Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:25 pm

The Tori-bot wrote:Except for the fact that Bra shows absolutely no interest in fighting whatsoever and, were an event so cataclysmic as to be able to cause the SSJ transformation, she would have nowhere near the required Ki to transform.

Except she's Vegetto's daughter. Take every bullshit powerup freebie that Gohan got and multiply it by awesome.

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:
The Tori-bot wrote:Except for the fact that Bra shows absolutely no interest in fighting whatsoever and, were an event so cataclysmic as to be able to cause the SSJ transformation, she would have nowhere near the required Ki to transform.
Except she's Vegetto's daughter. Take every bullshit powerup freebie that Gohan got and multiply it by awesome.

Oh, right, that Bra.

Scarz · Post by **Scarz** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:16 pm

Hm, there's one thing that really bugs me about DBM and it's the action scenes. They could be done a lot better in my (dickish) opinion. Often I find myself wondering what just happened from one panel to another and even though we complain about the two pages a week updates, I think the artist should take his time and flesh out the action sequences even if does take a few pages more to do it.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:28 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Bussani wrote:...
Fffff-

That's a huge stretch, but I guess it's possible. Vegeta Jr would have to be in the same boat, of course. And there would have to be more than just 1 Saiyajin in the blood line, or it would have to be introduced in a generation further down the line, or Goku Jr would still be less than 1/4 Saiyajin.

Of course, that has nothing to do with them including GT or not.
Well if you go by that rumor about Toriyama’s position on the matter of where Vegeta Jr., came from that Herms and others discussed awhile ago you have Trunk’s and Tenshinhan’s daughter’s descendents getting together with Bra’s descendents to produce Vegeta Jr. Now if some more Saiyan blood was introduced on Pan’s side then Goku Jr., turning Super Saiyan could have happened without Pan getting the transformation.

What? No it doesn't. That just proves Vegeta Jr is at most 1/8 Saiyan instead of 1/16 or 1/32 Saiyan. Either way, still more diluted than Pan.

Maphisto86 wrote:...I also which know exactly what Daizenshuu Akira Toriyama said that Pan could not become SSJ. I heard Mr. Toriyama admitted that the answer he gave was simply to hid the real reason he never drew a female Super Saiyan . . . because he did not know how to. ...
There are two questions that have to asked, which comment proceeded the other and which is more official? The real world answer is that Toriyama could not figure how a female Super Saiyan would look but the official in universe answer is that her blood is too diluted, since we are focusing on in universe things that one holds sway.

But keep in mind that the diluted blood answer wasn't from Toriyama himself so much as the people who later broke the rule in GT. On-camera always trumps off-camera in the event of an unknown.

KaiserNeko wrote:...Because she's the one of the two only female Saiyan in the ENTIRE show, yet she can't be up there with the boys because of some lame factoid about quarter-blood Saiyans? I'm sorry, no, she deserves it. Especially since, unlike Bra, she actually did focus on learning martial arts. Of course, I am curious to see fighting-Bra in action as well.
Hmm, she focused on it because of that nut job grandfather of her’s most likely influenced her, when Son Gohan was young and he did not have that influence around him because of Chi-Chi he did not go all ‘I want to be Bruce Lee’ on them. The Daizenshuu itself states that ½ Saiyans are not all that enthused about fighting. Therefore, what do you think a 3 or 4 year old ¼ Saiyan would want to do? At the end of the day, a Super Saiyan Bra is more believable than Pan.

It says Gohan isn't like his father, not that anybody who isn't 100% don't like fighting.

EDIT: By the way, the new page was translated perfectly.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:25 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Well if you go by that rumor about Toriyama’s position on the matter of where Vegeta Jr., came from that Herms and others discussed awhile ago you have Trunk’s and Tenshinhan’s daughter’s descendents getting together with Bra’s descendents to produce Vegeta Jr. Now if some more Saiyan blood was introduced on Pan’s side then Goku Jr., turning Super Saiyan could have happened without Pan getting the transformation.

