Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

B. The same representation issues DBZ has had for years now. 18 needing instruction from her brother in using her infinite stamina strategically, was extremely painful viewing.

This comes across as incredibly disingenuous, as though you are actively searching for reasons to hate on the show. 18 doesn't lack agency. She has her own reasons for doing things and yet this moment pains you? Sorry, not buying it.

[In Brightest Day]

First, I'm only talking about the anime and Yamcha maybe being included on the team is absolutely meant to be played for laughs. We know this because Yamcha is waiting around for Goku to tell him he's part of the team. He's not exactly humble about it either. This is not meant to be ambiguous. This is clearly poking fun at Yamcha

Oh, well, I was talking about the manga - I don't know if the rules have changed around what we consider "canon" anymore, but regardless, one medium leaned into a meme and the other treated the character with relative sincerity.

But more fundamentally, forget about power.

I've only been harping on about strength because your argument is based way more on power levels than you seem to be aware of.

You have to look at the characters and their function in the story. Yamcha makes it to Kaio's in far less time than Goku does but because he's not the main character, it is never portrayed as some big accomplishment. Yamcha's role as being the guy to set up Goku's next big opponent ended when he lost to Tenshinhan at the 22nd TB.

A character's function in a story can change, so your point is redundant.

After that, his role is that of the sacrificial lamb. Hell, even his battle against the Saibaiman was kinda pathetic. He makes a good showing but he dies due to his own arrogance.

Again, neither of those fights had the intention of making Yamcha lose face - remember, author intent is important.

Your analogy to a no. 5 ranking UFC fighter doesn't hold water as the last time he had that level of credibility was the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. After losing so many times he loses credibility.

No, it doesn't and your notion of credibility is completely subjective. For someone who seems to have a high view of his own analysis, this is an extremely surface level and passive understanding of those scenes.

Yamcha was what? Anywhere from the 5th to 10th strongest person living on earth for well over a decade, which in real-world fighting terms would be legendary, so the analogy works fine.

I don't watch MMA but I am a wrestling fan, so I'll use an example from this world to show what I mean. Mick Foley was one of the top good guys during a very popular era. He was even the world champ a few times. Towards the end of his career, he was the guy who would help get the bad guys to the next level. It worked like gangbusters for HHH and Randy Orton. Their matches showed a different side of both men, but Foley kept losing. After a certain point, defeating Foley ceased to mean what it once did considering it was done so often.

Considering I've been wrestling for five years now, I feel pretty well-informed on the subject - first of all, authors aren't beholden to the physical limitations of the real world, so this metaphor is already pretty sketchy. Secondly, other than a program with Ric Flair in 2006 (which was 10 years too late, but that's beside the point), the only two storylines Mick was in were the aforementioned programs with Triple H in 2000, and Randy Orton in 2004, both of which were successful. Mick didn't do much after that simply because he was a physically broken down mess, who could barely walk up a small flight of stairs, let alone work the physical style he was known for, which unfortunately was firmly driven home in his god awful TNA run. Again, fiction authors don't need to take those factors into consideration, unless they actively choose to do so.

Yamcha at some point became someone the audience had a connection with but could be injured or offed at any moment and it not feel like schmuck bait. Super just took that idea further and turned it into a joke.

This doesn't have any relevance to this discussion. Neither Toriyama nor Toyotarou is under any obligation to write Yamcha this way.

What I find odd is that you put so much emphasis on power, seemingly well above theme, story, and character, but think 17's inclusion doesn't make sense

... No, I'm not. My entire basis for Yamcha and Majin Boo being chosen instead of Roshi and 17 was enitirely based on the decisions I believe those characters would make, based on my understanding of them as people in the universe they inhabit which, yes, to some extent, is related to how strong those characters should be (shocking, in a series about fighting and being the strongest you can be). Reading comprehension: 0/10

I don't see how Goku being the one to suggest it is inherently illogical, though. There are better ways to get to 17 joining but it's still a solid idea. About the only place to go for Yamcha is to have him actually eliminate someone in the tournament of power, but considering Yamcha is still more or less retired by the end of DBZ and there were already several other fighters who had been pseudo-retired and whose love of martial arts had been reignited, I don't see what value Yamcha brings.

