Bardock TV Special vs Dragon Ball Minus

[TheGmGoken]

Ok. This might be nitpicking. Infact it is nitpicking. But one of my biggest issues with Dragonball Minus is Bardock's amour. Yea Kaboom is kinda right that they're now two separate versions of Bardock now(One for the Anime and One for the Manga. Though I disagree on him saying there is no need to compare them) and Bardock could have easily changed his amour(Would't make sense since he can't leave the planet so why would he change. Unless he cares for the smell ). But c'mon now.





Now I know Toriyama doesn't have the best memory and most likely don't watch DB everyday. But he RE-READ THE MANGA for BoG right? So he could't remember Bardock's amour? Every single media source of Bardock has this amour. EVEN HIS OWN MANGA. IMHO I think when he drew that panel he had the Anime Special in his mind but he clearly forgotten it by now. It just bothers me so much. It makes me sad since it's just a little thing. I gotten over how crappy DBM is and learn to deal with it just like I did with BoG but I can't get over that damn amour. Like no one is going to think of Bardock in that amour no matter if they read minus(Unless they've never seen The special). Obviously a few people might prefer him in that amour. But seriously. How can Toriyama forget what his OWN characters are wearing. Yes I know Bardock isn't really Toriyama's character(Well now it is) to a degree. But Toriyama design him over that Rough Draft Bardock.

Although I didn't like Minus, you have to admit that Bardock was treated more as a special person in FOG. Gained magical powers, more powerful than most Saiyans of his class, etc.

I agree to this to a degree. It's true Bardock was treated special(Mainly cause he's Goku's dad and was the focal point of the story). But that scene at the Saiyan bar. Made him seem less special. Either though at full power Bardock could kill most of them. They laugh at him cause he is a lower class warrior. Which made Bardock seem weak IMHO. From that point forward Bardock seemed weak. I do agree that before though Bardock was getting that MCD(Main Character disease). Though the magical powers was more of a "HAHAHA BITCH! You might kill me but you're fucked now mutha fucka!" gift from that race rather than a "power". Seeing as EOB he doesn't have them no more. I suspect they was only to show Bardock's race death. Also Bardock being more powerful than most Saiyans in his class happened in Minus as well. Toriyama said he was a strong low class but could't get promoted(Assuming power wise). Though in the special Bardock was close to 10,000. Which means he was stronger than ALL low class warriors.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is seriously bashing for the shake of bashing. You think he would wear a broken & dirty armor for a month? C'mon now. One thing I love in Toriyama's works is that he changes the character's clothes from time to time, which gives a realistic feeling.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't like the new armor either, but if anything, it makes more sense than you give it credit for. The armor with the "wing" pads is always mentioned to be a newer model. So when the month passes and he needs a battle jacket to wear for that big battle, he's forced to grab an older model since Freeza obviously isn't going to be giving the Saiyans new stuff when he's about to blow them up.

[TheGmGoken]

This is seriously bashing for the shake of bashing. You think he would wear a broken & dirty armor for a month? C'mon now. One thing I love in Toriyama's works is that he changes the character's clothes from time to time, which gives a realistic feeling.

As I said. I'm over DbM and just accept it for what it is. I don't bash the plot no more. I just had an issue with the armor. So no I'm not bashing just to bash. As I said it's just a nitpick. Besides Toriyama isn't the only author to change character design. I don't see how that makes him lovable. Also I did say well implied that I wouldn't be shocked if he changed it. I'm saying I hate the armor he's wearing. Just my opinion on the design. Also if I recall don't most characters just wash or make a outfit that's the same. Why would they randomly run out of thar style of armour.

Is it bashing for the sake of bashing when people complained about SS GOD design?

[Gaffer Tape]

A disagreement of design is one thing, but I can't really understand the rationale behind getting mad over the armor. People do change clothes. At different points in the series, Vegeta wore about every style of armor imaginable (four different styles altogether). So why is it even remotely implausible that Bardock would wear two different armor styles?

[TheGmGoken]

A disagreement of design is one thing, but I can't really understand the rationale behind getting mad over the armor. People do change clothes. At different points in the series, Vegeta wore about every style of armor imaginable (four different styles altogether). So why is it even remotely implausible that Bardock would wear two different armor styles?

Armour is part of the design is it not? I'm stating my opinionson the design. I don't like the armour nor did I see a need not to use the onr in the original. No I'm not saying he should had drew Bardock the way I liked it as that's stupid. I'm giving my opinion on the design . I like Gine design as it reminds me of Teen Goten

[Gaffer Tape]

I just meant it sounded like you were upset that it changed rather than because of the design itself. If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

[Herms]

We've had two alternate versions of Trunks' history for years, but I don't see anyone arguing over which version of THAT is better or more worthwhile.

I don't know, I've seen loads and loads of people say the Trunks TV special is way better than the manga side-story. But the Trunks manga side-story doesn't seem to attract the sort of ire that DB Minus is getting, for some reason. Maybe because DB Minus is only just now coming out, years after the anime special. But DB Minus and Trunks: the Story seem pretty equivalent to me in terms of just being kind of "blah", in a "well, here's a few pages of backstory" sort of way.

[TheGmGoken]

I just meant it sounded like you were upset that it changed rather than because of the design itself. If I misunderstood that, I apologize.