As Herms said, that was how Toriyama would have set up Vegeta Jr's lineage, but not necessarily how it was in GT. In fact, I think he was 1 or 2 generations further along in GT than he was on Toriyama's idea.

And even then, if you add it up, he'd be a lot less than 1/4th Saiyajin. Unless a full blood or something comes in somewhere, there isn't enough left to make more than 1/4th that far down the lineage.

In simple terms, if Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr's fathers were pure Saiyajin, they would each be slightly more than 1/2 Saiyajin. If their grandfathers were pure Saiyajin, they would only be slightly more than 1/4th. Maybe that would be enough, but anything above that (great grandfather) wouldn't be enough.

Even if a 1/2 Saiyajin and 1/2 Saiyajin mated, you'd only get a 1/2 Saiyajin as a result.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:26 pm

Bussani wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:Well if you go by that rumor about Toriyama’s position on the matter of where Vegeta Jr., came from that Herms and others discussed awhile ago you have Trunk’s and Tenshinhan’s daughter’s descendents getting together with Bra’s descendents to produce Vegeta Jr. Now if some more Saiyan blood was introduced on Pan’s side then Goku Jr., turning Super Saiyan could have happened without Pan getting the transformation.
As Herms said, that was how Toriyama would have set up Vegeta Jr's lineage, but not necessarily how it was in GT. In fact, I think he was 1 or 2 generations further along in GT than he was on Toriyama's idea.

And even then, if you add it up, he'd be a lot less than 1/4th Saiyajin. Unless a full blood or something comes in somewhere, there isn't enough left to make more than 1/4th that far down the lineage.

In simple terms, if Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr's fathers were pure Saiyajin, they would each be slightly more than 1/2 Saiyajin. If their grandfathers were pure Saiyajin, they would only be slightly more than 1/4th. Maybe that would be enough, but anything above that (great grandfather) wouldn't be enough.

Even if a 1/2 Saiyajin and 1/2 Saiyajin mated, you'd only get a 1/2 Saiyajin as a result.

That is why I said that I would borrow the sleeping blood concept from Yu Yu Hakusho that wakes up some many generations later. I would be adding to the concept would out taking away or breaking a pre existent rule.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:58 pm

Maphisto86 wrote: I also which know exactly what Daizenshuu Akira Toriyama said that Pan could not become SSJ. I heard Mr. Toriyama admitted that the answer he gave was simply to hid the real reason he never drew a female Super Saiyan . . . because he did not know how to. :roll:

Daizenshuu 7's bio of Pan says that she doesn't go Super Saiyan, not necessarily that she can't. And the thing about Toriyama saying he didn't know how to draw a female SSJ is BS, as far as I know.

It's also worth mentioning that the GT Perfect Files explicitly states that both Pan and Bra can potentially become Super Saiyans.

Dayspring wrote:It says Gohan isn't like his father, not that anybody who isn't 100% don't like fighting. :?

I do remember there being something in Daizenshuu 4 to the effect half-Saiyans lack the interest in fighting that full-blooded Saiyans have.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:10 pm

After a tedious period this fan-manga is in a pretty strong period.
SSJ Pan vs. Bojack? Awesome!

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:16 pm

Herms wrote:
Maphisto86 wrote: I also which know exactly what Daizenshuu Akira Toriyama said that Pan could not become SSJ. I heard Mr. Toriyama admitted that the answer he gave was simply to hid the real reason he never drew a female Super Saiyan . . . because he did not know how to.
Daizenshuu 7's bio of Pan says that she doesn't go Super Saiyan, not necessarily that she can't. And the thing about Toriyama saying he didn't know how to draw a female SSJ is BS, as far as I know.

It's also worth mentioning that the GT Perfect Files explicitly states that both Pan and Bra can potentially become Super Saiyans.

Dayspring wrote:It says Gohan isn't like his father, not that anybody who isn't 100% don't like fighting.
I do remember there being something in Daizenshuu 4 to the effect half-Saiyans lack the interest in fighting that full-blooded Saiyans have.

So Mike or Julian is full of it…I want my money back!!

