Biggest DB disappointment

[Kid Buu]

I actually would have liked to see Vegeta kill Freeza at least once. Goku kills him in GT, Trunks kills him in the comic, Gohan kills him Movie 12, etc. This is one of the few times I'd like to see Vegeta have a bone thrown at him.

[RandomGuy96]

When I said "for naught" I was referring exclusively to the Namek arc. And his wins were for naught insofar that he does not accomplish either his goal of immortality nor killing Freeza, the only person that really mattered to him as far as getting the kill goes.

Vegeta was a villain. If he killed Freeza and got immortality, that would just be a case of the villain winning. And again, just because you don't kill the main bad guy doesn't mean that what you did was "for naught". By that logic, everybody but Goku, Gohan, and Trunks got shitty treatment.

Again, I already think Vegeta got way too much glory. He got to beat four side villains on Namek, another in the android arc, and beat up the second strongest form of that arc's main villain. Contrast, say, Piccolo. Throughout both arcs, he only got to beat one side villain (and he didn't even get the kill) and beat up the absolute weakest form of the arc's villain. Oh, he also fought evenly with the other arc's villain in an ultra-suppressed form, before said villain went "I'm not really left-handed", transformed, and roflstomped him. Yipee.

[Duo]

I'm not trying to say that he didn't get shafted harder than Piccolo, just calling out the relative futility of his kill count in comparison to numerous other characters. Piccolo at least has Radtiz, who was by far the strongest foe to appear in the story by that point. Half of his Ginyu kills were done to unconscious bodies, for fucks sake.

And yes, many of the characters did get pretty sloppy treatment in the Cell and Buu arcs.

[dbgtFO]

I actually would have liked to see Vegeta kill Freeza at least once. Goku kills him in GT, Trunks kills him in the comic, Gohan kills him Movie 12, etc. This is one of the few times I'd like to see Vegeta have a bone thrown at him.

He had a glorious opportuniy in The plan to eradicate the saiyans films, but I can't remember, if he fought Ghost-Freeza in those films.

[Gaffer Tape]

I don't see how killing Butta and Reacoom is a problem. For one, it demonstrates his character quite effectively. He's ruthless and, at least at *this* point in the story, a pragmatist who sees the needs to dispose of threats by any means necessary without feeding his own ego. Besides, he kills Jheese pretty easily, so you can probably extrapolate he would have killed them too in a straight fight.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not trying to say that he didn't get shafted harder than Piccolo, just calling out the relative futility of his kill count in comparison to numerous other characters. Piccolo at least has Radtiz, who was by far the strongest foe to appear in the story by that point. Half of his Ginyu kills were done to unconscious bodies, for fucks sake.

And yes, many of the characters did get pretty sloppy treatment in the Cell and Buu arcs.

He killed two people while they were down. So what? He also killed four others in straight-up fights in that very same arc, and one via a sneak attack. That's more victories than any other hero in that whole arc.

Killing Zarbon saved Gohan and Krillin, killing Jeice saved them again, and killing 19 saved Goku. He also got to save Gohan and Krillin AGAIN from Guldo, help out Gohan in the beam struggle against Cell, and come up with the plan that killed Buu while also acting as a distraction to make sure it works. How is that 'futile' compared to other characters? Who gets a better deal here? Goku and Gohan? Hell, I'd say Gohan gets a worse deal than him.

Piccolo gets to help kill one guy. Then, later, he gets to kill a Saibaman, and waaaaaaay later, beat up one other guy (I don't really count Imperfect Cell). When he was a bad guy, he also defeated Kami and Krillin. That's a grand total of four wins, one assist. Then that's pretty much it for him outside of the movies. Vegeta, on the other hand, gets to defeat Goku, Yajirobe, Krillin, Gohan, Cui, Dodoria, Zarbon, Jeice, 19, Semi-Perfect Cell, and Pui Pui. He also got to help kill Guldo, Perfect Cell, and Buu. 11 wins, 3 assists. He did not need this many victories.

[Duo]

I'm not really sure what this debate is about or why you're against my statements, but anyways, I'm not talking about anything but the Namek arc at this point, but you're bringing the rest of the series into it. It's very disengaging.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm not really sure what this debate is about or why you're against my statements, but anyways, I'm not talking about anything but the Namek arc at this point, but you're bringing the rest of the series into it. It's very disengaging.