Honestly a bit of both. But main issue is his design seems a bit off due to artstyle.

[Attitudefan]

Maybe in power but he becomes a huge target and is very slow.

Pretty sure Goku says Vegeta doesn't get any slower as Big Monkey.

He didn't get any faster either, now did he? They could still take 'I'm down! He wasn't that quick beforehand anyways!

Hey, GMGoken, that comparison of the two mangas from Minus and DBZ goes to show how much Toriyama has declined in his style. Look at Goku's mother, her face specifically, vs Bardock's face in the original manga. Goku's mother has too big of a head, the eyes are too far from the nose and a very flat looking body. Maaaaaan, it looks like it is drawn by two different people with the older art being the better one.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, Minus's art is pretty crappy.

[Mewzard]

Sometimes artists' styles change over time. I mean look at Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Over 25 years the manga's been going on, and it went from:



to



*a few years old at this point, but it gets the point across*

Sometimes, artstyles just change, but I wouldn't use nostalgia for the old as an excuse to dislike it.

That said, we don't really get a chance to adjust and open to it because Toriyama's not active as an artist anymore.

[The Monkey King]

Sometimes artists' styles change over time. I mean look at Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Over 25 years the manga's been going on, and it went from:

*a few years old at this point, but it gets the point across*

Sometimes, artstyles just change, but I wouldn't use nostalgia for the old as an excuse to dislike it.

That said, we don't really get a chance to adjust and open to it because Toriyama's not active as an artist anymore.

I really wish people would stop using the 'nostalgia' argument to try and brush off any genuine complaints people have towards things.

Toriyama's art style has gotten worse and no longer suits Dragon Ball, they're all way too skinny.
These are supposed to be martial artists who have pushed their bodies to their physical limit and the results of doing so are very evident.
For example lets look at Gohan and Vegeta.
Then:




And now:


There's only so much you can chalk up to nostalgia.
Anyone who thinks the way Toriyama's drawings of DBZ characters is the same quality of as it once was is deluded.

[Flame Dragon]

And now:


There's only so much you can chalk up to nostalgia.
Anyone who thinks the way Toriyama's drawings of DBZ characters is the same quality of as it once was is deluded.

Wow that Vegeta drawing is disproportionate as hell. Fugly!

[B]

Gohan is a nerd. The Cell arc is over and he's not the next Broly. I don't understand how you can sit there and not understand the concept of artistic license, in regards to drawing Gohan as a bookish scholar and not a fighter.

I don't even know where that Vegeta piece is from.

[Gaffer Tape]

We've had two alternate versions of Trunks' history for years, but I don't see anyone arguing over which version of THAT is better or more worthwhile.

I don't know, I've seen loads and loads of people say the Trunks TV special is way better than the manga side-story. But the Trunks manga side-story doesn't seem to attract the sort of ire that DB Minus is getting, for some reason. Maybe because DB Minus is only just now coming out, years after the anime special. But DB Minus and Trunks: the Story seem pretty equivalent to me in terms of just being kind of "blah", in a "well, here's a few pages of backstory" sort of way.

It's funny. I'd actually been thinking about that since Minus came out and realized that, yeah, Trunks: The Story really isn't any different. And since then it's actually lowered my opinion of the latter. Sure, I'd always liked the TV version better, but I guess the manga part was easier to swallow just because it didn't need as much fleshing out of anything since it largely focused on a character we already knew. But seeing it through the lens of DB Minus, it does become really obvious that Toriyama just can't effectively tell a direct prequel story. He just throws some random spattering exposition into a few pages. It really took Toei to take Trunks: The Story and actually make it a story.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

A big reason the Bardock & Trunks TV Specials were better than the manga ones is because of their length. The anime specials had much more time to tell the story (50 minutes), while the manga specials would have lasted less than 10 minutes if they were animated without any filler. It's not very fair to compare them.

[Gaffer Tape]

Of course it's fair to compare them. Toriyama could have told as long of a story as he liked. He did serialize every single week, after all, during the Trunks run. In the case of DB Minus, it was a bonus cash grab, so he probably could have done whatever he wanted with it. Or, barring that, he could have told a much more compact story effectively in the same space. That Toriyama either can't effectively tell this type of story or can't do so within the limitations of his medium doesn't suddenly make it unfair to compare it to efforts that effectively do tell the same story.

[TheGmGoken]

A big reason the Bardock & Trunks TV Specials were better than the manga ones is because of their length. The anime specials had much more time to tell the story (50 minutes), while the manga specials would have lasted less than 10 minutes if they were animated without any filler. It's not very fair to compare them.

Actually I have Manga Trunks origins and Anime special Equal. Both tell a GREAT story. Sure the anime was more dramatic but the manga had some drama in it to. Infact Gohan death was more dark in the manga as only 17 killed him and he was in pool of blood. While the anime Gohan had a chance.

[The Monkey King]

Gohan is a nerd. The Cell arc is over and he's not the next Broly. I don't understand how you can sit there and not understand the concept of artistic license, in regards to drawing Gohan as a bookish scholar and not a fighter.

I don't even know where that Vegeta piece is from.

Yeah and the picture I brought up was from the Buu arc where Gohan had been slacking off for 7 years.
The drawings are from the Chozenshuu I believe:

It looks like Mr. Satan developed a case of anorexia