Which is fine, we don't need to agree, but if you're just going to continue responding to my answers with "well, I think it was good" then I'm not really sure what the point is in carrying on the conversation, as it feels like we're going in circles and talking around each other.

They don't matter nearly to the extent you make it seem. The rules of a story aren't like that of a game. They are mutable. Yamcha's power may have kept up with Kuririn and Tenshinhan, that's debatable, but his function in the story sure didn't. Story, them, character - these are elements that carry far more weight in the narrative

I only made that point in the first place because your statement about 'power scaling being important to the story' was in relation to Yamcha being selected for the team, so I don't understand the miscommunication.

But Yamcha's inclusion is organic?

I mean, yes, and I've given you my reasoning for thinking so several times now. Again, if it's just going to be one-line responses like this after I've explained my reasoning in multiple posts, I don't see what either of us is getting out of this at this point.

18 is a different character than 17 with a different personality. She's not portrayed as being cynical towards humanity.

Unless 17 changed dramatically since the Android arc, he hasn't ever been portrayed as being more cynical than 18. Other than her relationship with Krillin and Maron, 18 wouldn't generally be described as a kind or warm person by most - her growth is almost identical to 17s in that sense, they both adore their families but don't particularly enjoy being around other people. If anything, 18 is even more cynical than her bother. 17 doesn't give a shit about material possessions and joined the team to save the world, while 18 literally only accepted the offer for the money.

B. The same representation issues DBZ has had for years now. 18 needing instruction from her brother in using her infinite stamina strategically, was extremely painful viewing.

This comes across as incredibly disingenuous, as though you are actively searching for reasons to hate on the show. 18 doesn't lack agency. She has her own reasons for doing things and yet this moment pains you? Sorry, not buying it.

For you to make an entirely separate post calling out this one quote from everything else that I wrote shows me that you're not particularly interested in the discourse, but that rather you're, simply focused on winning "an argument." I'm a massive fan of the show, hence me being on this forum - that doesn't mean I can't have different opinions about it than you do. You don't have to buy it, I'm not selling.

[ABED]

For you to make an entirely separate post calling out this one quote from everything else that I wrote shows me that you're not particularly interested in the discourse, but that rather you're, simply focused on winning "an argument." I'm a massive fan of the show, hence me being on this forum - that doesn't mean I can't have different opinions about it than you do. You don't have to buy it, I'm not selling.

I didn't mean Dragon Ball, I meant Super. And I've always been talking about the anime, so given how much the Super anime and manga diverge, I think we should be clear on what we're referencing. I wrote it in a separate post because it didn't dawn on me until a tad later why it bugged me that much.

I mean, yes, and I've given you my reasoning for thinking so several times now. Again, if it's just going to be one-line responses like this after I've explained my reasoning in multiple posts, I don't see what either of us is getting out of this at this point.

You gave a strategy he could employ not why he's interesting and his inclusion makes any sense character wise or story wise. What does he bring to the team? Why bring him out of retirement? Why have several characters come out of retirement just for one of them to go back into retirement by the end Z? You gave ZERO compelling reasoning. I've reread your posts to see if I was missing something and you didn't give any reason he should be on the team other than "If Yamcha's not on the team then Roshi, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan shouldn't be either" which since I never argued that they should it's not a good reason. I'm asking what you think he brings to the story. Why Yamcha?

No, it doesn't and your notion of credibility is completely subjective. For someone who seems to have a high view of his own analysis, this is an extremely surface level and passive understanding of those scenes.

Yamcha was what? Anywhere from the 5th to 10th strongest person living on earth for well over a decade, which in real-world fighting terms would be legendary, so the analogy works fine.

This is a false analogy. The difference between real world fighters is still within human limitations, whereas in DB world the difference is exponential. Defeating Yamcha has long since stopped having value as he hasn't contributed anything meaningful to the narrative since maybe the Saiyan arc where his death carried some weight. Pretending we're still at that point is asinine narratively speaking. You can't just take each individual scene on its own. You have to understand the wider context.

