Unpopular/controversial power level/strength opinions?

[freezamite]

This person is obviously not familiar with the series (decently translated to a language he understands, at least) and the info that is provided in the official guidebooks, so instead of pointlessly arguing, why not just point it out and move on?

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

Typo. Meant to say Freeza wasn't fighting seriously

Well, that's true also for when Goku uses it's KkX20. Freezer doesn't start to fight seriously until its too late for him.
Even if he wasn't fighting him seriously, Goku would've died if he wasn't using KKx10 since the beginning.
Freezer didn't know anything about KK, and we know that Freezer's hits were (even if he wasn't fighting seriously and only using a portion of his maximum ki) strong enough to deal serious damage to Goku KKx10. A single blow of those would've killed Goku without KK.
Besides that, when Goku increases it's strength to KKx20 it takes Freezer off-guard. A 2x increase takes him off-guard while he anticipated a 10x increase? That's two pretty solid reasons to think that Goku was using KK x10 since the beginning.

True, I'm out. I'll leave you with the suggestion of actually reading the manga, and guide books. The guide books are translated here in the translations sections:
http://web.archive.org/web/201203221737 ... entai.com/
One more thing before I go though. Kaioken always has an aura. Goku doesn't have one when he's kicking Freeza's face.

I've read the manga enough times to identify a KK aura, and to differentiate it from other auras. KK's aura is an aura that is always present while KK is used, Goku doesn't have any aura while he tries to kick Freezer at the page you were saying KK was activated. When using KK, Goku's eyes are alway WHITE if the aura is drawn, and that was of course because the aura changed Goku's overall "colours" from dark black to red. If you look at the second image, Goku's eyes are clearly black, so another proof that this isn't a KK aura by any means.
KK x10 should have had an aura, but Toriyama didn't draw it, maybe because he wanted to cause an impression to the reader when the revelation of Goku already using the KKx10 was stated by Kaito himself.

[TheMightyOzaru]

This person is obviously not familiar with the series (decently translated to a language he understands, at least) and the info that is provided in the official guidebooks, so instead of pointlessly arguing, why not just point it out and move on?

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

I'd suggest not saying such things.

[freezamite]

This person is obviously not familiar with the series (decently translated to a language he understands, at least) and the info that is provided in the official guidebooks, so instead of pointlessly arguing, why not just point it out and move on?

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

I'd suggest not saying such things.

He was the one who said it first. It's not a good way of discussing, of course, but I'm just defending myself from his accusations.

[hleV]

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

But you quite obviously aren't, I can't tell whether it's your ignorance or arrogance (or both) that won't let you see it.

I've read the manga enough times to identify a KK aura, and to differentiate it from other auras. KK's aura is an aura that is always present while KK is used

[TheMightyOzaru]

He was the one who said it first. It's not a good way of discussing, of course, but I'm just defending myself from his accusations.

No you're not. Your insulting his intelligence by claiming you're smarter.

[Kaboom]

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

I'd suggest not saying such things.

Me too.

Attitudes in check, people. That goes for everyone.

[TheGmGoken]

So you honestly think Freeza is equal to Cell in terms of power

[freezamite]

Running of a discussion instead of giving any proof? I'm sure that in terms of knowledge I'm above you

But you quite obviously aren't, I can't tell whether it's your ignorance or arrogance (or both) that won't let you see it.

I've read the manga enough times to identify a KK aura, and to differentiate it from other auras. KK's aura is an aura that is always present while KK is used

Ok, you got me here with those images, but they still doesn't explain how freezer could anticipate that KK that was activated at that page.
KK activating at that point makes no sense at all, and by supporting his argument with those images, you also have supported mine because his point was that Goku didn't have KK activated when he kicked freezer's face... because there was no aura drawn at there.

The facts are those:
Freezer didn't know what KK was.
If KK was activated at that page, that would mean that Goku resisted a hit Freezer gave him with enough strength to beat him at KKx10, which directly destroys every single fight drawn until then and even after that moment.
Freezer reaction hasn't any sense either. He can anticipate a 10x increase and not a 2x increase afterwards?

So you honestly think Freeza is equal to Cell in terms of power

Yes. It's a bit late today, and tomorrow I won't be able to post until noon, but of course I'm planning to support what I'm saying using not only manga facts, but also some of those guides. Of course, at the same time I will demonstrate that other guides are wrong in some of the things that are given as a fact.

No you're not. Your insulting his intelligence by claiming you're smarter.

Since when having more knowledge about something makes anyone smarter? This doesn't have any sense...

[TheMightyOzaru]

You seem to be under the impression that Kaioken times 10 doesn't have an aura. If I may ask, why does Kaioken x20 have one? It's inconsistent, and quite frankly, ridiculous to suggest that Goku's using Kaioken all the damn time:

Spoiler:

[hleV]

I didn't support nobody's idea, I just pointed out that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[rereboy]

Kaio mentions that Goku had been using Kaioken pretty much the entire time when Yamcha suggest that he could still rely on Kaioken (even though it didn't actually look like it), so...

