Unpopular/controversial power level/strength opinions?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Post them here. And don't berate people for having weird ideas.

Anyway one of mine: SSJ2 Vegeto < SSJG Goku < 70% Bills < SSJ4 Gogeta < SSJ3 Vegeto < 100% Bills

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have a contraversial idea, if that counts for anything. I think the base Saiyans can put about 1/5 of their Ssj energy into their base forms, at maximum, to power themselves up without transforming. This is how I made sense of GT.

[Godo]

I believe that opinions should be backed up by the reasoning behind them.
Just throwing them out in equation form doesn't give much fodder for discussion.

[VegettoEX]

I believe that opinions should be backed up by the reasoning behind them.
Just throwing them out in equation form doesn't give much fodder for discussion.

Agreed!

My seemingly "unpopular" opinion - at least outside of my own community - is that battle powers and strength comparisons are so much the antithesis of what Toriyama was writing about that if you focus on them to any significant degree you're doing the story and your own fandom a huge disservice. Time and time again it's shown that all of the things that go into a character are what allow them to triumph in the end, and that by focusing on such a small portion of the show, you've missed what the author has been saying to you for 500+ chapters.

[Kaboom]

This stuff doesn't generate much fallout and flak here on Kanzenshuu, because... well, we don't LET it. But there's a few key stances of mine that people on other forums just seem to foam at the mouth whenever I mention.


There's my believing that Gogeta is only a step or two behind Vegetto in power, rather than only a smidgen stronger than Gotenks like many insist he "has to be." Or that the Saiyans didn't surpass Freeza's (or Piccolo and Kaioshin in the Boo arc) power in their normal/"base" states. Or that friggin' Gotenks (and subsequently Gohan and "Evil" Boo in his same neighborhood of power) isn't necessarily hundreds of times stronger than everyone before him — my personal stance of considering him only about twice as strong as Goku gets shot down repeatedly. Or that Dabra is actually weaker than SSJ Gohan (that one's even got some official backing, but who cares about that?).


So basically a lot of typical Majin Boo arc stuff. Toriyama obviously had a bit of a return to form in the arc, where he let things get more goofy which resulted in some in-universe elements like power comparisons being less clear and open to some interpretation. I usually try to find reasonable and comfortable compromises between extremes, but people don't always like that.

Oh, I'm also usually one to use and even defend official battle power numbers when they make even a small lick of sense or don't blatantly contradict something (like a lot of the newly-translated numbers from that Movie 3 guidebook and cards and stuff). People often don't like it when those numbers clash with their made-up system of "rules" about gaps and percentages though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I believe that opinions should be backed up by the reasoning behind them.
Just throwing them out in equation form doesn't give much fodder for discussion.

Is the directed at me? If so I have a reason for my theory. It makes sense of GT despite Battle of Gods claiming base Goku is weaker than Freeza. I also did this in order to put Ssj Goku above Kaioshin and still make Goku within a general range of 800 kiris in base.

[hleV]

Android arc Piccolo is around base Saiyan's level of strength before fusing with Kami.

[dbzfan7]

Vegeta's base was stronger than Goku's in Battle of Gods.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think Mecha Freeza was somewhat stronger than Goku, but not enough to actually defeat him. Despite the fact that he gained a nice power-up, I still think Cold was needed just to make sure he'd win. Too bad he wasn't up against the same Goku he fought.

After training on Kaio's for six days, I see Piccolo above Nail's 42,000 Battle Power.

[Saiga]

A few of mine that I think are pretty unpopular:

*Pre-majin SS2 Vegeta was stronger than Cell Games SS2 Gohan
*South Kaioshin is not as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
*Super Saiyan Gotenks is weaker than Fat Boo and Super Saiyan 3 Goku, being on par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta

Uh... trying to think of one that doesn't involve a Super Saiyan 2 in some way Maybe...

*The Super Saiyan kids are stronger than Piccolo AND weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan (neither seems unpopular on it's own, but both at once seems rarer).
*Piccolo wasn't a great deal stronger after his training on Kaio's.

That's all I can think of for now.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I find the ability of weaker characters to damage stronger ones is much greater in most cases than the series lets on, that thesis occasionally validated in the series itself, and praise almost every instance Toei exercises that malleability.

Oh wow, look at all the strength comparisons that renders completely moot.

[khalildh]

I have a contraversial idea, if that counts for anything. I think the base Saiyans can put about 1/5 of their Ssj energy into their base forms, at maximum, to power themselves up without transforming. This is how I made sense of GT.

I tried to use this type of explanation for the Android Arc... It didn't turn out well for the Humans in either case.