You said Vegeta was too much of a punching bag, and deserved a moment of triumph or two. I pointed out that he had literally dozens of those. You said it didn't matter, because every character he kills was a henchmen, and his kill count was futile in comparison to other characters. I asked which character got a better deal than him aside from Goku and maybe Gohan and pointed out his huge number of victories and assists next to a similar side character, who got a much worse deal.

Toriyama already gave him way too much glory. I'm not sure what else he could possibly do aside from having Vegeta defeat one of the three big bads totally by himself, because he legitimately beat a whole bunch of villains and played a major role in the defeat of both of the main villains after he stopped being a villain himself.

Seriously. What character aside from maybe Goku gets a better deal than Vegeta?

[Duo]

I'm not really sure what this debate is about or why you're against my statements, but anyways, I'm not talking about anything but the Namek arc at this point, but you're bringing the rest of the series into it. It's very disengaging.

You said Vegeta was too much of a punching bag, and deserved a moment of triumph or two. I pointed out that he had literally dozens of those. You said it didn't matter, because every character he kills was a henchmen, and his kill count was futile in comparison to other characters. I asked which character got a better deal than him aside from Goku and maybe Gohan and pointed out his huge number of victories and assists next to a similar side character, who got a much worse deal.

Toriyama already gave him way too much glory. I'm not sure what else he could possibly do aside from having Vegeta defeat one of the three big bads totally by himself, because he legitimately beat a whole bunch of villains and played a major role in the defeat of both of the main villains after he stopped being a villain himself.

Seriously. What character aside from maybe Goku gets a better deal than Vegeta?

Ok, so why is it an argument to you at all that I think Vegeta gets used as a punching bag more than necessary and doesn't get any kills I find to be terribly meaningful? Did I say at any point that other characters weren't shafted as well? If anything, all I'm saying is that Vegeta gets the most screen time devoted to his ass being beaten then anybody else. I generally would prefer that characters besides Goku got spotlight moments, especially in the movies. Does this...upset you somehow?

[RandomGuy96]

Ok, so why is it an argument to you at all that I think Vegeta gets used as a punching bag more than necessary and doesn't get any kills I find to be terribly meaningful? Did I say at any point that other characters weren't shafted as well? If anything, all I'm saying is that Vegeta gets the most screen time devoted to his ass being beaten then anybody else. I generally would prefer that characters besides Goku got spotlight moments, especially in the movies. Does this...upset you somehow?

The assertion that Vegeta didn't get enough glory, which is what you were saying, does annoy me, yes, because I already think he got waaaaaaaaaaay more than he should. Name one character who you think got a better deal than him, aside from Goku.

Vegeta gets an... okay deal in the movies. He gets to defeat an android and play an instrumental role in the defeat of 12, and he's arguably more responsible for Metal Cooler's defeat than Goku. Piccolo also gets a pretty deal here, as does Gohan. But I'd argue that Vegeta gets just as good of a deal as Goku in the series itself, at least the post-Raditz section. He gets his ass beaten 8 times, by Zarbon, Recoome, Freeza, 18, Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell, Majin Buu, and another form of Majin Buu (first battle on Earth doesn't really count), and gets 11 victories to balance it out. By contrast, Goku gets his ass beaten 6 times, by Raditz, Vegeta,Vegeta again (or Ginyu, whatever), Freeza, 19, and Pure Buu, and only gets 5 victories to balance it out.

[Duo]

So basically you're upset that I like a character more than you do. Okay.

[RandomGuy96]

So basically you're upset that I like a character more than you do. Okay.

No, I just get annoyed when people complain that a character who got too much to do got too little to do, because I disagree with them, not because they "like a character more than I do". I have the same problem with Future Trunks.

Again. If you think Vegeta was treated so badly, name one character who you think got a better deal than him. The guy got to kill or defeat twelve characters and play a big role in the defeat of both of the villains he fought after he stopped being a villain himself.

[Duo]

You're trying to have an objective argument on a subject that is purely opinion-based. To participate further would be a silly misuse of our time.

You've also utterly derailed the thread, which I will no longer contribute toward. The end.

