An observation on Dragon Ball's English-speaking fanbases.

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:19 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Kunzait, have you watched the Saiyan saga redub at all? They DO mention Goku and Raditz going to the afterlife, and all that stuff.

^ Yeah I know they do, (And I know you were directing the question to Kuzait), but they still fail to mention that Kami is God, Kaio is the God of the universe and that in "Season 3"-now they still have the same thing that was happening since 1999 since they didn't change any of the lines to make such things happen.

They also mention the "Next Dimension" in "Season 3"

jjgp1112 wrote:You're acting like the dub and JPN versions are completely different. As someone who has never even thought about watching the Japanese version and simply reads the Japanese subtitles while I'm watching the show in English, I can say that a lot of the lines in episodes are similar, AND A LOT OF THE PLOT ELEMENTS ARE LEFT IN TACT.

That's not the case you are only reading text and not even watching or listening the other version. Let me say this. Would you rather carry around the lyrics to a song and read them whenever you want your music fix or actually listen to the song? I'd think you'd rather hear what's going on rather than reading a piece of paper because the delivery would be completely different if you were interpreting it on a piece of paper right?

People can say the same thing but it can be the worst performance ever or nowhere near as good as the person that's actually speaking. Take Bush. He has great speeches but can't talk or orate his way out of a box. If Hilter's lines would have been read by somebody else with less charisma, do you think that Nazi Germany would have existed? And jjgp1112 let me say this too as a person that has watched the dub for every line that they get right there's always a line, nearly right after that that they screw up. There's no denying that. Because even that's plainly there. And this isn't translating mistakes this is just sheer stupidty and bullshit like "Guess who Joined the Super Saiyans club." After Sabat's screaming. And also his "backstory of how he became a Super Saiyan" which complete changed the basis of what he said was a Super Saiyan putting Vegeta in another one of the many OOC moments in Funi's Dragon Ball Z.

jjgp1112 wrote:And honestly, the Japanese music isn't all that amazing anyway. Good, but not blow-away. I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdNBQvyr5p4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYYMRzjh8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRTfTW2EPu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwfiF2pqQe0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZZrwwO-F4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz2sT6K9Rmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_D5BaWigFU

I can't help but say this. But Faulconcer's music isn't even really composed with thought or anything. Do you realize that 90% of the time the beat is the same thing with various interludes that lead ultimately to nowhere. Also it doesn't help that the presentation of his music throughout the series is constant. It never shuts up and it's always switching "themes". Do you also realize that Faulconer's music is no different than the low budget Techno that you'd hear in porn. Because Faulconer himself has said that he was hired not because he was good but because Funi was broke and they needed somebody who could work rushed and cheap. That's exactly what they got.

So like Kunzait has said many times if the dub's music is so great then why has Bruce Faulconer been unemployed since Funi kicked him out in 2002? And if Shunsuke Kikuchi is so "bad" then why is he still creating music in Japan to this day years after Dragon Ball has ended and also had composed many many instrumently scores long long before Dragon Ball was even a thought in people's minds? If Faulconer's music is so good then he really should be known by people all over like how Kikuchi's music is known worldwide and not just the people that watch the Funi Dragon Ball Z dub religiously right? I dare you to look into the sales firgures or articles or anything that mentions Faulconer or Kikuchi and see how many non-Dragon Ball related things you'll find an see how well known they are. That's your homework.

Basically until you start giving me reasons why his music is actually something that a part-time rave DJ couldn't actually do better then there just will be a lot of a people that won't hear you out.

Kunzait can answer the other questions better than I could but that's how I see it.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:26 pm

That's not the case you are only reading text and not even watching or listening the other version. Let me say this. Would you rather carry around the lyrics to a song and read them whenever you want your music fix or actually listen to the song? I'd think you'd rather hear what's going on rather than reading a piece of paper because the delivery would be completely different if you were interpreting it on a piece of paper right?