[Godo]

I believe that opinions should be backed up by the reasoning behind them.
Just throwing them out in equation form doesn't give much fodder for discussion.

Is the directed at me? If so I have a reason for my theory. It makes sense of GT despite Battle of Gods claiming base Goku is weaker than Freeza. I also did this in order to put Ssj Goku above Kaioshin and still make Goku within a general range of 800 kiris in base.

You didn't include equations, did you?
But to emphasize more, I believe as well that anyone replying should back up their opinions to get the discussion going.
An example would be my contribution here:

I believe that Piccolo was stronger than Kaioshin. Not by a huge amount, but enough.
This is considering that I believe that it was the Kami in Piccolo which made him forfeit the match, since, y'know, one wouldn't fight their own god/boss, whatever.
If I were to fight a heavenly being, even though I was strong, I too would forfeit the match out of respect and also fear.

I believe that Piccolo surpassed Cell with #17 absorbed by a good amount, although he didn't come very near Perfect Cell's power.
Considering how he did compared to Trunks and Vegeta, he would be weaker than them, but still in the same tier (as in, they believe that they have a chance against Perfect Cell's resting power, at least Vegeta seems to think so).

Going by how utterly shocked Kaioshin is by the power of a Full Power SSJ, and considering that the power of a Full Power SSJ is above Perfect Cell's resting power, I'd say that Kaioshin was weaker than that.

Including that Piccolo has some kind of training done from when he participated in the Cell Games until he was up against Kaioshin, I'd just chalk it up to Piccolo backing out due to respect and fear.

By the above message, there is a lot to be discussed if one disagrees, and it also lessens the chance of someone just throwing out a "Nu-uh" as a response to my reply.
If someone decides to disagree, they have a lot of material to go trough and also making a disagreement based upon the facts and thought process.

But yes, the addition which you included now actually makes the whole thing to make more sense. The more information you add, the more likely it is that I would accept or at least respect your opinion.
And to add, it wasn't directed to you directly, just generally to anyone.

[Kakarot88]

I only have 2:

SS3 Goku was retconned to be more powerful than ultimate Gohan hence the whole creation of Orginal Boo etc. I believe this because Toriyama upped the ante per every other villain and did so with Boo plus in terms of the franchise as a whole all the ads etc for Battle of Gods hyped up a being stronger than SS3 Goku, Movie 13 Goku was the most powerful, GT did not even care about Ultimate Gohan, Goku wants to fight strong people and so Original Boo was reincarnated. Plus when Gotenks absorbed Boo reverts to Piccolo absorbed Boo Goku says he is disapointed and "Even Gohan can beat you now." The whole smaller than a flea arg makes sense too cuz Vegeta and Goku have no idea what being in Boo has done to them and if there Ki will return hence why "they will die like they are now." And if Kid Boo is supposed to be so much weaker than Super Boo why make a point that Goku says he could have beat fat boo and then have fat boo fight original boo and get his ass handed to him? The whole thing is a convoluted point taht over analysis leads to certain rationalizations and conclusions...but it's a kid story: end of series strongest guy fights strongest villain and wins...Goku is supposed to be the strongest (aside from the Cell arc) he really always has been. Plus all franchise material touts Goku as the strongest and there is even this:

Original Boo is stronger that Super Boo. I believe this again because of how Toriyama upped the ante per villain and was less concerned with Battle Power scaling than the overall story as a whole. Goku ends the series and is number 1 hero becuase he fought and defeated the number one villain. It's a kids story and is the obvious simplest answer: strongest guy beats strongest bad guy...no convoluted power scaling to arrive at that just slack jawed acceptance kind of like how I accept the dragon balls grant wishes.

[Shineman]

I don't know if this refers as unpopular beliefs or anything but..

Ssj4 Goku is stronger than Vegetto (General) and SsjG Goku.
Beers is around equal or stronger than Bebi Vegeta (General).

[TheMightyOzaru]

I have a contraversial idea, if that counts for anything. I think the base Saiyans can put about 1/5 of their Ssj energy into their base forms, at maximum, to power themselves up without transforming. This is how I made sense of GT.

I tried to use this type of explanation for the Android Arc... It didn't turn out well for the Humans in either case.

I should probably mention that this power up is only possible after mastering Ssj IMO. I don't really see why this would be necessary in the cyborg arc.

[B]

All of Buu's forms get stronger regardless of who is absorbed when. The "good" Mr. Buu is the weakest form and the original Genuine Buu is the strongest. It's pretty funny when we have people dissecting what Vegeta means when he says Genuine Buu is "puny" and we have to even check the original Japanese word to be clear about it.