My entire basis for Yamcha and Majin Boo being chosen instead of Roshi and 17 was enitirely based on the decisions I believe those characters would make, based on my understanding of them as people in the universe they inhabit which, yes, to some extent, is related to how strong those characters should be (shocking, in a series about fighting and being the strongest you can be). Reading comprehension: 0/10

Then you don't have a firm grasp on the understanding of the world they inhabit. Why would Yamcha be someone who would give them the best shot at survival? I know he's their friend, but they pick Freeza so they are willing to make devil's bargains in order to win. Picking someone who hasn't won a meaningful battle damn near ever would be a bad choice on their part. How about this? They pick Buu and 17. Leaving power out of the equation, Roshi was retired and his story was redundant, and as has been stated a lot, Yamcha was retired because he had been far surpassed. Also no way he would be chosen over stronger fighters, which throw a rock and you'll find one in DB.

Again, neither of those fights had the intention of making Yamcha lose face - remember, author intent is important.

It does, as does the wider context. If you play a note often enough, audience expectations are gonna change. Freeza was brought back several times but he will never carry the same weight he did in the first time. At a certain point you hit the point of diminishing returns. Character deaths mean less and less the more they are brought back, so it would be asinine to use death in the same way like it's going to tug on the heart strings when you've implicitly told the audience over the years that death is temporary. They may intend to make you feel sad but if their narrative choices to that point undercut it, it won't matter who you kill off. To bring this back around to Yamcha, if the author hasn't done anything meaningful with a character over the years, I don't think they should be surprised that their intention to have the audience feel much towards them. If all that ever happened to Yamcha was one loss to the Saibaimen, I doubt he would've become a meme. Kuririn is held in pretty high regard among the fandom even though he's died and lost a lot as well. There's more than that single fight. He has a pattern of losing and even assuming they were all earnest loses, the cumulative effect is him going from having lost a few fights to a loser. Within the story I don't think his friends should treat him as a loser, but I don't think they would choose him if the stakes were high enough if they have better options.

This doesn't have any relevance to this discussion. Neither Toriyama nor Toyotarou is under any obligation to write Yamcha this way.

Then they shouldn't be surprised their choices might not have the effect they intend. I don't think he necessarily should be treated as a joke but I don't think we should treat Yamcha like he is a great warrior you can use as a measuring stick.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Unfortunately, for the argument you’re trying to make, Goku was the one to suggest it.

If Toyotarou was dead-set on 17 returning, I would have preferred if 18 and Krillin broached the subject themselves (remaining in at least loose contact, even if it was strained, makes more sense than “oh yeah, I totally forgot I had a brother. Thanks for the suggestion Goku!”) or alternatively, have Piccolo suggest him as a nod to their fight in the Android arc.

I don't have a dog in the overall argument around Yamcha's non-selection here, but just on a point of fact, in the manga (which seems to be your medium of choice here, given the mention of Toyotarou) Goku is not the one who suggests the inclusion of #17 at the beginning: Vegeta does this when Goku suggests Kuririn and Android #18, on the relatively straightforward logic of 'if you're going to have #18, don't forget #17'. It seems to arise as a fairly natural point in the conversation.

[TobyS]

I think we need to separate the "should Yamcha be included" and "Should 17 be included"

17 is logical as an extension of 18. And yes that's what happens in the manga. All but Goku have met him. And crucially he's even stronger then her.

Yamcha should have been chosen over Roshi.

And then Freeza as a replacement for Buu if he falls asleep.

They should perhaps have thought of Yamcha before 17 because of his proximity to the main cast and length of time they have known him, but 17 is deffo making the final cut.

[PurestEvil]

I think we need to separate the "should Yamcha be included" and "Should 17 be included"

17 is logical as an extension of 18. And yes that's what happens in the manga. All but Goku have met him. And crucially he's even stronger then her.

Yamcha should have been chosen over Roshi.

And then Freeza as a replacement for Buu if he falls asleep.

They should perhaps have thought of Yamcha before 17 because of his proximity to the main cast and length of time they have known him, but 17 is deffo making the final cut.