I do this just because I'm curious as to what they say in the Japanese version while I'm watching the dub. I'm reading the subs, but I can still hear what they're saying in English. Sometimes, they do say stuff not said in the Japanese version, but sometimes, they basically say the same thing.

jjgp1112 wrote:And honestly, the Japanese music isn't all that amazing anyway. Good, but not blow-away. I always preferred the dub music, I dunno, guess because I love Hip-Hop so much, so I need exciting stuff that'll get me bobbing my head, like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdNBQvyr5p4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wYYMRzjh8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRTfTW2EPu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwfiF2pqQe0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZZrwwO-F4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz2sT6K9Rmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_D5BaWigFU
I can't help but say this. But Faulconcer's music isn't even really composed with thought or anything. Do you realize that 90% of the time the beat is the same thing with various interludes that lead ultimately to nowhere. Also it doesn't help that the presentation of his music throughout the series is constant. It never shuts up and it's always switching "themes". Do you also realize that Faulconer's music is no different than the low budget Techno that you'd hear in porn. Because Faulconer himself has said that he was hired not because he was good but because Funi was broke and they needed somebody who could work rushed and cheap. That's exactly what they got.

So like Kunzait has said many times if the dub's music is so great then why has Bruce Faulconer been unemployed since Funi kicked him out in 2002? And if Shunsuke Kikuchi is so "bad" then why is he still creating music in Japan to this day years after Dragon Ball has ended and also had composed many many instrumently scores long long before Dragon Ball was even a thought in people's minds? If Faulconer's music is so good then he really should be known by people all over like how Kikuchi's music is known worldwide and not just the people that watch the Funi Dragon Ball Z dub religiously right? I dare you to look into the sales firgures or articles or anything that mentions Faulconer or Kikuchi and see how many non-Dragon Ball related things you'll find an see how well known they are. That's your homework.

Basically until you start giving me reasons why his music is actually something that a part-time rave DJ couldn't actually do better then there just will be a lot of a people that won't hear you out.

Kunzait can answer the other questions better than I could but that's how I see it.

I'm not trying to say it's better, it's just my preference. I actually do think his music is good, and I find myself enjoying a lot of his music. Who cares if it's easy to make? I still think it's good, and catchy. It's actually hard for me to watch anything pass the Frieza saga without his music.

How can you NOT like this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsEwuzO ... re=related

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:53 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:I'm not trying to say it's better, it's just my preference. I actually do think his music is good, and I find myself enjoying a lot of his music. Who cares if it's easy to make? I still think it's good, and catchy. It's actually hard for me to watch anything pass the Freeza saga without his music.

Well that's simple you're a dub fan. You're completely used to Funi's way of doing Dragon Ball Z and will always be, even with evidence that it's still not very good. And that wasn't my point. I'm saying that the original music's presentation within the series is much better placed than Funi's because they at the very least don't play music 24/7 so the ADD kids can have something to be fixated on when people are actually talking. That's one of the main differences between the music itself. It's as if Funi thought that simple, cheap, and rushed music done by one guy with not much experience on a synth was the only way that people would ever watch the series which is just ignorant on Funi's part seeing that they were the last country to ever pick up Dragon Ball. They dubbed Dragon Ball Z Movies 1-3 with the original music and that even the dubs crappier than Funi's like the Portuguese, Big Green, Malaysian, and even some of the AB group stuff didn't even do such a thing.

In the end you just aren't going to find anybody other than the people that watched the Funi dub (and liked it, which takes out about 1/4-about 1/2 of the English speaking fanbase), who even knows Faulconer's music. Then you've gotta go on from there and account for, people actually buying his CDs and music. Which it seems that nobody does because he's never been able do do anything other than Funi's Dragon Ball Z music for a 2 year period. Contrast that to Kikuchi that everybody around the frickin planet knows of even if you're a Funi Dragon Ball Z fan and how his CD's always sell well even in this age of music piracy.

So what I can say is this. You're fine to like his music it's just from my POV that you have realize that Faulconer's score isn't anything that a person with 3 months of practice on a synth could do if not better. Kukuchi's score is actually music that was created with thought and skill that you couldn't get by with even 5 years of musical conducting.

How can you NOT like this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsEwuzO9jY

How can you not like this even though Kukuchi didn't make it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_ZSi6YI-s4

JK

But yeah I think that's an awesome song he has some good pieces but to say that he's a great musician like most of the more ignorant Funi version fans would say is laughable and would only be accepted by people that don't know what they are talking about or listening too. I also think if anything you should blame Funi's way that they placed his music within the series. To be honest it just seems like they went for the ADD approach which is why you really never actually hear a full piece of Faulconer's music unless you listen to the piece completely separately.

