New Unit Power List !!! What do you think about that one?

[rereboy]

freezamite

Goku is also hurt pretty badly by the time he turns SSJ. In fact I think he is as hurt as Freeza if not more. He looked in worse shape. He took a severe beating from Freeza and the genki blast was close enough to affect him. He even had to be pulled out of the water by Piccolo.

So by that time I consider their level of damage to be about equal or Goku`s damage being worse. So when they start to fight again its as though they were fighting without any damages, since their damage is about equal. But this time, Goku is a SSJ.

When Goku fired the kaioken x20 he had a little more damage than Freeza, but not much more. This is a similar situation to when he turned SSJ. In fact I think its the same situation because in my opinion Goku was in worse shape than Freeza when he turned SSJ.
However, Kaioken x20 failed miserably, but the SSJ was way too much for Freeza.

So Basic SSJ > Kaioken x 20

[Raki]

I can't believe we are debating if SSJ is stronger than 20x Kaioken.

[freezamite]

Then do you believe the multiplier for SSJ is...?

I think it isn't a multiplier. In its full power, when totally mastered, it multiplies goku's base power by 50.
But that can't be applied to vegeta, who had a base power of about three times higher than goku's.

I would describe the SSJ as an adder, not a multiplier.

Although Akira Toriyama stated SSJ is a 50x multiplier and he wasn't certainly talking about "MSSJ".

And when are you referring that Vegeta was stronger than Goku? In Namek?

In namek, and then it is said after the cell saga when goku is training in the otherworld.
Look, I'm talking about what is written on the manga, Toriyama said lots of things on the interviews that then weren't true if you read the manga.
For example, toriyama also said that piccolo in buu saga would be stronger than paicuan, who was stronger than cell. And, as we can perfectly see, this wasn't true in the manga.

Toriyama refered to the SSJ and, in fact, in the manga there are no distinctions between the diferent "types" of SSJ, so you can't say he wasn't talking about the Full power because on the manga there aren't different types of SSJ, only SSJ that trained in different ways and reached differents results.

The fact is that goku in his full power SSJ has around 50 times more strength than in his normal state, but that can't be applied to vegeta or the rest of SSJ, and the SSJ form never worked as a multiplier in the series.
If you want a multiplier, then you have kaioh ken.

[Raki]

Pikkon is a filler character and therefore doesn't count.

[Senzu_Bean]

For example, toriyama also said that piccolo in buu saga would be stronger than paicuan, who was stronger than cell. And, as we can perfectly see, this wasn't true in the manga.

I doubt Akira Toriyama would know whom Paikuhan is.

[freezamite]

For example, toriyama also said that piccolo in buu saga would be stronger than paicuan, who was stronger than cell. And, as we can perfectly see, this wasn't true in the manga.

I doubt Akira Toriyama would know whom Paikuhan is.

But he said that.
In fact, in recent interviews with toriyama, when asked about some part of DB or some character of the series, he answers that "I don't remember about that" or another things similar to that.

I think toriyama didn't knew who was paikuan and it's because of that he answered that piccolo would be stronger, but the fact is that the interviews with toriyama aren't something you have to take literally if the manga can answer the question for him.

[Thanos]

D'aww, this thread is adorable.


I like your list freezamite, good job.

[Herms]

For example, toriyama also said that piccolo in buu saga would be stronger than paicuan, who was stronger than cell. And, as we can perfectly see, this wasn't true in the manga.

He never said that. That's from one of those fake "Super Otaku Magazine" interviews.

[freezamite]

freezamite

Goku is also hurt pretty badly by the time he turns SSJ. In fact I think he is as hurt as Freeza if not more. He looked in worse shape. He took a severe beating from Freeza and the genki blast was close enough to affect him. He even had to be pulled out of the water by Piccolo.

So by that time I consider their level of damage to be about equal or Goku`s damage being worse. So when they start to fight again its as though they were fighting without any damages, since their damage is about equal. But this time, Goku is a SSJ.

When Goku fired the kaioken x20 he had a little more damage than Freeza, but not much more. This is a similar situation to when he turned SSJ. In fact I think its the same situation because in my opinion Goku was in worse shape than Freeza when he turned SSJ.
However, Kaioken x20 failed miserably, but the SSJ was way too much for Freeza.

So Basic SSJ > Kaioken x 20

Nope, I mean, there is a factor there that you miss.
Goku was even more hurt than freeza, I don't have any doubt about that, and if you see my list, you will see that I already had that into account.