[Darkprince410]

KKx10 was implied since the beginning. It wasn't activated at any part of the fight, which means that Goku used it since the beginning.

It wasn't implied that he was using it from the get go. Tenshinhan brings up that Goku still has the Kaiou-ken as his trump card when he learns that Freeza is beating him with 50% of his full power, and then Kaiou replies that he's already using it. Since we see that Goku is now using a distinctive aura by this point in the fight, something that he wasn't using prior to that point of the fight, Kaiou's comment moreso implies that Goku has already started using it to try and fight 50% Freeza, but it hasn't been working, not that he's been using it the entire time.

Your argument that Freeza would have killed Goku with his blows if he wasn't using the 10x Kaiou-ken stems from you believing he was only at 300,000. If you look at it from how the manga and the guidebooks lay it out, Goku was essentially even with Freeza prior to either of them pulling out all the stops. Goku wasn't using the Kaiou-ken and Freeza was using the same level of power he used to kill Vegeta, leaving them both in the 3,000,000 range. When Freeza upped the ante and went to 50%, Goku retaliated with starting to use the 10x Kaiou-ken (as we start seeing the aura after Freeza increases his power), but the gap was still too much.

[Saiga]

Kaio mentions that Goku had been using Kaioken pretty much the entire time when Yamcha suggest that he could still rely on Kaioken (even though it didn't actually look like it), so...

No, he doesn't say that. He only says that Goku had already been using it, and before that point we do see Goku use the Kaio-ken aura (just not what level he is using) at a few points.

[freezamite]

You seem to be under the impression that Kaioken times 10 doesn't have an aura. If I may ask, why does Kaioken x20 have one? It's inconsistent, and quite frankly, ridiculous to suggest that Goku's using Kaioken all the damn time:

Spoiler:

As I said, it could be for many reasons. To give the readers the impression of Goku having any chance to win and then cause a bigger effect on them or maybe because Toriyama wanted to imply that KKx10 was totally dominated by Goku to a point where he could use it without most of the direct drawbacks KK has with it.
The fight is drawn ENTIRELY as if KK was activated since the very beginning, because if it wasn't then you can answer me four really simple questions:
How did Freezer learn about the KKx10, and why he didn't know anything about the KKx20?
How could he react to a sudden increase of Ki of 10x, and not to an increase of 20x?
Why anyone watching the fight notices that Goku has multiplied his power by 10?
Why does Goku never say "kaioh ken" if he activates it on-screen?

I didn't support nobody's idea, I just pointed out that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Just because I forgot that at two very concrete pages (one of them being about Goku deactivating the technique) Toriyama didn't draw the KK aura? But you came in help of someone who was saying that if an aura isn't drawn, then there's no kaioh-ken...
It's pretty obvious what you've tried to do.

No, he doesn't say that. He only says that Goku had already been using it, and before that point we do see Goku use the Kaio-ken aura (just not what level he is using) at a few points.

A KK aura that's only drawn on flight scenes is not a KK aura, and besides that, not only the context of the fight, but also the fact that there's not a single KK aura with Goku's eyes being black, supports the fact that KK had to be activated at the beginning.
If you don't think so, I'm sure you will answer my questions and explain me how that was even possible.

Your argument that Freeza would have killed Goku with his blows if he wasn't using the 10x Kaiou-ken stems from you believing he was only at 300,000. If you look at it from how the manga and the guidebooks lay it out, Goku was essentially even with Freeza prior to either of them pulling out all the stops. Goku wasn't using the Kaiou-ken and Freeza was using the same level of power he used to kill Vegeta, leaving them both in the 3,000,000 range. When Freeza upped the ante and went to 50%, Goku retaliated with starting to use the 10x Kaiou-ken (as we start seeing the aura after Freeza increases his power), but the gap was still too much.

Nope. Let's suppose you're true. Goku is at 3.000.000 and is fighting against Freezer at also 3.000.000
When Freezer uses his 50%, he hits Goku BEFORE ANY AURA WAS EVER SEEN. If KK activates at chapter 312 page 10, then there are at least 3 pages that completely obliterates the manga's rules given for the fights.
How could Goku survive 2 hits of Freezer's 50% power, if at that point he was hitting him strong enough to defeat him even when he activates KKx10?
KK was activated BEFORE the whole fight, otherwise, it makes no sense to activate it at any point.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Kaio mentions that Goku had been using Kaioken pretty much the entire time when Yamcha suggest that he could still rely on Kaioken (even though it didn't actually look like it), so...

No... No he doesn't. He merely says he's been using it. Which was clear as day since he had a bold aura. A detail which Freezamite fails to acknowledge. I sense much Freeza fanboy in you Freezamite.

[freezamite]

Kaio mentions that Goku had been using Kaioken pretty much the entire time when Yamcha suggest that he could still rely on Kaioken (even though it didn't actually look like it), so...

No... No he doesn't. He merely says he's been using it. Which was clear as day since he had a bold aura. A detail which Freezamite fails to acknowledge. I sense much Freeza fanboy in you Freezamite.