AceSharp · Post by **AceSharp** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:55 pm

Eh, I've never really been too fussy with either the original or dubbed version.

I appreciate that the Japanese version is far superior, but sometimes its nice to just hear them all speaking English.

I'm not fussy when it comes to the Ocean/Funi situation either.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:33 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsEwuzO ... re=related

I think I can slam on a random instrument and make that same beat. Absolutely nothing stands out about this song in my opinion, it sounds like something that belongs in a gameboy game.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:36 pm

Did this thread seriously just turn into FuniFalconer vs Japoriginal?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:38 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:Did this thread seriously just turn into FuniFalconer vs Japoriginal?

Yes but its done in a respectful way and we are still talking about the original topic of the English speaking fanbase of Dragonball. There is nothing wrong with the discussion going on here even if you don't care for it.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:39 pm

I guess that came off a little "elitist" so my bad on that one. Banter on about your differing views.

As you were

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:19 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:It’s just that the dub’s explanations and terminology for almost everything is always incredibly vague, abstract, and arbitrary as all hell. You’d have to be a dedicated viewer of the English dub to eventually clue into what the hell is up with some of these guys; and many dub fans I’ve known STILL don’t pick up on it! The casual viewer just could never be expected to pick up on some of this stuff right away.

What is so vague about a Guardian? A "Guardian" guards, that's their job. Saying such in no way destroys any key elements of the series.

You keep picking on the fact that I say the core of the series is still intact but I give you this...

Based soley upon ther Dub...

"The Saiyan Saga...The story of Goku, a loveable dimwit who finds out he was sent to earth as a baby to destroy the planet by the people of his race. The Saiyans. His newly discovered brother Raditz steals his child and says he must kill 100 people in a day or never see his son again. Goku teams up with his arch-nemisis Piccolo to defeat Raditz and they do. They find out 2 more Saiyans are on their way, far more powerful than Raditz. Goku arrives on the Planet of a cornball goofy man who's role is to protect and guard. He is also a master of martial arts and trains Goku for a year.. The Saiyans arrive. People die. Goku arrives powers up. Vegeta crushes his scouter in anger and Goku's Power Reading. Goku defeats Nappa and then fights the Saiyan Prince Vegeta. Stuff happens and the good guys win. The End"

All basic plot elements are still intact in the Dub. You have the same plot with relativley the same characters. Big deal if some aspects of the characters personalities are changed. Goku's still a naive dimwit. Vegeta's still pissy as hell. Kuririn's still a sweet character who can occassionally not be as brave as some of the others.

I respect your feelings of dislike towards the Dub and understand them. But to claim that 2 stories with the same plot and relatively the same characters are not anywhere close to similar is...Well to quote you..."Bull shit". When I came off of the Dub and began reading the Manga over 3 years ago, I noticed obvious differences. I had fun comparing the 2 dialogue wise. But I at never time thought the 2 didn't resemble each other. You're simply being insanely harsh on something that you dislike.

As I said before, I consider the Dub to be an Different Telling of the same events.

Vekurotto wrote:Well that's simple you're a dub fan. You're completely used to Funi's way of doing Dragon Ball Z and will always be, even with evidence that it's still not very good. And that wasn't my point. I'm saying that the original music's presentation within the series is much better placed than Funi's because they at the very least don't play music 24/7 so the ADD kids can have something to be fixated on when people are actually talking.

So? A McDonalds Burger in comparison to a Filet Migon is an utter piece of terribly put together crap. But that doesn't mean that people who prefer it to a Filet Migon simply like it better because the knew McDonalds First. Music is a matter of personal taste.

To put it in a Musical perspective. Celine Dion is an insanely better vocalist than Ozzy Osbourne. Does that mean everyone has to prefer Celine and want to listen to her as opposed to Ozzy? No. Just because something is better composed than something else does not mean that it must be worse in the eyes of everyone else nor better suited.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:49 am

Except, you know...... there was an original.

Like "Freefallin' " by Tom Petty. Amazing freaking song. Great as it is. And then somebody comes along and thinks "hey.... I can do that better." And then they turn it into a calm droning little ballad that never rises or falls in pitch or sone or... anything. Technically, the same song. Mayer's version might even be decent- if there wasn't a real one with a whole lot more soul behind it.