[RandomGuy96]

You're trying to have an objective argument on a subject that is purely opinion-based. To participate further would be a silly misuse of our time.

You've also utterly derailed the thread, which I will no longer contribute toward. The end.

Pointing out his victory to loss record and comparing it with other characters after other people complain that he gets a shitty deal compared to them isn't subjective, nor is pointing out how his supposedly futile victories saved the day several times (Zarbon, Jeice, 19), or bringing up his assists.

[JamesOwnz]

I guess we differ on the idea of glory.

I don't think Vegeta got much.. constantly getting his ass beat down doesn't really seem like it to me.. always being a distant 2nd or 3rd.

I know Goku is main character so he is always going to be the strongest but the silliness in how he always left Vegeta so far behind was well that.. silly.

Vegeta finally reaches SSJ and they are even again.. then they go into Room of Spirit and Time and Goku completely destroys Vegeta again in strength enough for him to put up a fight with Perfect Cell... So Vegeta goes right back in and with more then a Year+ of training still doesn't even equal Goku.

Then Buu comes along and they are both SSJ2 we are still led to believe even in that from Goku is much stronger from his fight with Yakon... but anyways they fight and are even which is fine.... until Goku goes SSJ3 completely making fun of everything before.

Nobody got their ass handed to them like Vegeta... not Goku... Not Gohan.. Not Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess we differ on the idea of glory.

I don't think Vegeta got much.. constantly getting his ass beat down doesn't really seem like it to me.. always being a distant 2nd or 3rd.

I know Goku is main character so he is always going to be the strongest but the silliness in how he always left Vegeta so far behind was well that.. silly.

Vegeta finally reaches SSJ and they are even again.. then they go into Room of Spirit and Time and Goku completely destroys Vegeta again in strength enough for him to put up a fight with Perfect Cell... So Vegeta goes right back in and with more then a Year+ of training still doesn't even equal Goku.

Then Buu comes along and they are both SSJ2 we are still led to believe even in that from Goku is much stronger from his fight with Yakon... but anyways they fight and are even which is fine.... until Goku goes SSJ3 completely making fun of everything before.

Nobody got their ass handed to them like Vegeta... not Goku... Not Gohan.. Not Piccolo.

He didn't really get beaten down "constantly", at least not any more than most side characters, and got a lot of victories to balance it out, unlike some certain side characters.

But Goku isn't the strongest. Not even close. That'd be Gohan. Then Gotenks. How did he 'always leave Vegeta so far behind'? At many points, Vegeta was equal or stronger. I suppose he ended up a lot stronger by the end, due purely to possessing an extra form, but he was so far behind Gohan and Gotenks that it didn't even matter.

How? I guess no one got beaten down as badly as Vegeta did against Freeza. But that's about it. Other than that, everyone gets a comparable amount of ass beatings.

But Goku himself is being far surpassed there by Gohan. But yeah, the ROSAT was responsible for many sloppy power ups.

And Goku himself turns out to be a humongous joke compared to the actual villain of the arc. I'm not sure how Vegeta's getting particularly bad treatment compared to him.

[Fionordequester]

I would say it's hard for me to pick a number one, but I do have several that I remember, going from youngest to oldest...

1) Going from Budokai 1 and it's awesome, fully animated cutscenes, to...a board game in Budokai 2, on Christmas. Try picturing 10-14 year old me, on Christmas, being absolutely in love with the series despite never having even watched it on T.V. (I had played all the Legacy of Goku games, watched various AMVs, and loved the heck out of Budokai 1), and eagerly awaiting the conclusion to the story set up by Budokai 1, with even MORE awesome looking cutscenes...and instead...well, just imagine going from this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP6SB4mjpdc

...to THIS...!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDSunsiG4zo

...Needless to say, I was not a happy camper.

2) All the vitriol and flak that Faulconer Productions gets. And I'm not talking about the people who say "it's not my style", or "eh, it doesn't fit the show (even though Yamamoto did basically the same thing for his score, except more theatrical and with better instruments)", but the dudes who think it sounds like Faulconer let his cat run across the keyboard or something like that. I just...DON'T....GET IT!