As I said before, the SSJ is not a multiplier, so it can't be applied as if it was a kaioh ken.
Goku was bad injured, but the rage gave him a power that allowed him to surpass his base state and transform into a basic SSJ.
It is like gohan, he had 1 or 2 units when raditz arribed, but the rage gave him a power of 1200.
In that case, the rage gave goku a power that allowed him to turn into a SSJ.
Look at my list:

Goku SSJ namek (injured after fighting against freeza but Infuriated): 2.555.500
Goku SSJ namek (Infuriated): 2.850.000 <-------- Never seen on the manga!!!

Goku SSJ namek would have had 2.850.000 if he hadn't been injured by the fight he had against freeza before the transformation, but because of those injuries, his power was lower.
Think that goku had around 300.000 when healthy, so in my list I considered he was so badly hurt that he only had a power of 5.000 before the transformation (2.850.000 - 2.555.500 = 295.000 = power lost by the injuries of goku).

If you look at that, you will understand why the SSJ is not a multiplier, but an adder.
At that point, with a bad injured goku, the basic SSJ is more useful than kaioh ken, because when you are as tired as that, to multiply your power by 20 isn't as useful as to add a power of 2.550.000
But if you're in a perfect state, then (in case of goku) to multiply your power by 20 is more useful.

That can only be applied to the basic SSJ transformation, then goku shows us that the SSJ, if mastered, has more potential than the kaioh ken because gives you much more energy, but at that point of the series, kaioh ken x20 was stronger than the basic SSJ form.

He never said that. That's from one of those fake "Super Otaku Magazine" interviews.

This was only an example I took from a spanish web of dragon ball, it seems that spanish web have no reliability.
Well, then I can put you a recent example of what I said, in a recent interview with toriyama, he said he didn't remember who was Tao Pai Pai.
And this is for sure, a real interview.

Regards.

[rereboy]

Its already been stated in this topic that the author says its a multiplier. Even if you don`t agree with the 50x multiplier that the author says, being a multiplier was never in question.

Furthermore the only thing you can say about namek, like I said, is that in the kaioken situation and in the SSJ situation Goku was in even worse state than Freeza. But SSJ was effective and kaioken x20 was not. Meaning it was stronger.
You can`t say its a multiplier or not just based on that. You say its not a multiplier based on the numbers you gathered from the Cell saga and etc. As for your way of reaching those numbers, I`ve already said what I think about it in this topic.

[freezamite]

Its already been stated in this topic that the author says its a multiplier. Even if you don`t agree with the 50x multiplier that the author says, being a multiplier was never in question.

Furthermore the only thing you can say about namek, like I said, is that in the kaioken situation and in the SSJ situation Goku was in even worse state than Freeza. But SSJ was effective and kaioken x20 was not. Meaning it was stronger.
You can`t say its a multiplier or not just based on that. You say its not a multiplier based on the numbers you gathered from the Cell saga and etc. As for your way of reaching those numbers, I`ve already said what I think about it in this topic.

It simply can't be a multiplier.
Think a little about that, if it is a multiplier, for how many times would multiply goku's strength the first time he transforms into SSJ?
Goku can't stand up by himself after the genkidama, he has no strength, so if the SSJ was a multiplyer then goku had its power multiplied at least by 1000 to fight against the injured freezer.

It is also said that the SSJ2 multiplies your power by 100, but this is bullshit.
As I said before, if the SSJ was a simple multiplier like the kaioh ken, don't you think that there would not be any difference between the same level of SSJ?
Because what is REALLY stated on the manga is the fact that the base state reaches a limit that can't surpass.
And if the SSJ is the same as a "kaioh ken x 50", then it is impossible that goku could improve his strength inside that SSJ form.
I mean, kaioh ken x20 always multiplies your strength by 20, you can't train kaioh ken x20 to make it multiply your power by 30 or 40, if you want that you should use kaioh ken x30 or kaioh ken x40.

SSJ is a transformation, and as I said before, is an adder because during all the manga it is stated that it isn't a multiplyer.

I will search this interview on the internet, because I'm sure that toriyama wanted to say that he had planed for goku SSJ to be 10 times stronger once he dominated the SSJ but at the end he ended being 50 times stronger, not that transforming into SSJ is like doing a kaioh ken x50 because then, he contradicts the manga saying that.

About the other numbers during the cell saga, the fact is that those numbers exists.
How do you explain those numbers with another list of power?

EDIT: This is what I found:

TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.