This is in the Transformation Guide:

Daizenshuu # 7 states that Pan cannot go SSJ due to the Saiyan blood in her being too diluted. However, we blatantly see both Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. able to go SSJ (almost with no problem) in the end of DBGT. The daizenshuu was written long before GT was nearing this part of the series; they had no way of knowing just what direction the show would take. GT's showing Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going SSJ kills off the "diluted" blood theory, but still does not answer if Pan ever could / ever did go SSJ (especially in that "100 years" time between events in the last DBGT episode).

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:42 pm

Hey, don't forget this part:

Daizenshuu # 7 states that Pan cannot go SSJ due to the Saiyan blood in her being too diluted. However, we blatantly see both Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. able to go SSJ (almost with no problem) in the end of DBGT. The daizenshuu was written long before GT was nearing this part of the series; they had no way of knowing just what direction the show would take. GT's showing Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going SSJ kills off the "diluted" blood theory, but still does not answer if Pan ever could / ever did go SSJ (especially in that "100 years" time between events in the last DBGT episode).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:36 pm

@Herms: Thanks for the clear up; I wasn't factoring in D4.

As for the daizenshuu bio, even the French version is phrased in a way that doesn't make it impossible, just that she won't because of her blood being diluted. In other words, it just implies that our Pan won't meet whatever new requirements that 1/4 Saiyans will have, not that it's impossible. Since neither GT nor DBM's version of our Pan can go SSJ, it seems nobody broke any rules. (IE: Vegetto-trained Pan would meet her requirements)

If anything, it explains how all the 1/2 Saiyans and even Goku Jr made SSJ so bloody (pun intended) easily. In other words, blood dilution could reduce the physical importance and increase the emotional aspect of causing the change. Since Pan is supposed to be the most like Goku, she likely would never meet an emotional requirement as large as Goku, let alone one greater.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:55 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Hey, don't forget this part:

Daizenshuu # 7 states that Pan cannot go SSJ due to the Saiyan blood in her being too diluted. However, we blatantly see both Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. able to go SSJ (almost with no problem) in the end of DBGT. The daizenshuu was written long before GT was nearing this part of the series; they had no way of knowing just what direction the show would take. GT's showing Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. going SSJ kills off the "diluted" blood theory, but still does not answer if Pan ever could / ever did go SSJ (especially in that "100 years" time between events in the last DBGT episode).

Yeah but the way the part that you highlighted comes across as fan opinion while the other was fact from the Daizenshuu. This is the reason why Herms and Hujio need to complete their Daizenshuu project so we can get the facts and not what certain people think the Japanese says on an issue.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:19 pm

It seems fairly straightforward to me. The guidebook's writers jumped the gun and proposed a "fact" that ended up being contradicted and proven baseless later in the show itself.

The source material itself always has precedence over its guidebooks, especially when one contradicts the other. The guidebook says a 1/4 Saiyan's blood is too diluted for her to transform. But then the series itself shows beings with a far smaller percentage of Saiyan in them doing it.

The series is right and the guidebook is wrong. That's all there is to it.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:00 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:It seems fairly straightforward to me. The guidebook's writers jumped the gun and proposed a "fact" that ended up being contradicted and proven baseless later in the show itself.

The source material itself always has precedence over its guidebooks, especially when one contradicts the other. The guidebook says a 1/4 Saiyan's blood is too diluted for her to transform. But then the series itself shows beings with a far smaller percentage of Saiyan in them doing it.

The series is right and the guidebook is wrong. That's all there is to it.

No, according to Dayspring and Herms, it never said that to begin with, the GT Perfect Files out right says that they could potentially go Super Saiyan, see Herms' above post. I was going off Mike or Julian’s interpretation of the Daizenshuu in the Transformation Guide.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:11 am

I see, I was a bit confused as to what's being argued.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:31 am

Speaking of the fighting spirit of half Saiya-jins, I would like to add that I think that even though they don't inherit that animal-like will to fight, half Saiya-jins can enjoy fighting too.

I mean they are regular humans, the athletes of our world that is, who enjoy what they do, and enjoy fighting.
Some nutjobs even seem like Saiya-jins, fighting everything.