The existance of a version, from the original creator that has a lot more to it , does infact make an inferior flatter version worse.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:56 am

In your mind. The Tom Petty example is one that I agree with. But that doesn't mean everyone has to think he's better just because it's the original. I can think of quite a few good song remakes.

Celine Dion's Power of Love comes to mind
Elton John performing Bohemian Rhapsody on the Freddie Mercury Dedication
Sarah McLachlan's "War is Over"

But that's just me. Not everyone has to agree that an original is the best.

Edit: Oh I just wanted to add...I wanted to say something about Piccolo's character in the Dub. For me, the main problem is that sometimes he gets too speechy like Dub Goku and loses that former demon feel to him earlier on. Later on in the series Piccolo does change to a character who will give a speech from time to time. But take the Saiya-jin Arc after Chaozu's sacrifice...

Dub Piccolo: Do you see Gohan? It doesn't matter how strong you are...As long as you have heart.

Compared to...

Original Piccolo: He blew himself up to take out an enemy...He's earned my respect.

Original line seemed much cooler and Piccolo like as opposed to the over the top Dub line.

Remix · Post by **Remix** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:07 am

Gozar wrote:Sarah McLachlan's "War is Over"

Not everyone has to agree that an original is the best.

Bad example, sir. Because if Sarah McLachlan's version of anything is better than the original, then the original has to be the fucking eighth layer of hell.

I happen to think Dragonball Z is well above such insulting comparisons!

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:19 am

Thus why I used a specific example with a great original and a remake that would be good if it wasn't for the fact that so much was stripped out of it on the way to the remake. Which is basically how I view what has happened to DBZ.

By your admission the English DBZ is simplified and condensed thematically to the tastes of the people who were simplifying it. So I used an applicable example.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:58 am

Remix wrote:
Gozar wrote:Sarah McLachlan's "War is Over"

Not everyone has to agree that an original is the best.
Bad example, sir. Because if Sarah McLachlan's version of anything is better than the original, then the original has to be the fucking eighth layer of hell.

I happen to think Dragonball Z is well above such insulting comparisons!

I was simply naming good remakes. Not necessarily ones that are better than the original. But I happen to love Ms. McLachlen's version. On a side note I also love the Melissa Etheridge version of War is Over. Vastly different from John Lennon but I still love it.

Thus why I used a specific example with a great original and a remake that would be good if it wasn't for the fact that so much was stripped out of it on the way to the remake. Which is basically how I view what has happened to DBZ.

That's fine if you view it that way. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:06 am

It can be the same with theme song changes too. TF Galaxy Force's dub theme is better than its original Japanese one. The Japanese theme doesn't sound very TF in my opinion.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:19 am

Remix wrote:
Gozar wrote:Sarah McLachlan's "War is Over"

Not everyone has to agree that an original is the best.
Bad example, sir. Because if Sarah McLachlan's version of anything is better than the original, then the original has to be the fucking eighth layer of hell.

Ha ha! I was just thinking the same thing about the Celine Dion one.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:59 am

Gozar wrote:What is so vague about a Guardian? A "Guardian" guards, that's their job. Saying such in no way destroys any key elements of the series.

I asked this before, but what if the Saiyans were never called "aliens"? What if they were only ever described as "fighters"? It describes what they do most of the time, right? But if that's all they were ever explained as being, their true nature wouldn't be explained very well.

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't. The two don't really switch over very well. Imagine calling Thor the "guardian of thunder". Or if Knuckles were called the "god of the Master Emerald?" It doesn't really work, does it?

Gozar wrote:Based soley upon ther Dub...

"The Saiyan Saga...The story of Goku, a loveable dimwit who finds out he was sent to earth as a baby to destroy the planet by the people of his race. The Saiyans. His newly discovered brother Raditz steals his child and says he must kill 100 people in a day or never see his son again. Goku teams up with his arch-nemisis Piccolo to defeat Raditz and they do. They find out 2 more Saiyans are on their way, far more powerful than Raditz. Goku arrives on the Planet of a cornball goofy man who's role is to protect and guard. He is also a master of martial arts and trains Goku for a year.. The Saiyans arrive. People die. Goku arrives powers up. Vegeta crushes his scouter in anger and Goku's Power Reading. Goku defeats Nappa and then fights the Saiyan Prince Vegeta. Stuff happens and the good guys win. The End"

The part about Goku dieing seems to have dropped out. Which makes it unclear how Goku would end up at Kaio's. And yes, when you combine that with Kaio just being some cornball goofy man who just happens to be very strong, and who Goku just happens to know about, then what's going on with Goku in the entire mid-section of the arc becomes pretty vague.

