Bussani wrote:To be fair, that attack that destroyed the moon could technically have been much greater than the planet-busting punches. Star-busting punches* could also destroy a moon, after all.
Also that scan makes no sense when in the same series he couldn't break the grasp of a giant monster. I'm pretty sure if holding the earth for 5 days is simple, breaking a monsters grip should be easy.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
How strong was that Giant Monster in the first place? I guess the monster was just as powerful as Superman himself (I'm just guessing since I haven't been update to date with Superman). Only one more week to go until the video is uploaded. I still bet that the battle will end up being a tie. Even if Goku or Superman wins, we will still have people debating on who would win.
SaiyanZ wrote:Shadow Thief creates the equivalent of our Moon. Superman flies into this Moon, destroying it, and gets KNOCKED OUT. Do you see the problem here?
From what I can remember that Moon was created from Magic which is something that Superman is weak against?
Superman's vulnerable to spell effects, just like everyone is, but items conjured with magic don't necessarily have magical effects on them. For instance, a cage enchanted to be unbreakable by anyone wearing a cape couldn't be broken by Superman (unless he took his off his cape). If you cast a spell to create a regular cage, on the other hand, it can be broken just as easily as any other regular cage.
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Honestly inconsistency stuff happens all of the time in fiction. Dragon Ball is no different since Cell died from a attack that only made a small hole in the ground and you don't see people saying that Spider-Man can beat him now. Minor stuff like that happen tends to be ignore in debates unless there is a good reason for it.
When has Son Goku ever shown the physical strength to destroy a planet through the sheer force of his physical strength? Never. Only his qi-enforced attacks (i.e. Kamehameha and Genkidama) has such prowess which is where Superman's absurdly high speed comes into play. Even though Son Goku vastly outclasses Superman in terms of close quarter combat skills he still is immensely dwarfed by Superman's own physical abilities. All of Son Goku's skills won't even help him when his reflexes will be far too slow to register a single punch yet alone withstand their force. A single plant-destroying punch should be enough to render Son Goku into a fine paste even if he is in his SSJ3 form.
Then even in the scenario that Son Goku manages to register and evade Superman's blows there's still the fact that none of Son Goku's attacks will have the slightest effect on Superman who on a regular basis shrugs off planet destroying attacks.
Of course all of this is assuming that they pick the comic version (preferably Silver-age) of Superman. If it's the animated version then it's Son Goku who's got the edge and subsequent victory.
SaiyanZ wrote: the fight escalates so much that Superman and Konvikt are throwing and tanking PLANET-BUSTING punches. This feat alone, as so many others, should put them above virtually any feat shown in the Buu saga.
Um, a Kame Hame Ha by Muten-Rōshi blew up the moon early on. It's flat out stated that Vegeta's Gyallic-Hō can blow up the Earth if it's not blocked. Pretty sure that ‘planet-busting’ isn't out of DBZ characters' leagues at all.
Blue wrote:I love how Season 2 is so off color even the box managed to be so.
I would assume that folks are referring to physical attacks being these "busting" (ugh, that phrase is driving me nuts...!) attacks, rather than ki-based attacks, and specifically projectiles.
That being said, we've seen Goku infuse his finger with ki when he was blocking Trunks' sword swings right after their mutual arrivals, so there's absolutely nothing out of the question in terms of Goku infusing his fist with some amount of ki to enhance that type of attack.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
I've always pretty much taken it for granted that the reason Goku et al can punch through rocks and whatnot is because they're enhancing their punches with ki. But maybe my thinking on the matter is too influenced by Hunter x Hunter. Anyway, there is that Toriyama quote from the SEG about physical strength having a limit and ki being the way to overcome that.
Same. I don't see how it couldn't be the case. Otherwise Mr. Satan would be as physically powerful as Goku outside of "shooting lasers." Seems like ki is a universal enhancement that just happens to be super versatile and can be applied to whatever skill the user feels compelled to use it for. If they aren't using it for something then they wouldn't be any stronger than the average person with similar mass and in similar physical condition, which was arguably the point of the rock gag with Krillin and a sleeping Goku.
For the record, Superman can actually do this, too, although it works a little differently. He can consciously or subconsciously reduce his power. He's offered to let a very angry Batman take a free swing at him without any consequences. Amusingly, Batman took the offer...except instead of his fist he used a barrage of missiles.
SaiyanZ wrote: the fight escalates so much that Superman and Konvikt are throwing and tanking PLANET-BUSTING punches. This feat alone, as so many others, should put them above virtually any feat shown in the Buu saga.
It's flat out stated that Vegeta's Gyallic-Hō can blow up the Earth if it's not blocked. Pretty sure that ‘planet-busting’ isn't out of DBZ characters' leagues at all.
I never believe that Vegeta can blow up a Planet during the time since he would never be that foolish to begin with it. He would have died in space if he did blow up the Earth completely. People always forget that "Destroy the Earth" can be mean anything. It's possible that his attack was only going to destroy Goku or the Earth's surface.
This might be my cynical, seeing it from the writers' perspective, side showing but generally speaking if a character says something, unless there's some indication written into the plot that hints at him being an unreliable narrator, then we're probably meant to take the statement at face value. Rule of perception and all. Hell, that's the reason Vegeta says anything to begin with. Had he stayed silent on the subject we'd just assume he was firing a large but otherwise unremarkable attack at Goku.