With all the motifs that FaulconerProductions gave, with all the memorable character themes, with all the passion that went into the score (I don't imagine that doing a wall-to-wall score, with a horribly abusive boss, and under massive time crunches was an easy feat at all!), you really can't find ONE good thing about it? I mean, I dislike the Shunsuke Kikuchi score because I don't think it fits Dragon Ball Z and isn't bombastic or intense enough...but I don't think it's BAD! It's at the very least decent.

3) Kenji Yamamoto. I really wanted to like the new score for Dragon Ball Z Kai, and in fact, it even had an excellent start...but then at some point after the Saiyan Saga, it started to use the same repetitive music over...and over...and over again, to the point where the composer couldn't even be bothered to compose new music for moments like Goku's SSJ transformation, or Vegeta's Death on Namek, or Goku almost dying in the explosion of Planet Namek. It'd be like if in Final Fantasy VI, they used the regular boss theme even in the final battle against Kefka.

And then when I found about Yamamoto being a plagiarist, that was pretty much the final nail in the coffin. And finally...

4) The Shunsuke Kikuchi rescoring of Kai that somehow managed to be even MORE repetitive than Yamamoto's score. At this point, I actually liked Kikuchi better than Yamamoto, so I was actually hoping for the change in scores to be an improvement...but nope. Same problems, only somehow made even worse, and with themes that were very lacking in intensity and punch...

This series really has not been treated well in the musical department, has it?

[Fionordequester]

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread for THIS particular response ...

[Hellspawn28]

I actually would have liked to see Vegeta kill Freeza at least once. Goku kills him in GT, Trunks kills him in the comic, Gohan kills him Movie 12, etc. This is one of the few times I'd like to see Vegeta have a bone thrown at him.

Goku didn't kill him in GT. After Cell and Freeza were broken into pieces, we saw them tied up by the other oni that work in Hell.

[JamesOwnz]

I guess we differ on the idea of glory.

I don't think Vegeta got much.. constantly getting his ass beat down doesn't really seem like it to me.. always being a distant 2nd or 3rd.

I know Goku is main character so he is always going to be the strongest but the silliness in how he always left Vegeta so far behind was well that.. silly.

Vegeta finally reaches SSJ and they are even again.. then they go into Room of Spirit and Time and Goku completely destroys Vegeta again in strength enough for him to put up a fight with Perfect Cell... So Vegeta goes right back in and with more then a Year+ of training still doesn't even equal Goku.

Then Buu comes along and they are both SSJ2 we are still led to believe even in that from Goku is much stronger from his fight with Yakon... but anyways they fight and are even which is fine.... until Goku goes SSJ3 completely making fun of everything before.

Nobody got their ass handed to them like Vegeta... not Goku... Not Gohan.. Not Piccolo.

He didn't really get beaten down "constantly", at least not any more than most side characters, and got a lot of victories to balance it out, unlike some certain side characters.

But Goku isn't the strongest. Not even close. That'd be Gohan. Then Gotenks. How did he 'always leave Vegeta so far behind'? At many points, Vegeta was equal or stronger. I suppose he ended up a lot stronger by the end, due purely to possessing an extra form, but he was so far behind Gohan and Gotenks that it didn't even matter.

How? I guess no one got beaten down as badly as Vegeta did against Freeza. But that's about it. Other than that, everyone gets a comparable amount of ass beatings.

But Goku himself is being far surpassed there by Gohan. But yeah, the ROSAT was responsible for many sloppy power ups.

And Goku himself turns out to be a humongous joke compared to the actual villain of the arc. I'm not sure how Vegeta's getting particularly bad treatment compared to him.

Goku is the strongest at the end of the story.. surpassed by Gohan twice... but Goku is clearly the strongest.. even Vegeta seems to have surpassed Gohan in the end...Goku and Vegeta strongest at the end.

Vegeta didn't get beat down constantly?

He got his ass kicked THREE times in the Namek saga.

Then twice again Cell

Then yes twice again in Buu arc.

I'll compare it to Goku in his Z portion.. I know he is main character so it will be a little lop sided but.

2 in Saiyan

0 in Namek

1 in Cell (Because of heart virus)

0 in Buu

Gohan..

1 in Namek

0 in Cell

2 in Buu (questionable)

Piccolo:

1 in Saiyan

1 in Namek

0 in Cell

0 in Buu (but didn't really fight)