What things irreversibly lowered your opinion of the series?

[TheGmGoken]

Gohan losing his Ultimate state drastically lowered my opinion of the series. What's even the logic behind that? They've already wanked Goku to the point where he's mastered being a god, so why continue to nerf Gohan?

Yeah his degradation and misuse is practically unforgivable. How a state that had nothing to do with training up and goes away is beyond me. In universe it's stupid, and out of universe there's really no point to keep taking away from em. Only thing left to regress is lose SSJ, and forget how to fight/start cowering and running away again. Then he'll have gone full circle.

I buy it. If you don't train, you lose skill and muscle. The power up could work the same way.

Then why is only Gohan the only one effected by it. Every time. Every single time. Gohan is the only one who loses power because he doesn't train. Even when he's not the main focus. Master fucking Roshi didn't lose power and when last time he trained? Krillin (maybe police camp helped), Yamcha, Goten , Trunks, and probably Satan. All probably went 10 plus years without training. Yet no power lose. Why just Gohan? Freeza someone naturally strong went years without being trained. Probably never trained. Yet not 1 power drop from Freeza.

Didn't they say Gohan got less stupid after Beerus? Gohan never learns does he? Majin Boo , Beerus, Freeza, and perhaps more. Like damn. Did he loss brain cells too?

[ABED]

Krillin (maybe police camp helped), Yamcha, Goten, Trunks, and probably Satan. All probably went 10 plus years without training. Yet no power lose. Why just Gohan?

Where was it said they didn't train?

Freeza someone naturally strong went years without being trained. Probably never trained. Yet not 1 power drop from Freeza.

Some people are genetic freaks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Even Vegeta and Nappa could take a nap in a space pod for a year and stay exactly the same.

[ABED]

Even Vegeta and Nappa could take a nap in a space pod for a year and stay exactly the same.

If it was simply a nap, they would've died. It had to be some sort of suspended animation otherwise they would've died due to lack of food.

[TheGmGoken]

You can easily imply or assume that the humans except maybe Ten stop training. Krillin even grew his hair out. Gotenks had 1 gag when they forgot how to fuse. But only Gohan is affected by not training. Even though he "stop being stupid".

Even Vegeta and Nappa could take a nap in a space pod for a year and stay exactly the same.

If it was simply a nap, they would've died. It had to be some sort of suspended animation otherwise they would've died due to lack of food.

It's anime/manga. I'm not saying they didn't eat but it was probably mostly napping for a year in a Space Pod. Probably had snacks in the pod.

[ABED]

There's little indication that their powers hadn't decreased during those periods, they don't do much so you can't really judge.

Probably had snacks in the pod.

Where? It's a small pod.

If Goten and Trunks forgot how to fuse, then clearly they were affected by not training.

[TheGmGoken]

There's little indication that their powers hadn't decreased during those periods, they don't do much so you can't really judge.

Probably had snacks in the pod.

Where? It's a small pod.

Snack was a joke.

I just got a theory. Popped up just a second ago. Saiyans are built to fight. So since Gohan refused to do that. His Saiyan became weaker. While Earthlings aren't bulit to fight so...going beyond actually doesn't hurt them

[fadeddreams5]

The magic spell just brought out the power, that power needs to be exercised.

But Gohan had it ten years later in the End of Z.

Toriyama will write that out.

[alakazam^]

I'd prefer it, if Toriyama/Toei just admitted they goofed on that one.
They are ruining my head-canon otherwise
But I don't have high hopes for it.

Nothing in the manga says that achieving his "mystic" state locked Gohan out of Super Saiyan. That's just a fan theory that got so popular that when BoG contradicted it, everyone started screaming "plothole!" It's nothing more than what you said, it ruins some people's head-canons.

Yes, I know that very well.

As a fan very much interested in these in-universe tidbits, however, it annoys me a bit, that I should take this as a legit answer to the debate, when it was originally intended to just be Super Saiyan Gohan in the movie and the staff allegedly backtracked, due to negative feedback to the trailer and unwittingly gave the answer to a long-standing debate amongst DB fans.
I'd rather take the original script as the proper rendition of events, but sadly we don't have one released publically and Toriyama probably wouldn't have done more than perhaps just write "Gohan changes to his fighting gi, goes full power and attack Beerus, but to no avail." Or something like that, where it isn't clear, if Toriyama wanted him as an SS or not.
Why couldn't Toyble have made an official Manga adaptation?

That's not what happened, though. Watanabe stated Gohan wasn't a SSJ in the movie.

[dbgtFO]

That's not what happened, though. Watanabe stated Gohan wasn't a SSJ in the movie.

I think we can all see, that Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan, when he fought Beerus, so what exactly is this post supposed to mean?

[soulnova]

That's not what happened, though. Watanabe stated Gohan wasn't a SSJ in the movie.