You can answer my questions if you're so sure of what you say. Besides, there's also this page, the one that follows the one you pointed to me, with Freezer having AN EQUALLY BOLD aura than Goku, look:


Is Freezer also using KK? How did he learn it? O_O

[Saiga]

I don't even understand you. Why does Goku not having black eyes in those scenes support him not activating the Kaio-ken at that point? He had white eyes during the Kaio-ken x20 scene.

[freezamite]

I don't even understand you. Why does Goku not having black eyes in those scenes support him not activating the Kaio-ken at that point? He had white eyes during the Kaio-ken x20 scene.

No, it's precisely because he has black eyes during the "KK aura" shot that it wasn't a KK aura. White eyes can be drawn to express fear or surprise on people that would normally have black eyes. Not every time we see a white eye on a character with black eyes means that KK was activated, but ALWAYS THAT KK WAS ACTIVATED, Goku's eyes were white.
But that's not my point, really.
KK activated at the middle of the fight doesn't make any sense because:
1. No one notices it, and it's a huge change.
2. No one reacts to it. If no one reacts to it, it means that those "reactions" were there since the very beginning.
3. Freezer should have to know exactly what the KK is, and how it works. Otherwise, the fight doesn't make any sense even at the most basic level.

[Darkprince410]

You seem to be under the impression that Kaioken times 10 doesn't have an aura. If I may ask, why does Kaioken x20 have one? It's inconsistent, and quite frankly, ridiculous to suggest that Goku's using Kaioken all the damn time:

Spoiler:

As I said, it could be for many reasons. To give the readers the impression of Goku having any chance to win and then cause a bigger effect on them or maybe because Toriyama wanted to imply that KKx10 was totally dominated by Goku to a point where he could use it without most of the direct drawbacks KK has with it.
The fight is drawn ENTIRELY as if KK was activated since the very beginning, because if it wasn't then you can answer me four really simple questions:
How did Freezer learn about the KKx10, and why he didn't know anything about the KKx20?
How could he react to a sudden increase of Ki of 10x, and not to an increase of 20x?
Why anyone watching the fight notices that Goku has multiplied his power by 10?
Why does Goku never say "kaioh ken" if he activates it on-screen?

1) Who said that he learned anything about them?
2) His strength was so vastly above the 10x Kaiou-ken that it wasn't a concern to him. With Goku using the 20x Kaiou-ken, that bumped his battle power high enough that he could actually keep up and hurt Freeza, even if it was only temporary. It's like how Goku attempted to fight Vegeta in his base form initially but wasn't able to get anywhere because Vegeta was over twice as strong as he was, but once he used the Kaiou-ken to close the gap considerably, he was able to land a few blows on him before Vegeta regained the advantage.
3) If you're asking why no one commented on his strength increasing following him using the Kaiou-ken 10x, Piccolo does actually suggest that he noticed Goku's battle power increase, just that it wasn't enough to defeat Freeza.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P13.2
Context: as Freeza beats up on Goku
Piccolo: “Th-this is bad…There’s too much of a gap between the power they were hiding…”

This basically means that he was aware beforehand that neither were going all out, but at that moment, they weren't hiding any power anymore (He wasn't aware of Freeza only being at 50% and Goku only using the 10x) and that the gap between Goku and Freeza was just too high. If Goku's power didn't increase at all between when he was fighting Freeza before and when he was fighting him at 50%, then he wouldn't make any comment about Goku having hid strength.

4) He didn't verbally activate the Kaiou-ken 20x either, but there was a visible formation of an aura as is indicative of the Kaiou-ken.

No, he doesn't say that. He only says that Goku had already been using it, and before that point we do see Goku use the Kaio-ken aura (just not what level he is using) at a few points.

A KK aura that's only drawn on flight scenes is not a KK aura, and besides that, not only the context of the fight, but also the fact that there's not a single KK aura with Goku's eyes being black, supports the fact that KK had to be activated at the beginning.
If you don't think so, I'm sure you will answer my questions and explain me how that was even possible.

A Kaiou-ken aura is a Kaiou-ken aura, regardless of whether or not it's drawn in flight scenes. Besides, wouldn't the fact that his eyes weren't white (as you say) be proof that he wasn't using the Kaiou-ken when he and Freeza were fighting initially?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Kaio mentions that Goku had been using Kaioken pretty much the entire time when Yamcha suggest that he could still rely on Kaioken (even though it didn't actually look like it), so...

No... No he doesn't. He merely says he's been using it. Which was clear as day since he had a bold aura. A detail which Freezamite fails to acknowledge. I sense much Freeza fanboy in you Freezamite.

You can answer my questions if you're so sure of what you say. Besides, there's also this page, the one that follows the one you pointed to me, with Freezer having AN EQUALLY BOLD aura than Goku, look:


Is Freezer also using KK? How did he learn it? O_O

The difference between Goku and Freeza is that Goku never has a bold aura unless he uses Kaioken. Freeza's is bold because he's far stronger than Goku. Honestly, your assumptions about Goku using Kaioken ALL THE TIME are completely baseless. The Daizenshuu 7 is quite clear about both Goku's and Freeza's power: