially when this Gohan isn't even half as strong as 17. It just seems like a GT instance to me.

The anime seems much more likely and is the only time I accept an anime special over the manga. I've been repeating for quite some time now about Toriyama's spoken approval of the Trunks special, praising Toei and saying they did a better job than he did. But to be fair, Toei was given a tV special and could make it as long as they wanted where Toriyama was restricted to one chapter. Being restricted to just one chapter causes him to squeeze as much in as possible, which is pretty much why I think he inconistencies are there.

You'd think even though Gohan's training was cut short before he was even 10 years old, he'd still be considerably strong 13 years later. The manga either shows this with him being stronger than SSJ Trunks, but I feel the anime shows this better with him being stronger than Android 17. I agree that the anime sets the mood better, because it looks like Gohan actually had a fighting chance, while Trunks 3 years later isn't even close to as strong as Gohan was, which made his mission to save Goku and thus relying on hope so much more meaningful.

[Xyex]

Who says Super Saiyan has to be a 50x increase...?

The manga and the guide books. At least two guide books state it, the PL chart shows it, and the manga directly requires it, or something eve higher, but 50x is the lowest possible increase.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I've been repeating for quite some time now about Toriyama's spoken approval of the Trunks special, praising Toei and saying they did a better job than he did.

When did he say that?

[Herms]

Perhaps he's thinking of Toriyama's comments on the Barduck special, which was in one of his daizenshuu interviews.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Perhaps he's thinking of Toriyama's comments on the Barduck special, which was in one of his daizenshuu interviews.

Well I definitely consider that special canon.

[Onikage725]

I liked the special, since it implied that Future Gohan was strong enough to hold his own. In all reality, though, he couldn't lay a finger on either Android. He wanted to be as strong as Yardrat Goku, which shows he wasn't, or couldn't have been that much stronger then Goku was against Freeza. Someone with a power level barely above Super Saiyan Goku on namek, let alone Yardrat, would never be able to dominate the Androids like Gohan did.

It's entirely possible, though, that Gohan continued his hero-worship of his father. We're talking about a Gohan who's father had died, and who was unable to effectively defend the planet (which he probably assumes his father could have if he was around).

He does the same thing in the main timeline during the Cell Saga. Even though he's on the verge of SSJ2 he thinks his father is superior. When his father shows half his power, and Gohan finds it lacking, he rationalizes to protect this hero image of his dad within his mind. Even at the Cell Games, he thinks his dad will finish things up, and his hesitant when called on to step in.

Future Gohan could have thought he was weaker than post-Yardrat Goku, simply because that was the peak of what he saw his father achieve. In his mind, it would be very hard for him to accept that he surpassed him.

Just a theory to explain his power in the anime version, anyway. He kinda sucked in the manga version.

[Travis Touchdown]

I've been repeating for quite some time now about Toriyama's spoken approval of the Trunks special, praising Toei and saying they did a better job than he did.

When did he say that?

I've spent the last few days searching far and wide for that quote and I just can't find it. I knew I should've saved it when I first found it in case anyone ever questioned it, whatever board I'd be on but I'm sorry, I just can't find it. I guess I'll revoke said statement until I can eventually back it up with proof.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Ginyu stated all of them could suppress their power to zero if need be in the namek saga; now many yrs later they somehow lost the concept of completely suppressing their power? I see no reason why Piccolo is now the best guy when it comes to suppressing his power.

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

Bobbodi can't even sense chi, since both he and Fat Boo didn't know where Goten, Trunks and Piccolo were. Dabra's statement is basically trash. He looked at Goku's Super Saiyan form and simply said "He's glowing". He thought Fat Boo at his first appearance was a laughing stock while Gohan and Kaioshin were shitting themself. All in all, Dabra's chi-sensing skills are crap, and Bobbodi's "trash" statement is just based off of what Dabra said.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta went from being inferior to Reacom to being on-par with Freeza after being piledrived. How much sense does that make?

More than Goku's x33 boost.

Especially since:

Vegeta is in the hundreds of thousands.
He gets his guts blasted out the back of his torso, collapses and nearly bleeds out.
He goes up to somewhere around two million, an increase of something like x10.

Goku is 90,000.
He gets scuffed up a bit.
He goes up to "3,000,000", an increase of x33.

*spits*

So you're calling being beaten around by Vegeta, who was even stronger than Kuririn, to the point of being unable to properly move "scuffed up"? Right...

[Rocketman]

So you're calling being beaten around by Vegeta, who was even stronger than Kuririn, to the point of being unable to properly move "scuffed up"? Right...