Also, if you're going by the original dub, then "People die" isn't applicable.

And why exactly did Raditz come to Earth? Just to kidnap Gohan, apparently? And why do Vegeta and Nappa come? What are they trying to do, and why do the heroes want to stop them? You've got a lot of "X happens, then Y happens, then Z happens", but not too much of why any of this is happening in the first place.

Big deal if some aspects of the characters personalities are changed. Goku's still a naive dimwit. Vegeta's still pissy as hell. Kuririn's still a sweet character who can occassionally not be as brave as some of the others.

And that's all they are. The whoel point is that the dub leaves them only the smallest fragment of their original characters intact.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:28 am

Herms wrote:
Gozar wrote:What is so vague about a Guardian? A "Guardian" guards, that's their job. Saying such in no way destroys any key elements of the series.
I asked this before, but what if the Saiyans were never called "aliens"? What if they were only ever described as "fighters"? It describes what they do most of the time, right? But if that's all they were ever explained as being, their true nature wouldn't be explained very well.

Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't. The two don't really switch over very well. Imagine calling Thor the "guardian of thunder". Or if Knuckles were called the "god of the Master Emerald?" It doesn't really work, does it?

Gozar wrote:Based soley upon ther Dub...

"The Saiyan Saga...The story of Goku, a loveable dimwit who finds out he was sent to earth as a baby to destroy the planet by the people of his race. The Saiyans. His newly discovered brother Raditz steals his child and says he must kill 100 people in a day or never see his son again. Goku teams up with his arch-nemisis Piccolo to defeat Raditz and they do. They find out 2 more Saiyans are on their way, far more powerful than Raditz. Goku arrives on the Planet of a cornball goofy man who's role is to protect and guard. He is also a master of martial arts and trains Goku for a year.. The Saiyans arrive. People die. Goku arrives powers up. Vegeta crushes his scouter in anger and Goku's Power Reading. Goku defeats Nappa and then fights the Saiyan Prince Vegeta. Stuff happens and the good guys win. The End"
The part about Goku dieing seems to have dropped out. Which makes it unclear how Goku would end up at Kaio's. And yes, when you combine that with Kaio just being some cornball goofy man who just happens to be very strong, and who Goku just happens to know about, then what's going on with Goku in the entire mid-section of the arc becomes pretty vague.

Also, if you're going by the original dub, then "People die" isn't applicable.

And why exactly did Raditz come to Earth? Just to kidnap Gohan, apparently? And why do Vegeta and Nappa come? What are they trying to do, and why do the heroes want to stop them? You've got a lot of "X happens, then Y happens, then Z happens", but not too much of why any of this is happening in the first place.

Big deal if some aspects of the characters personalities are changed. Goku's still a naive dimwit. Vegeta's still pissy as hell. Kuririn's still a sweet character who can occassionally not be as brave as some of the others.
And that's all they are. The whoel point is that the dub leaves them only the smallest fragment of their original characters intact.

But all that was was just a brief description. If you deny the fact that they actually explain the reasons why Goku's there in the actual dub, (and the Funi dub, not the Ocean Dub) then you're full of shit. Hopefully, that's not what you're doing.

The Kais WERE made out to be "guardians" or "Gods". King Kai said multiple times when he makes mistakes, "I have to watch over a large part of the universe, y'know!" and other stuff.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:39 am

Herms wrote:Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't. The two don't really switch over very well. Imagine calling Thor the "guardian of thunder". Or if Knuckles were called the "god of the Master Emerald?" It doesn't really work, does it?

I would say a good chunk of that is that Kami doesn't match up to the Western notion of a god.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:52 am

Rocketman wrote:
Herms wrote:Being described as a "god" implies a whole bunch of stuff that being described as a "guardian" doesn't. The two don't really switch over very well. Imagine calling Thor the "guardian of thunder". Or if Knuckles were called the "god of the Master Emerald?" It doesn't really work, does it?
I would say a good chunk of that is that Kami doesn't match up to the Western notion of a god.

That's how I always felt. He comes off more as just some old guardian here in the States and Canada, not a God.