Goku and Vegeta eventually overpower Gohan. They live to fight, he does not, they both closed the gap during peace times while Gohan pursued his interests. It's simple.

And I don't know how "unpopular" it is, but when Vegeta charges at Beers in retaliation for Bulma, there's no comment on how powerful he is. He gets angry and unleashes his all on the guy, like many other characters before him.

[goku the krump dancer]

A few of mine that I think are pretty unpopular:

*Pre-majin SS2 Vegeta was stronger than Cell Games SS2 Gohan
*South Kaioshin is not as powerful as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
*Super Saiyan Gotenks is weaker than Fat Boo and Super Saiyan 3 Goku, being on par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Vegeta

I agree with all of this.

I also agree with Godo in that Piccolo is stronger than Kaioshin and only backed down out respect.

I also think Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks, if they rev'd up to full power he might have some trouble but he still takes it with medium effort.

[TheMightyOzaru]

All of Buu's forms get stronger regardless of who is absorbed when. The "good" Mr. Buu is the weakest form and the original Genuine Buu is the strongest. It's pretty funny when we have people dissecting what Vegeta means when he says Genuine Buu is "puny" and we have to even check the original Japanese word to be clear about it.

Goku and Vegeta eventually overpower Gohan. They live to fight, he does not, they both closed the gap during peace times while Gohan pursued his interests. It's simple.

And I don't know how "unpopular" it is, but when Vegeta charges at Beers in retaliation for Bulma, there's no comment on how powerful he is. He gets angry and unleashes his all on the guy, like many other characters before him.

Just thought I'd mention that Super Buu being stronger has a lot more behind it than Vegeta claiming Pure Buu is puny .

[DBZGTKOSDH]

• The 5 Kaioshin are weaker than the Boo arc Super Saiyans.
• Before merging with Nail, Piccolo was much weaker than Nail, but stronger than the average Namekian Warriors, which is why Nail was impressed.
• Pseudo Super Saiyan gives the same x50 boost like normal Super Saiyan.
• During the beginning of the Artificial Humans arc, the 3 Earthlings have surpassed the million, but are still weaker than the base Saiyans. Piccolo is far stronger than the base Saiyans, but even farer weaker than the Super Saiyans. #19 & #20 were always above the base Saiyans, but never surpassed Piccolo.
• Super Saiyan Grade 2 makes the user x75 stronger than his base, Super Saiyan Grade 3 is x95, and Legendary Super Saiyan is x125.
• Mastering Super Saiyan makes the Saiyans x5 stronger in base (not including the training gains).
• M8 Goku & Gohan are weaker than CG Goku & Gohan, but they have mastered Super Saiyan. Vegeta & Trunks are the same as they were after their 1st RoSaT trip, Piccolo is somewhere between pre & post RoSaT, and Broli is weaker than Full Power Perfect Cell. However, in M10, Broli is stronger than Super Perfect Cell, and Bio-Broli is slightly stronger than Broli.
• Future Trunks & Vegeta mastered Super Saiyan after their 2nd trip inside the RoSaT, but they didn't get the same power boost as Goku & Gohan did because they didn't do sparring.
• SS Goten & Trunks are stronger than SS Future Trunks & Piccolo. That's because they accidentally mastered Super Saiyan years before, and sparred a lot.
• Dabra is weaker than SS Gohan, since I believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan against him, and Vegeta acts like Gohan is strong enough to beat him, but it was taking too long because he didn't train.
• Gohan didn't lose any power after the 7 years. The reason he got weaker is because his skills dropped a lot (to the point it was taking him too long to beat opponents weaker than him, like Dabra), and because he couldn't use his rage boost as easily as he could in the past.
• SS2 Vegeta (pre-Majin) is weaker than Raged SS2 Gohan. Vegeta also never lost the power-up he received from Babidi.
• Janenba (both forms) is stronger than Fat Boo, but much weaker than Evil Boo.
• Hildegarn is stronger than U. Gohan & SS3 Goku. The reason he lost to Goku is because his durability sucks a lot, which is why he has to turn into a ghost to avoid damage.
• Base Gotenks (post) is stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta, but not stronger than SS Gotenks (pre). Which makes SS & SS3 Gotenks, U. Gohan, and Evil Boo far stronger than SS3 Goku & Pure Boo.
• Base Vegetto is stronger than Gotenks Boo, SS3 Gogeta, and U. Gohan. However, he is only weaker than Gohan Boo.
• Super Saiyan God is a x750.000.000 multiplier, while Golden Oozaru is a x40.000 & Super Saiyan 4 is x3.400.000.
• Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than SS4 Gogeta.