Yes, actually, considering the last time he fought Vegeta he had nearly every bone in his body broken and could only lie there screaming as Vegeta kicked his organs into paste, but he didn't get that kind of stupidly high power-up afterwards.

[Dayspring]

Vegeta went from being inferior to Reacom to being on-par with Freeza after being piledrived. How much sense does that make?

More than Goku's x33 boost.

Especially since:

Vegeta is in the hundreds of thousands.
He gets his guts blasted out the back of his torso, collapses and nearly bleeds out.
He goes up to somewhere around two million, an increase of something like x10.

Goku is 90,000.
He gets scuffed up a bit.
He goes up to "3,000,000", an increase of x33.

*spits*

So you're calling being beaten around by Vegeta, who was even stronger than Kuririn, to the point of being unable to properly move "scuffed up"? Right...

The point being made is that Vegeta underwent worse and got waaaay less of a gain:

Vegeta's PL: Between 90,000 and 530,000
Cause of boost: he's literally at death's door
Vegeta's new PL: Between 1,000,000 3,000,000

Goku's PL: 90,000
Cause of boost: beaten to near-paralysis
Goku's new PL: 3,000,000

Vegeta started higher, underwent worse damage, and ends up being weaker. It doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that it's because Vegeta's the highest ranking Saiyan, whereas Goku's among the lowest. Thus, their potentials would be greatly different; Vegeta's could feasably be in the millions, whereas Goku's would only be in the tens of thousands. As a result of passing that low potential, Goku is SSJ material already, and this massive boost was his first SSJ boost.

BTW: easy on the necro posts. 1 month = necro = against the rules.

[rereboy]

I always had a crazy theory of why Goku gained so much power and continued to gain crazy power increases.

Goku did something that no other did in Dragon Ball that we know of. He drank the true holy water fabled to be at karin`s tower in order to fight piccolo. That water is said to make you stronger.

In my theory, from that moment on, goku ceased to be restrained by his low rank sayan soldier nature.

I think that the water is somewhat different than both the potential releases that gohan received in Namek and later on in the buu saga. It releases not only the potential of the individual like the other two making the individual stronger, but it also removes much of one`s limits, allowing one person to eventually become stronger than his full potential.

From that moment on, thanks to the water, he could achieve massive progress, and much faster than early on in the series.

It is only a crazy idea, but to me it makes sense.

(oh and I only watched the anime. But I dont think the holy water part is filler).

EDIT: I read just now the DB manga about the part where the "holy water" comes into picture. It seems to indicate that the water wouldn`t help you if you already reached your limit. So my theory doesn`t exactily work. At least not the way I was thinking about it.

[Satan-Sama]

More than Goku's x33 boost.

Especially since:

Vegeta is in the hundreds of thousands.
He gets his guts blasted out the back of his torso, collapses and nearly bleeds out.
He goes up to somewhere around two million, an increase of something like x10.

Goku is 90,000.
He gets scuffed up a bit.
He goes up to "3,000,000", an increase of x33.

*spits*

So you're calling being beaten around by Vegeta, who was even stronger than Kuririn, to the point of being unable to properly move "scuffed up"? Right...

The point being made is that Vegeta underwent worse and got waaaay less of a gain:

Vegeta's PL: Between 90,000 and 530,000
Cause of boost: he's literally at death's door
Vegeta's new PL: Between 1,000,000 3,000,000

Goku's PL: 90,000
Cause of boost: beaten to near-paralysis
Goku's new PL: 3,000,000

Vegeta started higher, underwent worse damage, and ends up being weaker. It doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that it's because Vegeta's the highest ranking Saiyan, whereas Goku's among the lowest. Thus, their potentials would be greatly different; Vegeta's could feasably be in the millions, whereas Goku's would only be in the tens of thousands. As a result of passing that low potential, Goku is SSJ material already, and this massive boost was his first SSJ boost.

BTW: easy on the necro posts. 1 month = necro = against the rules.

It's a good thing he necro posted. When a thread of mine is being bumped, it's always a good thing.

[Kaboom]

On the "Goku's zenkais vs Vegeta's zenkais" thing...

Both of them, as far as I'm concerned, were getting such huge zenkais because they were inching closer and closer to Super Saiyan. Vegeta pointed it out at one point, and it makes sense to me.

But still, Goku was being set up to be THE "legendary Super Saiyan." (as he arguably continued to be within manga-continuity) Making such comparatively huge gains would be par for the course considering that.

Also, you might consider actually being forced OUT of his own body and into another, and then being forced back in, as possibly some really trippy variety of a "near-death experience," and likewise a big contribution to his final zenkai.