So I wouldn't just limit it to diluted Saiya-jin children to like fighting "'cause it's fun!".
I'm pretty sure that if Goku trained Gohan from the beginning and Chi-chi didn't smash the scientist thing into Gohan's head, he may have become a fighter that liked fighting.

And I'm sure that if Goten grew up with Goku, he would take fighting more seriously.
And if Trunks wasn't influenced by Bulma and her work in Capsule Corp. he would have trained with Vegeta instead.

I mean, the Saiya-jins were born into fighting. It was the only thing they did.
Goku was taught martial arts since he was a small child.
It's clear that they would enjoy fighting more, and not only because of their Saiya-jin heritage *chough* Tarble *cough*.

Just a thought I have, and I know that the Daizenshuu says differently, but it's not how I experience it.

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:37 am

I just don't care about some breeding problem, Dragon Ball isn't based on this pseudo physical things. However, I really don't like GT Pan character, in fact I hate her, but that Pan goes Super Saiyan is awesome. Great work guys, I'm just tired of all those fanpics about Pan and Bra SSJ's, this one is nice catch!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:34 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:It seems fairly straightforward to me. The guidebook's writers jumped the gun and proposed a "fact" that ended up being contradicted and proven baseless later in the show itself.

The source material itself always has precedence over its guidebooks, especially when one contradicts the other. The guidebook says a 1/4 Saiyan's blood is too diluted for her to transform. But then the series itself shows beings with a far smaller percentage of Saiyan in them doing it.

The series is right and the guidebook is wrong. That's all there is to it.
No, according to Dayspring and Herms, it never said that to begin with, the GT Perfect Files out right says that they could potentially go Super Saiyan, see Herms' above post. I was going off Mike or Julian’s interpretation of the Daizenshuu in the Transformation Guide.

After double checking the exact wording, it does indeed say can't, but only in the context of Pan at the moment we see her in the manga. Here's how the French version phrased things:

"Because she is 1/4 Saiyan, she can neither transform into an Oozaru, nor become a Super Saiyan."

Note the phrasing implies "her currently", not "all 1/4 Saiyans ever." This tells us it's impossible for 4-year-old Pan to transform because of whatever affect blood dilution has on the transformations, but it's not at all saying that she or any other 1/4 Saiyan can never transform. In the context of the rest of her bio, it just implies that if she were more than 1/4 Saiyan, she'd already be SSJ at age 4.
EDIT: In other words, the daizenshuu is saying Pan is ridiculously powerful (probably stronger than the version we saw in GT).

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:00 pm

Dayspring wrote:After double checking the exact wording, it does indeed say can't, but only in the context of Pan at the moment we see her in the manga. Here's how the French version phrased things:

"Because she is 1/4 Saiyan, she can neither transform into an Oozaru, nor become a Super Saiyan."

I'd translate the Japanese quote as this: "Even though as a quarter [Saiyan], she's never become an Oozaru or Super Saiyan, as might be expected, since she has Saiyan blood her fighting talent is outstanding."

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:14 pm

Herms wrote:
Dayspring wrote:After double checking the exact wording, it does indeed say can't, but only in the context of Pan at the moment we see her in the manga. Here's how the French version phrased things:

"Because she is 1/4 Saiyan, she can neither transform into an Oozaru, nor become a Super Saiyan."
I'd translate the Japanese quote as this: "Even though as a quarter [Saiyan], she's never become an Oozaru or Super Saiyan, as might be expected, since she has Saiyan blood her fighting talent is outstanding."

The French version can be read that way too, depending how you interpret it. The whole "ne, ni, ni" (French version of "neither, nor") works with "hasn't" and "can't", but I think if they wanted to imply both, they wouldn't have used the French verb for can following the ne (which turns it into can't). In other words, I think the French version is trying to imply just "Can't" instead of the possibility for both. Meanwhile the beginning of the sentence reads along the lines of "As/Seeing as/Since/Because she is only a quarter Saiyan", whereas the talent part is treated as a second, seperate sentence.