Ok, this is what I said before. Toriyama didn't say that turning into SSJ multiplies your strength by 50, he said that, in case of goku, the SSJ turned him 50 times stronger.
But this don't contradict the fact that the SSJ transformation adds power to you, not multiplies it.

EDIT: And I will say something more, this interview is the proof of what I say. Toriyama had in mind to make the SSJ even weaker than the kaioh ken x20, but at the end it became stonger.
But that shows us something, the inferior levels of SSJ (I mean, the basic SSJ) were weaker than the kaioh kens, as it is written on the manga.

Regards.

[Wojak]

EDIT: And I will say something more, this interview is the proof of what I say. Toriyama had in mind to make the SSJ even weaker than the kaioh ken x20, but at the end it became stonger.

Eh, no. That's just looking too much into it. He said that he intended Goku to be weaker, but that he changed his mind and made him stronger.
So, the end answer is that the SSJ is stronger than the Kaio-ken.

And hell, 50 times stronger can be interpreted as a 50x multiplier aswell, so there's nothing wrong with thinking about that in that way.

[freezamite]

EDIT: And I will say something more, this interview is the proof of what I say. Toriyama had in mind to make the SSJ even weaker than the kaioh ken x20, but at the end it became stonger.

Eh, no. That's just looking too much into it. He said that he intended Goku to be weaker, but that he changed his mind and made him stronger.
So, the end answer is that the SSJ is stronger than the Kaio-ken.

And hell, 50 times stronger can be interpreted as a 50x multiplier aswell, so there's nothing wrong with thinking about that in that way.

Yes, as I said before, you're right about that. The SSJ is better than the kaioh ken, this is why goku trains the SSJ instead of triying to go into further levels of kaioh ken.

About the interview, it can be interpreted as if it says that the SSJ is a multiplier, but it also can be interpreted as if it says that the SSJ is an adder but that at the end goku ended with a power 50 times higher than his base state.

But here we have the manga again, the fact that the SSJ is not a simple technique like the kaioh ken because you have not only to transform, but also to dominate the SSJ form to increase your power, makes me arrive to the conclusion that it is an adder.
Another fact is when goku is bad injured when he transforms for the first time, if it was a multiplier, then he only could have about 100.000 units when SSJ, but if you think about the SSJ as an adder, then it makes all the sense that goku SSJ in namek, even injuried, had more than 2.500.000 units.

And then there are the numbers of the cell saga, even if you don't like those numbers or the way I use them to explain what I think about DB, those numbers are there and I think my explanation to them is logical and don't contradict the manga.

Regards.

[Herms]

Eh, no. That's just looking too much into it. He said that he intended Goku to be weaker, but that he changed his mind and made him stronger.

He didn't say that he originally intended SSJ Goku to be weaker at all. Rather, he said that he drew SSJ with the sense of Goku being 10 times stronger than he had been up until then, which would presumably include the Kaio-ken.

[freezamite]

Eh, no. That's just looking too much into it. He said that he intended Goku to be weaker, but that he changed his mind and made him stronger.

He didn't say that he originally intended SSJ Goku to be weaker at all. Rather, he said that he drew SSJ with the sense of Goku being 10 times stronger than he had been up until then, which would presumably include the Kaio-ken.

I don't think so, because that would mean that goku SSJ full power would had a power 20 X 50 times greater than their base state.
20 x 50 is 1000, 300.000.000 for goku SSJ full power is absolutely impossible if you don't want to contradict the manga.

SSJ full power as an adder, that ended giving goku a power of about 50 times his base state power is the more reasonable explanation I think.

Regards.

[JulieYBM]

Text about SSj3 seems to suggest that the transformation's only bring out power the base form cannot use without transforming. Kaiô-ken might do something similar, but if that were the case human's couldn't use it (considering there wouldn't be much left to draw out).

[freezamite]

Text about SSj3 seems to suggest that the transformation's only bring out power the base form cannot use without transforming. Kaiô-ken might do something similar, but if that were the case human's couldn't use it (considering there wouldn't be much left to draw out).

Well, this is well explained on the manga during the cell saga, vegeta said he had reached the limit of his normal state, and that his power didn't raise no matter how he trained.
But I disagree about what you say about kaioh ken. Kaioh ken simply multiplies your current strength, this is why goku could surpass his base power limit without transforming.
Kaioh ken can give you a power that allow you to surpass your limit, but this is why it destroys your body when you use it, it is not your real power.