Last edited by TonyTheTiger on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Piccolo say that Freeza could probably destroy Namek with his bare hands, or something like that?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
I always think that Freeza is the first true Planet buster in the series. King Cold said that he can destroy the Earth with a single attack. Which is not surprising since it was already mention in the manga that Freeza destroy Planet Vegeta without transformation from what I can remember.
The OBD did calculations on Freeza and it appears that Namek's GBE as multiple times larger than Earth's.
TonyTheTiger wrote:Same. I don't see how it couldn't be the case. Otherwise Mr. Satan would be as physically powerful as Goku outside of "shooting lasers." Seems like ki is a universal enhancement that just happens to be super versatile and can be applied to whatever skill the user feels compelled to use it for. If they aren't using it for something then they wouldn't be any stronger than the average person with similar mass and in similar physical condition, which was arguably the point of the rock gag with Krillin and a sleeping Goku.
The rock gag was anime only. Also Goku is already Super Strong from Muten Roshi's training and even before that. Ki definitely takes part in their strength, but to say they would be the same as average people without it seems ridiculous. I only see ki being a part of strength usually when they power up, Before that every thing seemed raw. No way is Mr. Satan close to Goku without Ki enhancing.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Does it matter what the real multiplier is? This is death battle they think SSJ forms are just a 500% increase on top of each other because they are very uninformed. BTW thats a 625x multiplier for SSJ4 >_>. Seriously go through the death battles and look up some legitimate info on the character they pit against each other, they get a lot of stuff wrong. I'm actually a little baffled they choose to make up there own shit for the sake of having info for the fights =/. I wont be surprised if they get a lot of stuff on this one wrong too.
They fixed SSJ back to 50x. Kanzenshuu gave the death battle crew loads of info. The whole fight really depends on what Superman facts they go with. Pre Crisis, Cosmic Armor, Prime, 1,000,000, and sword of Superman are way out of Goku's league. Post-Crisis is the most popular Superman and most mainstream. He is right around Goku. I say with a fight Goku could take it. Though Post-Crisis also has some inconsistency problems. That's why this death battle isn't exactly easy since Superman isn't straight forwardly written like Goku.
Superman is the definition of inconsistent sadly. When did they fix the multiplier? Also do they still think its a 5,000% increase on top of each transformtion incorporating this fix? Multiplier mistake aside they still think Vegeta can punch the moon out of orbit =/. They also think Super forms in Sonic the Hedgehog are a 1,000%, thats a 10x boost, increase even though this is stated nowhere and they probably got this idea when Hyper Knuckles and Super Sonic said they had recieved a 1,000x increase in everything, which most likely is just insinuating a massive power increase not meant to be taken literally. This is character dialogue that is negated by Ian Flynn straight up stating that the chaos force is a pool of limitless power. Super Sonic is invulnerable for reason, he has unlimited chaos energy around his body. They also think that Super forms are under a time limit via rings even though that is entirely untrue based on evidence from Sonic Advanced and the fight with Knuckles Enerjak. Super Sonic lasted for an entire week with no ring collection in Advanced and in the fight with Enerjak he lasted for hours. Shadow should have won that fight and this is coming from a huge Vegeta fan. Seriously the biggest face palm moments in that fight are when Shadow doesnt just chaos control Vegeta into the core of the sun. Then Shadow's chaos blast stops after reverting even though he can still use chaos blast in base and its just as strong as in base as it is his super form. As you can probably imagine I dont take Death Battle seriously.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Ignore whatever you see in the prior video with Vegeta.
We had nothing to do with that, didn't watch it, did not base anything on it, etc. We provided an entirely new base level of information for them to go off of.
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::
VegettoEX wrote:Ignore whatever you see in the prior video with Vegeta.
We had nothing to do with that, didn't watch it, did not base anything on it, etc. We provided an entirely new base level of information for them to go off of.
Good.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
VegettoEX wrote:I would assume that folks are referring to physical attacks being these "busting" (ugh, that phrase is driving me nuts...!) attacks, rather than ki-based attacks, and specifically projectiles.
That being said, we've seen Goku infuse his finger with ki when he was blocking Trunks' sword swings right after their mutual arrivals, so there's absolutely nothing out of the question in terms of Goku infusing his fist with some amount of ki to enhance that type of attack.
I think a lot of it comes down to durability. How well could Goku handle a physical hit from a guy like Superman especially the stronger versions? Perhaps Goku does enhance his physical attacks with ki and maybe even his defense with ki and so do his opponents. But Goku is hurt by those attacks and those physical attacks aren't usually breaking up planets (I recall the kai planet getting wrecked but wasn't that more from the ki and only shown as local damage?) and no one in Dragonball has ever shown physical strength thats even close to some of the stuff Superman has done. Best show of physical strength I can remember from DB was Goku and Vegeta holding up a skyscraper but that was end of GT with them being SS4 and they struggled to do it. And I would imagine a guy that can travel so fast that he flys through whole universes and has to be told to stop by God (basically) and can move multiple planets across the universe is probably capable of hitting pretty hard. I don't know how big those mulitple planets were or how big that building was but the Earth is something like 20,000,000,000,000,000x the weight of a large skyscraper like the empire state building so unless there is a better show of physical strength Goku is way out classed there.
Superman has been shown to live through huge explosions and powerful energy attacks and stuff that could compare to the ki attacks of DB(Z/GT) but has Goku shown he can handle the physical power of Superman? Even if Superman for some reason can't hit as powerful as he can lift theres still the option of crushing or ripping Goku apart if he gets a hold of him (which I think he could).
Last edited by dario03 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