And with that, you have won the argument

[MasenkoHA]

Yamucha had pretty much retired from fighting after the Cell saga. Roshi was retired but Goku’s reasoning that he had hundreds of years of martial arts knowledge would be useful (and this was not long after Roshi had sent Goku and Kuririn to special training in the illusion forest and Roshi teaching Goku the mafuba technique so his knowledge would have been fresh in Goku’s mind) so no it makes more sense for Goku to select his former martial arts teacher, that he just recently went with his former sparring partner to retrain with, than a guy he barely interacted with anymore and mostly stopped fighting to be a pro baseball player

[LoganForkHands73]

It's also worth keeping Roshi because of his greater experience in tournament settings. Ignoring the power-scaling for a moment, Roshi is a Tenkaichi Budokai legend. Although the Tournament of Power is a very different kind of competition, the refined art of strategically smacking a bitch out of a ring still applies. I'm fairly sure that the last canonical tournament win Yamcha bagged himself outside of offscreen preliminaries was against the Invisible Man at Baba's place, and even that was mainly thanks to Roshi, Krillin and Bulma's jugs. Might even be the last win ever outside of his filler fights against Recoome and Olibu. True, Yamcha ought to be far stronger than Roshi but he arguably has the worst luck of any Z-Warrior, resulting in a shambolic fight record. Even Mr. Satan was considered briefly because he's the luckiest bastard in the universe despite his microscopic power level.

As for Android #17, his presence in the arc was logical and ultimately proved to be one of the best decisions made in Super, both in-universe and out.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t entirely understand the argument that Roshi was picked over Yamcha because of “experience.” Yes, he’s been around much longer than Yamcha has, but even aside from the fact that Yamcha should realistically be much stronger than him, let’s not forget that it took Roshi 50 years to master the Kamehameha, while Yamcha learned it much earlier.

Besides, at least in terms of the anime, Yamcha seemed pretty open to competing in the ToP, so it’s weird that he wasn’t even considered. It comes across as an example of Toriyama and the writers giving fuel to the “Lol, Yamcha is useless” meme. I’m not even much of a Yamcha fan, but I find myself wishing the writers would just throw him a bone every now and then.

[TobyS]

Yamucha had pretty much retired from fighting after the Cell saga. Roshi was retired but Goku’s reasoning that he had hundreds of years of martial arts knowledge would be useful (and this was not long after Roshi had sent Goku and Kuririn to special training in the illusion forest and Roshi teaching Goku the mafuba technique so his knowledge would have been fresh in Goku’s mind) so no it makes more sense for Goku to select his former martial arts teacher, that he just recently went with his former sparring partner to retrain with, than a guy he barely interacted with anymore and mostly stopped fighting to be a pro baseball player

That forest training "weed" stuff was toei filler. His hundreds of years of experience don't matter when he said to Goku, Yamcha, Kuririn and Ten" you have surpassed me [as martial artists] now". Yamcha just got better in less time that's a credit to Yamcha not Roshi!

It absolutely makes sense he'd pick his fellow Turtle school friend who knows long surpassed his combined master, and went on to train with two gods their master never did.
He was fighting more recently and was stronger when he stopped doing so. He's only said to have "stopped fighting" somewhere between the 7 years after Cell (we aren't sure how late into the 7) and not that he didn't keep in shape. He's then wearing his Gi again as of "Yo son Goku!" if you are taking anime into account.

you can prefer Roshi, as Toriyama (but thankfully not Toyo) does, but don't pretend it makes more sense.

[ABED]

Yamucha had pretty much retired from fighting after the Cell saga. Roshi was retired but Goku’s reasoning that he had hundreds of years of martial arts knowledge would be useful (and this was not long after Roshi had sent Goku and Kuririn to special training in the illusion forest and Roshi teaching Goku the mafuba technique so his knowledge would have been fresh in Goku’s mind) so no it makes more sense for Goku to select his former martial arts teacher, that he just recently went with his former sparring partner to retrain with, than a guy he barely interacted with anymore and mostly stopped fighting to be a pro baseball player

That forest training "weed" stuff was toei filler. His hundreds of years of experience don't matter when he said to Goku, Yamcha, Kuririn and Ten" you have surpassed me [as martial artists] now". Yamcha just got better in less time that's a credit to Yamcha not Roshi!