I think we can all see, that Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan, when he fought Beerus, so what exactly is this post supposed to mean?

The first trailer they released showed Gohan powering into Super Saiyan and charging Beerus. I was actually surprised when that happened and I thought correctly people were going to flip about that. I was more shocked when, in the next trailer, the scene had been fixed to show black haired mystic Gohan instead.

[dbgtFO]

That's not what happened, though. Watanabe stated Gohan wasn't a SSJ in the movie.

I think we can all see, that Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan, when he fought Beerus, so what exactly is this post supposed to mean?

The first trailer they released showed Gohan powering into Super Saiyan and charging Beerus. I was actually surprised when that happened and I thought correctly people were going to flip about that. I was more shocked when, in the next trailer, the scene had been fixed to show black haired mystic Gohan instead.

Yes, I know that. That's also what I'm alluding to in the post quoted by alakazam.
I just don't know what he's trying to tell me.

[Soccerjam]

When they started rebooting AFTER they finished the story 10+ years ago.(Battle of Gods, Revival of Frieza, Dragon Ball Super) I can live without Beerus and this so called god nonsense. They're gods as is

[alakazam^]

Yes, I know that. That's also what I'm alluding to in the post quoted by alakazam.
I just don't know what he's trying to tell me.

Well, you said the original intent was for Gohan to be SSJ all along but they changed it because of fan reactions. I was just correcting it with the official statements we have.

[Avery]

I've always hated how shallow and pointless Goten was. Yes, he's cute and all, he's 50% of Gotenks and that's it. Did we really need another son for Goku who happens to be a carbon copy of him with no personality of his own? We already got to see Goku's "parenting skills" with Gohan. He's basically that kid who hangs around with Trunks. I did like his reaction to his mother's death and how he got serious for about five minutes...right before going back to his usual shallow self.

Trunks wasn't that much better. But at least he did have a personality of his own and he existed...well, because Future Trunks did

[GTx10]

I always felt the Boo Saga was "different" from the rest of the series. See, Dragon Ball through DBZ up towards Son Gohan's High School days felt "Natural." Son Goku goes on adventures and grows up, he finds out he is a Alien and he gains the SS form. He trains and powers the form up, than dies saving his pals. Son Gohan is introduced as this unpredictable child with amazing powers! This is realized when the lad becomes a SS2. He brings peace, and goes to High School. He finally becomes a normal kid. Goku is in Heaven and well... That's it!
I liked Son Goten because he was Kid Goku all over again, but than he grows up into a typical teen. Kid Trunks is meh. Fat Boo is interesting but than it turns into Cell all over again. Then Fusions and Super Saiyan 3! Ultimate Gohan just muddies the power level thing all to hell and than Earrings! Its such a weird saga in Dragon Ball. (Majin Vegeta was epic thou)

[Ozotto]

Pretty much if it wasn't made in the 80's or 90's in Japan, it has lowered my opinion on the series.
I enjoy the original/ classic DBZ the most, this new stuff is good but it aint the same.

[Basaku]

I've always hated how shallow and pointless Goten was. Yes, he's cute and all, he's 50% of Gotenks and that's it. Did we really need another son for Goku who happens to be a carbon copy of him with no personality of his own? We already got to see Goku's "parenting skills" with Gohan. He's basically that kid who hangs around with Trunks. I did like his reaction to his mother's death and how he got serious for about five minutes...right before going back to his usual shallow self.

Trunks wasn't that much better. But at least he did have a personality of his own and he existed...well, because Future Trunks did

Which is primary reason why this series needs to move forward, grow them up and why Gotenks should be retired. They both need independent developement, especially Goten. I don't get Toei's obsession about having kiddo characters.

[Lord Beerus]

I've always hated how shallow and pointless Goten was. Yes, he's cute and all, he's 50% of Gotenks and that's it. Did we really need another son for Goku who happens to be a carbon copy of him with no personality of his own? We already got to see Goku's "parenting skills" with Gohan. He's basically that kid who hangs around with Trunks. I did like his reaction to his mother's death and how he got serious for about five minutes...right before going back to his usual shallow self.

Trunks wasn't that much better. But at least he did have a personality of his own and he existed...well, because Future Trunks did

Which is primary reason why this series needs to move forward, grow them up and why Gotenks should be retired. They both need independent developement, especially Goten. I don't get Toei's obsession about having kiddo characters.

Child-like characters move a lot of merchandise in Japan. You'd think Tony Tony Chopper would be the main character of One Piece with how much merchandise in Japan is based on him.

[gohann]

Later sagas of Z lowered my opinion of the series as it kept getting worse.

Saiyan and Namek arcs - Good
The rest - Vary in quality but they never reach the greatness of the previous sagas.