It absolutely makes sense he'd pick his fellow Turtle school friend who knows long surpassed his combined master, and went on to train with two gods their master never did.
He was fighting more recently and was stronger when he stopped doing so. He's only said to have "stopped fighting" somewhere between the 7 years after Cell (we aren't sure how late into the 7) and not that he didn't keep in shape. He's then wearing his Gi again as of "Yo son Goku!" if you are taking anime into account.

you can prefer Roshi, as Toriyama (but thankfully not Toyo) does, but don't pretend it makes more sense.

Does the filler distinction count given how divergent the Super anime and manga are?

The reason the filler distinction made sense for the original run is because the adaptation was so close to the manga but added scenes and moments to fill up time. They would often turn out to be contradictory and Toriyama was never going to let Toei's additions change the course of his story so when the anime adapts subsequent chapters, it would almost inevitably contradict itself as a result.

[WittyUsername]

Yamucha had pretty much retired from fighting after the Cell saga. Roshi was retired but Goku’s reasoning that he had hundreds of years of martial arts knowledge would be useful (and this was not long after Roshi had sent Goku and Kuririn to special training in the illusion forest and Roshi teaching Goku the mafuba technique so his knowledge would have been fresh in Goku’s mind) so no it makes more sense for Goku to select his former martial arts teacher, that he just recently went with his former sparring partner to retrain with, than a guy he barely interacted with anymore and mostly stopped fighting to be a pro baseball player

That forest training "weed" stuff was toei filler. His hundreds of years of experience don't matter when he said to Goku, Yamcha, Kuririn and Ten" you have surpassed me [as martial artists] now". Yamcha just got better in less time that's a credit to Yamcha not Roshi!

It absolutely makes sense he'd pick his fellow Turtle school friend who knows long surpassed his combined master, and went on to train with two gods their master never did.
He was fighting more recently and was stronger when he stopped doing so. He's only said to have "stopped fighting" somewhere between the 7 years after Cell (we aren't sure how late into the 7) and not that he didn't keep in shape. He's then wearing his Gi again as of "Yo son Goku!" if you are taking anime into account.

you can prefer Roshi, as Toriyama (but thankfully not Toyo) does, but don't pretend it makes more sense.

Does the filler distinction count given how divergent the Super anime and manga are?

The reason the filler distinction made sense for the original run is because the adaptation was so close to the manga but added scenes and moments to fill up time. They would often turn out to be contradictory and Toriyama was never going to let Toei's additions change the course of his story so when the anime adapts subsequent chapters, it would almost inevitably contradict itself as a result.

In terms of what Toriyama intended when he chose to include Roshi in the Tournament of Power roster, he probably wasn’t taking anything Toei did into account. He chose to include Roshi over Yamcha because he likes the character, not because he thought it would make more sense.

[ABED]

Does that matter regarding the filler issue? And how do we know what Toriyama's idea were?

[WittyUsername]

Does that matter regarding the filler issue? And how do we know what Toriyama's idea were?

I can’t think of any other reason for Roshi’s renewed relevance in modern Dragon Ball, other than that Toriyama likes the character, and doesn’t care for Yamcha.

[Kid Buu]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

[PurestEvil]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

Unfortunately, it was so rigged against him that outside help was required for him to win.
He still would have won if Baba did not start fucking singing.

[Kid Buu]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

Unfortunately, it was so rigged against him that outside help was required for him to win.
He still would have won if Baba did not start fucking singing.

Touche, but per Baba's own rules he is the victor.

[Jord]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

Yamcha also beat Son Goku

[ABED]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

Yamcha also beat Son Goku

When did he defeat Goku?

Yes, I forgot he defeated the invisible man. That feels like the exception that proves the rule.

[PurestEvil]

He has never won a damn fight.

He did win one fight - The Invisible Man.

Yamcha also beat Son Goku

I would not say he "beat" Goku, since the fight did not have a proper conclusion. Yamcha just ran away because he saw A wOmAn.